Serious HomePatrol Concerns - Is it really ready for prime time?

[SOFA_KING]

Administrator MikeOxlong just worked my submission. He also cleaned up the trunked system. In his words, "It was probably one of the worst systems I have ever seen." I let him know that you had a submission in, too, in case he missed it (or another admin "owned" it before he could get to it, which would make it disappear from the "to-do" list).

I'll do a special dB pull tonight. Just for you!

Paul, no matter how harsh my comments may sound, I'm pointing out what I see because I care. And You're ok in my book, Paul! It may not sound that way because I'm critical. I admire a well designed radio...maybe why I like Moto stuff so much (not all...but the good ones).

I'm in PM exchange with Mike now. I'm getting a bit of pushback on my lat/lons, and I don't know why. They are PERFECT, as you can see from my map above. You DB guys need to trust us and not over-rule us. I know what I'm doing. Please don't waste my time.

Paul, I just tried the quick frequency entry feature. It is an FBI freq up around 167. I do not see a mode selection for P25....only FM/NFM/AM. Will it decode P25 when it is set to FM? And if so, what will it do on an encrypted P25 signal? Mask it?? The reason I ask is because even if I don't like database scanning, I might keep this box for my own scan list with my federal stuff...if it works for me.

Thanks again, Paul.

EDIT: Just tried to PM you...no go. I was the one who submitted the original county TRS direct from actual templates many years ago when the system came on-line. The original data couldn't be more accurate. I noticed someone had later added updates and changed things around. That is when it got messy. And I think I will have to audit it all over again and submitt a corrected TG list. I can't control what other people submit. Just an FYI.

 

[fullmoon]

The delay issue seems to be mentioned a lot...

 

[UPMan]

You might check out my blogs on location info to be sure you are in sync w/RR's policy (lat/lon/range should define the municipality, not the receivable range, for example). It is difficult to tell what the "circles" look like and what agencies each is for from your above picture.

Getting Better Every Day!

How it Works: Location, Location, Location

I believe P25 decode will be automatic when detected if you select FM or NFM (but have not tried this, myself).

 

[SOFA_KING]

You might check out my blogs on location info to be sure you are in sync w/RR's policy (lat/lon/range should define the municipality, not the receivable range, for example). It is difficult to tell what the "circles" look like from your above picture.

Getting Better Every Day!

How it Works: Location, Location, Location

I believe P25 decode will be automatic when detected if you select FM or NFM (but have not tried this, myself).

I'm right on target with the policy. I got them set tight and perfect. I took the time to measure each corner to corner of the jurisdiction boundary of each county or dept in the county, and set the mark in dead center. Any overlap is due to the shape of the boundary, but it is set to a hair over minimum to cover the area. You can't get it better than that.

I have to tell you though...something about this process leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If it becomes a struggle, I'm not going to waste my time. I can't PM you or Lindsay (both blocked), so I have no other place to communicate this. If Lindsay would be so kind to send me an e-mail, I would offer more.

 

[UPMan]

You could also communicate through HomePatrol forums. But, as you see, I read both places.

For general database issues (like general policies), there is a forum here dedicated to such discussions.

My / Lindsay's problem is "too many mouths, only two ears." I turned off PM because I was inundated with PMs asking questions that fell into two categories:

1) I could not answer in any public or private forum (i.e. "What is the next product going to be and when is it going to come out?")

2) Many people could answer in a public forum (i.e. "How do I program xxx?").

I do still get direct emails, and I try to answer them, but I always include in my response a request to follow up in a public forum. I received a direct email of Category 2 last Wednesday at a little after 6 pm....which I saw and answered Monday afternoon (we had a 4-day Xmas break). I'll probably get an email into my work account this evening...which I will see on Tuesday (with any luck...but I'll also be very busy with last-minute prep for CES, so I can't guarantee that luck will hold).

 

[SOFA_KING]

You could also communicate through HomePatrol forums. But, as you see, I read both places.

For general database issues (like general policies), there is a forum here dedicated to such discussions.

My / Lindsay's problem is "too many mouths, only two ears." I turned off PM because I was inundated with PMs asking questions that fell into two categories:

1) I could not answer in any public or private forum (i.e. "What is the next product going to be and when is it going to come out?")

2) Many people could answer in a public forum (i.e. "How do I program xxx?").

I do still get direct emails, and I try to answer them, but I always include in my response a request to follow up in a public forum. I received a direct email of Category 2 last Wednesday at a little after 6 pm....which I saw and answered Monday afternoon (we had a 4-day Xmas break). I'll probably get an email into my work account this evening...which I will see on Tuesday (with any luck...but I'll also be very busy with last-minute prep for CES, so I can't guarantee that luck will hold).

