Serious HomePatrol Concerns - Is it really ready for prime time?

[blantonl]

If it is a lost cause, I will send it back

Send it back. It appears that our efforts and process doesn't match your expectations, so I'm calling it a lost cause.

 

[SOFA_KING]

Phil, once again, you have made a mistake and yet instead of submitting a request to have the tags changed, you rant about it here.

I never touched the Service Tags on those talkgroups. They were set as Multi Talk and Law Talk a long time ago. I updated the Mode Tag and the Alpha Tag since they were never set when those talkgroups were entered into the system.

The only Service Tags I touched were the ones for the talkgroups that were labelled as Other.



Once again Phil, I never changed anything.



I just went through the submission list for the system. It appears you sent in some updates back in 2003 under a different user name.

Then there's a submission from you a couple of days ago.

Nothing between 2003 and 2010.

I'm happy to make the changes to the system if you're willing to send them in but stop assuming that things that are incorrect are my doing. They're not. They've probably existed since 2003 and you've had ample opportunity to submit corrections but instead you rant about it here and blame it all on me.

All the DB Admin's are happy to help out. All it takes is a polite request using the Submission Form and we'll make the changes to help you out.

Mike,

Just as a test I created my own favorites list and merged my fed local list with whatever the HP selected for 0 range at my house. Then I went in and looked at what needed to be avoided. I started going down the list and got up to my county fire TG list (in 3 different groups). I audited what you changed. You omitted 12 TG's from the last database rev. (I saved it, so I can see). Some of the most used TGs, like Fire 1 and EMS 1 were not there after your last revision (a loss). I merged the three non-existent "zones" into one using ACR Patrol and added the 12 missing TGs back in. Then I changed the Service Type to reflect correct usage, since it was changed to something meaningless on the last go-around. I put them in order. This is the way it should look (see picture). I have not gone beyond that yet, so there might be much more...I don't know yet.

I know this is a huge amount of work, and I didn't expect you to start changing stuff I never sent to you to change. UPMan said here that you thought this was the worst system you have seen before you did any changes. My attempts to get it right are meeting with your denial and resistance. I'm sorry you don't like the public exposure, but people who own these, or are thinking of owning these have a right to know what to expect. I'm shocked. I offered help (again). I feel like I'm getting snubbed here. Is it the money? Do you have a problem with me because I am catching these quality problems, reporting them, and it might be causing a loss of sales? That is not my intention...I bought one and wanted it to work. I think Uniden did a fairly good job on the design and concept.

So Lindsay, you don't want my help? If that is the case, that is a shame. I'm pretty good at this, and I have much to offer. I wanted to have a private PM or e-mail exchange with you, and did reach out, but had no private PM or mail from you, and no way to directly reach you other than here. Everything I have posted has been honest and on-point without going into personal boundaries. Maybe you would like me to go away. Is that it?

 

[KE4ZNR]

Sofa_King:
Quick question: do you ever admit fault? That there is a chance that
you might be mistaken? That maybe, just maybe, you might have overlooked something in this whole situation?
The rest of us see it....I just hope when you finally do you will
be man enough to apologize to all around.
MikeOxlong is totally innocent of the charges you level against him.
Marshall KE4ZNR

 

[UPMan]

Ok, I think that there are a few problems with this entire thread...I'm going to suggest that we close this thread and continue parts of this discussion elsewhere.

I know that things "said" on the web really cannot be unsaid, but one difficulty those of us who have labored so hard both on HomePatrol-1 specifically and on the database in general is just getting past this thread's title and initial tone. Everyone enters this thread on the defensive...and one reason I have contributed very little to this thread is that I find it difficult to get past that initial title and tone (which are undeserved by those who it appears to be directed toward).

I know that you see yourself as an expert on your local area, and you probably are. However, an admin cannot take a statement of such as definitive evidence (else you'd see real chaos). While I was admin I saw several very incorrect submissions by people who I knew were experts in their region (but they didn't understand the method or meaning of some of the database terms...once given good direction, their next submissions were bordering on the ideal). The evidence an admin must rely on is in the quality of submission, the willingness to work with the admin with civility, and the patience to work through the process.

 

[SOFA_KING]

Ok, I think that there are a few problems with this entire thread...I'm going to suggest that we close this thread and continue parts of this discussion elsewhere.

I know that things "said" on the web really cannot be unsaid, but one difficulty those of us who have labored so hard both on HomePatrol-1 specifically and on the database in general is just getting past this thread's title and initial tone. Everyone enters this thread on the defensive...and one reason I have contributed very little to this thread is that I find it difficult to get past that initial title and tone (which are undeserved by those who it appears to be directed toward).

