Sentinel not Importing DMR T3 System

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kruser

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Any idea why Sentinel for the x36HP models is not importing the DMR Tier 3 system linked below?

When this system was first added to the database, it had no talkgroups listed yet and I'm pretty sure Sentinel will not import those.
But... about 02/13/2017, a TG was added but the system is still not showing up in Sentinel with the latest database pulled on 02/19/2017.

I know the x36HP models will receive DMR Tier III systems as they show DT3 in the radio's display when scanning or searching a Tier III site.
I'm also listening to the site below and my 436 and 536HP models are hearing it just fine. I had to manually enter the sites info of course as it does not appear in Sentinel.

So, just wondering why this system in not being imported into Sentinel with the latest DB pull?
Perhaps Sentinel is not recognizing Tier III systems as valid systems so it skips them when the DB pulls are done on Sunday night.
NXDN systems are skipped because none of Uniden's models support NXDN yet. That makes sense but DMR Tier III systems should now be available in Sentinel as that is a supported system type.

Here's the link to the system that is not appearing in Sentinel: Warner Communications (DMR 13) Trunking System, St Louis Metro, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies

I've not checked any other Tier III sites in other states and seen if they are available in Sentinel or not.



Another thing I think would help with the RR database being updated is to allow Sentinel to pull in supported trunked systems even if there are no listed talkgroups yet. A dummy talkgroup could be created automatically by Sentinel and Sentinel could set the system to Search mode so users can watch for new talkgroups on the systems that don't have talkgroups listed yet.
This would at least allow users to get new systems into their radios via Sentinel if they are not good at manually adding a system or simply don't know how to add a new system manually.
I just thought this would be a good idea and could also help new systems get updated with newly discovered talkgroup info. More users may monitor these new systems if they see one available in Sentinel but if not available, many may not bother adding a system manually.
I don't know how hard it would be to add this into Sentinel as Sentinel would need to know the TG format for valid system types so it could create the dummy talkgroup.
I'm pretty sure Sentinel can set a trunked system to Search or Scan mode but in this case, Search mode would be what is needed so the radio displays new talkgroups as they come on the air.
Just an idea.
 

kruser

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Well, after several updates to the system in my link in the above post, Uniden's Sentinel still misses this system when it pulls the RR Database on Sunday night or early Monday mornings.
The system still does not appear in Sentinel at all for some reason even though it now has several sites and some with confirmed CCs as well as confirmed TGs.

I never received a reply to my original post so the fact the Sentinel misses this system each week is still a mystery as to why.

I don't know if there is still some missing criteria that is needed before Sentinel will see the Tier III system or perhaps a check box the DB Admin for the area needs to check or uncheck so Sentinel will see the system and include it.

I do know my 4 and 536HP models receive the system just fine as it is listed plus a TG or two that are still unlisted. I'll submit the unknown TGs if I ever figure out their use.

Since my original post, I have seen other DMR Tier III systems added to the RR DB that did appear with the next weekly DB update in Sentinel but never the system I linked to above. Some of the Tier III systems I've seen show up in Sentinel even contain less info!
 

UPMan

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Since no LCNs have been submitted/entered for that system, it is unscannable and will not be imported into HPDB.
 

KE5MC

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I looked at the sentinel database and on the RR listing for this site. My impression is it might lack the level of detail the database admin. would like to have for access from sentinel. Not so much the talk groups, but looking at the misc. system information looks like frequency and order is missing. There are several Warner Communication listing in the sentinel database and they use labels like Identified/Unidentified for TG and Confirmed/Unconfirmed for LCN. So its not like its a mistake, but more like just not enough information to include DMR13 yet.

Across 2 states and 7 counties I think it going to take sometime for enough information to be collected especially if the system is just coming online and does not have many subscribers.

With what information is available and your interest in this system and location you might be in a good position to add to what is missing.

Mike

P.S. What UpMan said! :D
 
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kruser

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Since no LCNs have been submitted/entered for that system, it is unscannable and will not be imported into HPDB.
Thanks Paul.
I knew there was probably a simple reason why it was not showing up in the Uniden HPDB version or Sentinel.

Your simple answer makes perfect sense now that you pointed it out.

I guess I'll need to do an LCN test on the system and see if I can pinpoint what is what. I do wish it were a busier system as it goes pretty quiet by the time I get home.

Will the LCN finder work on DMR T3 systems or is it all manual work?
I've had luck with it on regular TRBO sites but not much T3 around here to test with!

edit: This is one of the things I never knew about the HPDB version is the criteria needed for a system to be included in the HPDB, I guess the older HPDB for the models that don't do DMR would have less criteria needed or simply don't import systems types marked as DMR or NXDN etc.

Is there a guideline or HPDB spec sheet that lists the key or minimum info needed to make it into the two different versions of the HPDB?
That would be helpful info to have when doing a submission for a new system if it is available somewhere.

Thanks!
 
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ProScan

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I just did a test using ProScan. I can import that system into a Favorites list from RRDB. I see LCN's
 

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kruser

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With what information is available and your interest in this system and location you might be in a good position to add to what is missing.

Mike

P.S. What UpMan said! :D
Well, I don't know if I have much interest in the system but the reason for it not being picked up by the HPDB had me stumped until Paul mentioned no LCNs! I could not say how many times I've compared this system with other T3 systems that are in the HPDB and my eyes still never caught the lack of any LCN info.