Understood...you are a busy man and very dedicated to your job. Thank you for your time.

And HAPPY NEW YEAR!

 

[EJB]

Wirelessly posted (LG-GR500FD/V10a Teleca/Q7.1 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 UP.Link/6.5.1.0.0)

Attn: UPman. I live in a region (county) called Halton. When I typed in my postal code (L7T 3Z2) and the systems that came up with that code were for the region to the east of us Peel. I can barely hear Peel and this was with the range as low as 10 miles. The Halton Region EDACS system should be the main system that should come up with the range not Peel's. To me it doesnt really matter, I built favourites myself from the Sentinel but if you are selling a scanner that can run accurately just from entering a postal code you might want to correct this. Thanks, Eric.

 

[SOFA_KING]

Well I tried writing some fed gov stuff to the HP to see what it would do. Want the good news, or the bad news first?

Let's start with the good. P25 encryption masking (mute)! Yes! Just a short blurb before the encrypted P25 is covered up. It will stay on the channel even though you don't hear anything, and that is a good thing because often the reply can be "in the clear". Now we need just a bit more SCAN DELAY. So that is a win. I hope the database guys are not skipping talkgroups in a TRS that are mixed encrypted and in-the-clear. With the mask feature there is no need to bypass anything, unless it is REALLY 100% encrypted...like a "strapped" channel in the radio for full time enc. Even then, people drop keys and you might hear some ITC.

Now for the bad news, and this is a deal-breaker for me unless there is a workaround. I may send it packing if there will be no possibility of a fix for this issue. The problem is that P25 conventional reception requires a NAC code to be programmed for P25 only (and please, no open CSQ). If you do not enter a NAC, it scans as CSQ...and there is that paging intermod I really need to filter out...yes, the scanner has intermod issues on two of my channels so far. My GRE scanners let me set a channel to only receive P25 with no NAC specified...Like "digital CSQ" on a Moto radio. Unless I'm missing something, I see no way to do what my GRE and Moto radios do. And this is why it is a needed feature; Some agencies use multiple NAC codes on a single frequency. IRS, CPB, FBI, BP, ICE, Park Service, FPS, TSA...just to name a few. The only way to hear the possibility of any one of the NAC codes they use on the HomePatrol (unless I missed something) is to scan a list of channels programmed with the same frequency but with different NAC codes, or scan CSQ. CSQ is not an option in metro areas or near my home. I only scan CSQ if there is no tone, code, or P25 filtering at all, even then I "avoid" them when near transmitter towers. These are all over Florida, so the noise is an issue on CSQ.

What is needed is a NAC 0 (zero) setting that will keep the receiver responding only to P25 reception (only) and allow any NAC code to open the receiver (like "digital CSQ" on the Motos). UPMan, is that a posible firmware update you could implement? . Without that feature I have to program up to 15 NAC codes on the same frequency just to listen to the IRS CI repeater channel, as they have been known to use up to that many different NACs. The DHS common channel is another that could be any of several NAC codes. Or the DOJ common, or several BP ICE freqs. If you start entering the same freqs with different NACs in a long list, you waste scan time, and if the dept uses a NAC you do not know, you won't here them. I really want to hear all digital (non-encrypted) transmissions and not miss anything. I would think this is a simple fix, so can it be done?

So I created a list of my local fed gov stuff, and I want to add these to whatever the database loaded for the area I'm in, and I see no way to do this. It gives me a choice of "use full database" or one of "my favorites"...not both at the same time. I see a way to add the database stuff for ONE area to my favorites list, but not the other way around. Am I missing something here? This is backwards. I don't want to add database channels to "my favorites list". I want to add my list to whatever the database picks for that area. Suppose I'm driving through Florida and I'm using GPS as I go through, county by county. I want to add my Florida federal list to whatever the HP loads so I will always hear my fed stuff even if the local stuff is changing. Can this be done? If not, why not? I really don't want the HP messing up my favorites list. If this is not possible, this is also a "deal-breaker".

I see my local area was updated in Sentinel. Thank you, but I don't know who makes these decisions about how this is done, because it is messed up in other ways that it was not before. And stuff was deleted that was very important...like my EOC digital TGs. How many times do we have to go through this, guys? And why are you tagging all the SO and PD dispatch channels as "LAW TALK"? SO Road Patrol is DISPATCH. And you have regular PD dispatch TGs in Martin County showing SWAT. uhhh...who is doing this?

Look...if I take the time to "spell it all out" in the same format as how Sentinel shows it, and I give it to you in Excel format...just the same way you would view it, will you update my info verbatim??? I think you database guys think you know more than you actually do. If you can't do the updates right after I hand them to you, why should I bother to hand them to you?