I know that you see yourself as an expert on your local area, and you probably are. However, an admin cannot take a statement of such as definitive evidence (else you'd see real chaos). While I was admin I saw several very incorrect submissions by people who I knew were experts in their region (but they didn't understand the method or meaning of some of the database terms...once given good direction, their next submissions were bordering on the ideal). The evidence an admin must rely on is in the quality of submission, the willingness to work with the admin with civility, and the patience to work through the process.

Closing this thread, or deleting it, would be a huge mistake. It would say loud and clear that the staff has something to hide. There is nothing derogatory about this thread...it is just an in-depth study of the device and how it works. If you can't take the honesty here, then what is this forum really for? Selling units and subscriptions? Think, guys...think. You're reputation is on the line.

Well, I can understand the hard work, I really can. I do it myself...on my own stuff. And I did an honest job calling it out exactly as it happened in my case, and did not deviate in any way from the truth. I tried to support the product and concept many times, but I'm not going to give anyone a pass if something didn't work, or someone made a mistake. NO ONE is perfect. I know that. I'm not perfect! I strive to do the best I can under the circumstances. I really get into radio systems...that is why I'm an engineer. The original submission I made in 2002 was direct from templates, but the names on the templates would not mean much to anyone, as they were limited in space. The list was edited by other people (I have no idea who) and it had some new stuff added, but also some bad errors introduced. That is part of the problem with the RR database in general; not everyone is submitting quality information, and I know you can't blame anyone who works for RR for that. Sloppy mistakes, on the other hand, yes...you can. That appears to be an issue.

The box is a good idea...the data is questionable. The more I look at what is going on there, the more I see problems. Now I don't want to arbitrarly "trash" the whole project, but I wonder the best way to fix all those errors. I made some attempts to communicate. Maybe not the best, but I'm thinking of what would be the best. Maybe my ARC Patrol files with corrections are the best way to submit a BIG batch of corrections (I'm looking at that now) so I don't do millions of little tickets. You see, that is too labor intensive. Maybe a specialized form in the format of an editable file is a good idea, or maybe just use ARC. I'm still trying to be constructive even though I feel like some of you are snubbing me.

So I can say I tried. It is evident all over this thread. You have honest in-depth testing going on here with well-documented examples to support my claims. Don't like that? Sorry. It is what it is...the truth. Thank you for at least taking a look. I hope some day that it can work as the concept design claims. I think it was a good idea...just not practical under the circumstances.

Happy New Year!

 

[pacrat551]

Mike,

I audited what you changed. You omitted 12 TG's from the last database rev. (I saved it, so I can see). Some of the most used TGs, like Fire 1 and EMS 1 were not there after your last revision (a loss). I merged the three non-existent "zones" into one using ACR Patrol and added the 12 missing TGs back in.

From a total outside perspective, can you tell us which 12 TG were omitted? The 2 you describe above (Fire 1 and EMS 1) are clearly seen in the database.

DEC HEX Mode Alpha Tag Description Tag
1328 053 A FD EMS 1 FD EMS 1 EMS Dispatch
1456 05b A FD Tac 3 FD Tac 3 Fire-Tac
1488 05d A FD Tac 4 FD Tac 4 Fire-Tac
1520 05f A FD Fire 1 FD Fire 1 Fire-Talk
1552 061 A FD Ops FD Ops Fire-Talk
1744 06d A FD Trn 1 FD Trn 1 Fire-Talk
1808 071 A FD Maint FD Maint Fire-Talk
1904 077 A FD Tac 5 FD Tac 5 Fire-Tac
2160 087 A FD Trn 2 FD Trn 2 Fire-Talk
2192 089 A FD Trn 3 FD Trn 3 Fire-Talk

It would help everyone if you would provide a little more detail.

Out of curiosity, I loaded my HP with the location set as Fort Pierce, FL and easily found the St. Lucie County Public Safety system with all the talkgroups as listed in the RR database

 

[wise871]

Why not just submit the new updated data so it can be corrected and give the description something more useful so it displays properly like the example you show. If I missed that you already have then I apologize. This is a long topic to keep up with. Wouldn't that solve some of the problem?

The admins have been doing a great job keeping up with the updates in my area. Very seldom have I seen them change anything I have submitted. If there is something that I feel is incorrect, I’ll resubmit with a detailed explanation and usually 100% of the time they make the corrections. They rely on us to provide them with the most accurate information since we live and monitor our areas. Instead of arguing, we should be working together. Get to know your Admins. I communicate with several on a continuous base. Since we’ve built up a good working relationship they pretty much know that data I submit is pretty much spot on from my past history. It also helps if you put it in a format that they can easily work with. There’s nothing worse than try to figure out what a user submitted and they have to spend extra time trying to figure it out.