I am fortunate that I should be able to copy all the known sites so I do stand a good chance of being able to determine other voice channels and hopefully an LCN order providing the LCN finder hopefully works for T3 type systems. If the finder does not work, it could take a while as the system seems to go quiet about the same time I get home from my real job.
Still be fun to figure it out though and the original FCC license data does show activity on the old narrowband FM modulated channels for at least one of the locations.
 

kruser

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I just did a test using ProScan. I can import that system into a Favorites list from RRDB. I see LCN's
Interesting Bob.
Last time I'd looked at the system, there were no LCNs listed yet but I do see some fairly recent changes so maybe the two you see were added with one of the recent updates.

Thanks for pointing these out as it gives me a starting point and something to compare against!
 

ProScan

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It's interesting that the web page doesn't show "01", "02", etc before the frequency but the RR Web Service com.radioreference.api.TrsSiteFreq definitely retrives the LCNs

{edit} I think the system is not importing because all the freqs CH ID shows as 0 and ch_id returns null.
 
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KE5MC

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It's interesting that the web page doesn't show "01", "02", etc before the frequency but the RR Web Service com.radioreference.api.TrsSiteFreq definitely retrives the LCNs

{edit} I think the system is not importing because all the freqs CH ID shows as 0 and ch_id returns null.
Or a LCN is assigned by default if not already assigned in the database. Playing in sentinel with a DMR favorite a blank LCN throws an error.
 
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KE5MC

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Some of the LCNs are not in order such as

Shiloh, St. Clair, IL
854.7625 LCN 3
854.7625 LCN 2
859.6875 LCN 1
We know by confirmation (UpMan) that DMR13 is not in Sentinel Database because it lacks LCNs. I see in Proscan that prior to the import for a known system with LCNs that information is not shown.

I know that editing a known system with assigned LCNs the expected value is 0 to 4094 or an error is thrown.

If we import a system known not to have assigned LCNs the import utility will have to do something with unassigned (blank) LCNs. It would be poor programing practice to move data to a target with missing information that causes error during manual edits. You end up with a corrupt database and likely not know were the problem is.

I think a question to the author of Proscan will likely shed some light on this and he seems responsive to questions.

I agree the order is not low to high frequency, but in this case of two the same and one different there is order in that the single get a 1 and the two that are the same get 2/3.
 
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ProScan

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We know by confirmation (UpMan) that DMR13 is not in Sentinel Database because it lacks LCNs.
The LCNs are there. They just don't show on the web page. I don't think default LCNs are created anywhere.

I see in Proscan that prior to the import for a known system with LCNs that information is not shown.
Where you see that? The LCNs are imported from RRDB using the TrsSiteFreq lcn api.

{edit}
The TrsSiteFreq ch_id api returns null on all freqs so that's where I think the problem is.
 

UPMan

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DMR Tier III systems calculate target frequencies based on the LCN similar to the way Moto 3600 and P25 systems calculate. The chance of the LCNs being 1, 2, 3 for a DMR T3 is pretty slim.

I'd load the latest test firmware (1.11.27), program the system using any random LCNs, then run LCN finder on it.
 

UPMan

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Also, this particular system does not have LCNs assigned. Our data puller throws an exception for every frequency on this system as:

Code:
4/16/2017 10:31:07 PM ID=55 Deleted Site frequency : Detected Out of LCN range.     [Resource]     TFreqId=0      [System]     TrunkId=9122     Warner Communications (DMR 13)     Item=LCN     Value= 
 [URL="http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=9122"]Warner Communications (DMR 13) Trunking System, St Louis Metro, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies[/URL]
In the above, the "Value" should not be null...
 

KE5MC

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The LCNs are there. They just don't show on the web page. I don't think default LCNs are created anywhere.


Where you see that? The LCNs are imported from RRDB using the TrsSiteFreq lcn api.

{edit}
The TrsSiteFreq ch_id api returns null on all freqs so that's where I think the problem is.

TrsSiteFreq ch_id api <-- don't know what that is/does. I am using the ProScan import option from RRDB with subscription.

If the nulls are LCNs related to the frequencies, I think we are on the same track with a different perspective. I believe they are null because they are not known yet and in the database they really are not present. The import routine (programer) is aware nulls in the LCN of the database are not good. From Sentinel we don't get the information because it is incomplete. From RRDB we can import but are protected from corrupting the database with null information when it needs to be 0-4095 regardless if the information is accurate.

Maybe I have it all wrong. If anything maybe there is a nugget of information for those listening to DMR and where they get the information from.

P.S. I'm going let other in the know solider on. My ignorance is showing. :)
 

ProScan

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This is what i see in the API

<xsd:all>
<xsd:element name="lcn" type="xsd:int"/> 1,2,3 may not be correct numbers but they exist
<xsd:element name="freq" type="xsd:decimal"/>
<xsd:element name="use" type="xsd:string"/>
<xsd:element name="colorCode" type="xsd:string"/>
<xsd:element name="ch_id" type="xsd:string"/> all nulls {edit} I think this is throwing exemptions each frequency and perhaps can be ignored so system can be imported
</xsd:all>
</xsd:complexType>
 
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UPMan

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