I'm not real happy with this whole deal. The box is sort of ok, if they address the "deal-breaker" issues I have, but if there is no hope, and the DB guys keep messing up, I see no value in the thing. Too much headache and not enough performance to make it worthwhile. Yeah...it makes noise wherever you go, but is it the right noise? "Me thinks" not.

I have a few more days, but I'm not too pleased so far. I'll try some other stuff and see what happens before I send it back.

Phil

 

[Bob_61]

Can you guys get to the point? This rambling is useless and .............................................?

 

[K7CAR]

I appreciate the thorough look see and it confirms my misgivings about this scanner. Phil, you can't make a Ferrari out of VW no matter how you tweak it......

 

[NDRADIONUT]

Send it back !!

 

[commstar]

Please be patient, this is a process, we are witnessing the genesis of Home Patrol saving the hobby. Our grandchildren will study this moment. Mike

 

[SOFA_KING]

Please be patient, this is a process, we are witnessing the genesis of Home Patrol saving the hobby. Our grandchildren will study this moment. Mike

I hear ya, Mike. Besides my two Uniden operational issues I called "deal-breakers" above (plus the scan delay issue), the scanner has very good feature ideas in it. The concept is a good one. I can visualize how well it could work with those firmware fixes and an accurate database. In concept, it is a great idea.

Just for laughs, I hooked up the GPS at my house and set the range to 0. I opened the squelch and waited for the first channel without CTCSS/DCS/NAC to hang with noise. It was a state park channel over 200 miles away. I hit "avoid", and the next park some 500 miles away now hung the scanner (more avoid). This went on for every park in the state (avoid avoid avoid). Then a massive amount of channels from outdated stuff (not in use anymore...and from areas very far away...not ever used in my area) popped up and needed to be locked out. I would say HALF of the channels that loaded on ZERO RANGE were bogus like this, so it is a messed up database. Now how am I going to get all this mess cleaned up? I'm supposed to submit a ticket for each channel??? See...it just is not practical.

IF the data was good, and the scanner issues were fixed (should be very easy to fix those), I would LOVE this thing. In concept it "could" work, but these are serious issues. If I could fix the database issues myself, I would "go to town" on Florida (literally, as I work all over the whole state), AND IT WOULD BE RIGHT, because I am that type of person...I like a perfect scan list and I want this thing to work as good as it can. I would weed out that old outdated stuff, add CTCSS where I know they are, and get every county and city/town lat/lon tight so a ZERO range setting yields only what you want to hear when you are THERE in that county/city/town (given the boundary shape issue and overlap because of it).

So who can I talk to about this? I can't PM or e-mail Lindsay, and he is not chiming in here. Do you want my help?

 

[NDRADIONUT]

Send it back !!

 

[SOFA_KING]

Send it back !!

hahaha

I have a few more days left. Let's see if the staff here wants my help (offer above). If I can fix my state, I might keep it. If it is a lost cause, I will send it back.

 

[mikewazowski]

Phil, let's clear a few things up regarding your submissions.

The updated lat/long you sent was for the Counties trunking system. There was nothing wrong with it's lat/long. Your coordinates matched the existing lat/long almost perfectly.

UPMan's submission was for the actual County. The existing coordinates put the County way north of where it should have been. I suspect you meant your submission to be for the County and not the trunking system. The County has been corrected thanks to UPMan's submission.

A lot of the P25 talkgroups on the County system were tagged as "Other". The original submission did not identify what a lot of these talkgroups were used for and a lot were tagged as "Future Use". The ones that were identified should have been added to their proper Subcategory and the others have been rejected until more detailed information is received. .

The other system you mentioned was also fixed by myself a couple of months ago. I went back through the original submissions and it was never made clear which talkgroups were analog or digital. With the help of an HP-1 user, we got most of it figured out. A submission from yesterday helped clean up the Mode tag on two more of the talkgroups.

Is the database perfect? Certainly not.

With help from users like yourself, it gets better every day.

If a scanner that relies on the database isn't cutting it for you, then you should return it and put your money towards a scanner that you can program just the way you like it.

 

[SOFA_KING]

Phil, let's clear a few things up regarding your submissions.

The updated lat/long you sent was for the Counties trunking system. There was nothing wrong with it's lat/long. Your coordinates matched the existing lat/long almost perfectly.

UPMan's submission was for the actual County. The existing coordinates put the County way north of where it should have been. I suspect you meant your submission to be for the County and not the trunking system. The County has been corrected thanks to UPMan's submission.

A lot of the P25 talkgroups on the County system were tagged as "Other". The original submission did not identify what a lot of these talkgroups were used for and a lot were tagged as "Future Use". The ones that were identified should have been added to their proper Subcategory and the others have been rejected until more detailed information is received. .