 

[randybcd396t]

Your Question: Serious HomePatrol Concerns - Is it really ready for prime time?

My Answer: Yes it is ready for prime time, and it gets better every day.

 

[4436time]

I have an HP-1 and would hate to see this thread closed since I believe the OP is well intentioned. But I think it would be good idea for him to provide an outline of the issues since they don't all appear to be HP-1 specific. Not everyone reading this will understand it or be willing to take the time to. Nor will they be able to separate out the HP-1 specific issues from the ones impacting most scanner makes or models, and you don't want prospective HP-1 buyers just assuming it's inundated with problems when it really isn't.
To take it a step further, I think it's a good opportunity to turn this into something useful by perhaps having it serve as the beginnings of a method for developing a future checklist (what to look for) for end-users who are interested in the same level of DB accuracy as SK is. Does such a thing exist and if not wouldn't it make the DBA's lives easier? I believe SK is actually onto something here and rather than shooting it down, how about using it as an opportunity to develop it into something useful for not just HP-1 users, but everyone? If the HP-1 is the wave of the future, and I believe it is, I think a system like this will come in real handy. In fact, maybe it should even be developed in the form of a web-enabled end-user interface with LOV's for submitting "consistent" changes that are saved to a single back-end database accessible by area DBA's so they don't have to spend all their time compiling information from the many different sources. It's going to be a monumental task moving forward and the sooner a tool like this is developed the better off everyone is going to be.

 

[mikewazowski]

From a total outside perspective, can you tell us which 12 TG were omitted? The 2 you describe above (Fire 1 and EMS 1) are clearly seen in the database.

Thanks pacrat and Wise871, I know I didn't delete anything that was properly identified and you've proved it. The list of talkgroups posted by Wise871 before Phil's post clearly show the talkgroups there.

All I did was add in the Mode Tag and change a bunch of the "Other" Service Tags if the talkgroup was identified and the tag could be set. I did not delete any of the existing talkgroups except the ones labelled "For Future Use" or otherwise unid'd and I did not change any of the Service Tags that were defined as anything but Other. This includes the Multi Tac and Multi Talk ones that you are complaining about.

I moved the identified Astro IMBE subcategory talkgroups into their proper talkgroups.

I did not split any of the Fire Zones either.

Phil, I don't mind public exposure at all. Everything you've accused me of has been proven to be false. The changes I've made have done nothing to cause you any grief and all were as per the Database Admin handbook.

The only sloppy mistakes that have been made have been yours yet you insist on placing the blame on others.

Man up, admit you're wrong and sell your Home Patrol if it causes you that much trouble.

 

[randybcd396t]

I have an HP-1 and would hate to see this thread closed since I believe the OP is well intentioned. But I think it would be good idea for him to provide an outline of the issues since they don't all appear to be HP-1 specific. Not everyone reading this will understand it or be willing to take the time to. Nor will they be able to separate out the HP-1 specific issues from the ones impacting most scanner makes or models, and you don't want prospective HP-1 buyers just assuming it's inundated with problems when it really isn't.
To take it a step further, I think it's a good opportunity to turn this into something useful by perhaps having it serve as the beginnings of a method for developing a future checklist (what to look for) for end-users who are interested in the same level of DB accuracy as SK is. Does such a thing exist and if not wouldn't it make the DBA's lives easier? I believe SK is actually onto something here and rather than shooting it down, how about using it as an opportunity to develop it into something useful for not just HP-1 users, but everyone? If the HP-1 is the wave of the future, and I believe it is, I think a system like this will come in real handy. In fact, maybe it should even be developed in the form of a web-enabled end-user interface with LOV's for submitting "consistent" changes that are saved to a single back-end database accessible by area DBA's so they don't have to spend all their time compiling information from the many different sources. It's going to be a monumental task moving forward and the sooner a tool like this is developed the better off everyone is going to be.

I think the thread should be closed.

I have read every word of every post in this thread. I won't argue that there is good information here, but most people are not going to read every word of every post to find it. The starting premise is that the HP1 is not ready for prime time and the posts are riddled with threats that the unit will be returned. And the issue is not even close to clear unless you read everything. Is it the device? Is it the database in general? Is it the database in Florida? Is it the admin? Is it the update process? Is it expectations?

Maybe I'm fortunate. While there are things I would like to see change over time, I like the device. The database in my area is well maintained and gets better every day. I have no regrets.

 

[blantonl]

I'm closing the thread. Constructive criticism is welcome and encouraged, but in this case the OP has decided to stand on a soap box and criticize up and down the board without providing anything really constructive.

If there are database inconstancies or areas where something needs to be updated, please submit the changes so our team can get on it. telling us that is "too labor intensive" isn't constructive.