The other system you mentioned was also fixed by myself a couple of months ago. I went back through the original submissions and it was never made clear which talkgroups were analog or digital. With the help of an HP-1 user, we got most of it figured out. A submission from yesterday helped clean up the Mode tag on two more of the talkgroups.

Is the database perfect? Certainly not.

With help from users like yourself, it gets better every day.

If a scanner that relies on the database isn't cutting it for you, then you should return it and put your money towards a scanner that you can program just the way you like it.

Mike,

Please hear me, and try and understand. You are making decisions and changing things from Canada. I live here, and I know these frequencies and systems because I have a few high-end scanners (and a XTS3000 on my county TRS with a legit ID from the admin) that are fine-tuned for my areas of travel (up to a point...out of memory). What on earth were you doing when you assigned "MULTI TALK" and "LAW TALK" to everything in my county system? Where are the DISPATCH tags? And I know someone broke up the county Fire District into three zones, but there are NO ZONES. You just need one fire subgroup, not three. YOU can't second guess this stuff and change it the way "you think" it should be. For every positive change you made, you made a mistake that renders the selection and avoid features useless.

I appreciate the workload you may be under. Thanks for pitching in, but LISTEN to what I'm sending you and stop overriding the accurate information I'm taking the time to provide you. IF you guys want me to clean up Florida, I'm offering my direct help, but I can't be fighting with you guys because you won't listen. And there is so much garbage in the FL database with 0.0000 lat/lons that needs to be taken out that I can't submit a ticket for every one of them...it is just going to be ridicules to even think I could.

And please...don't tell me what to do with returning or buying my scanners. I can, and will, make my own decisions on that.

So, do you want to do this right? Or do you want me to give up because you won't listen. The offer is there!, but not forever.

Going once...

 

[mikewazowski]

What on earth were you doing when you assigned "MULTI TALK" and "LAW TALK" to everything in my county system?

Phil, once again, you have made a mistake and yet instead of submitting a request to have the tags changed, you rant about it here.

I never touched the Service Tags on those talkgroups. They were set as Multi Talk and Law Talk a long time ago. I updated the Mode Tag and the Alpha Tag since they were never set when those talkgroups were entered into the system.

The only Service Tags I touched were the ones for the talkgroups that were labelled as Other.

Where are the DISPATCH tags? And I know someone broke up the county Fire District into three zones, but there are NO ZONES. You just need one fire subgroup, not three. YOU can't second guess this stuff and change it the way "you think" it should be. For every positive change you made, you made a mistake that renders the selection and avoid features useless.

Once again Phil, I never changed anything.

Thanks for pitching in, but LISTEN to what I'm sending you and stop overriding the accurate information I'm taking the time to provide you. IF you

I just went through the submission list for the system. It appears you sent in some updates back in 2003 under a different user name.

Then there's a submission from you a couple of days ago.

Nothing between 2003 and 2010.

I'm happy to make the changes to the system if you're willing to send them in but stop assuming that things that are incorrect are my doing. They're not. They've probably existed since 2003 and you've had ample opportunity to submit corrections but instead you rant about it here and blame it all on me.

All the DB Admin's are happy to help out. All it takes is a polite request using the Submission Form and we'll make the changes to help you out.

 

[wise871]

I take it the Fire District should look something like this? I'm sure the description could be expanded more on some like using Fire instead of FD. I did examples below. If Mike is willing to help you out, then I would go ahead and copy the area in notepad and add the tags you know it should be and it will be fixed. Mike has always been good about working with submitters.


St. Lucie County Fire District Talkgroups

DEC HEX Mode Alpha Tag Description Tag
1264 04f A FD Com 1 FireCom 1 Fire Dispatch
1296 051 A FD Com 2 FireCom 2 Fire Dispatch
1392 057 A FD Tac 1 Fire Tac 1 Fire-Tac
1424 059 A FD Tac 2 Fire Tac 2 Fire-Tac
1456 05b A FD Tac 3 Fire Tac 3 Fire-Tac
1488 05d A FD Tac 4 Fire Tac 4 Fire-Tac
1904 077 A FD Tac 5 Fire Tac 5 Fire-Tac
1936 079 A FD Tac 6 Fire Tac 6 Fire-Tac
1968 07b A FD Tac 7 Fire Tac 7 Fire-Tac
2000 07d A FD Tac 8 Fire Tac 8 Fire-Tac
2032 07f A FD Tac 9 Fire Tac 9 Fire-Tac
1520 05f A FD Fire 1 Fire 1 Fire-Talk
2096 083 A FD Fire 2 Fire 2 Fire-Talk
1744 06d A FD Trn 1 Fire Training 1 Fire-Talk
2160 087 A FD Trn 2 Fire Training 2 Fire-Talk
2192 089 A FD Trn 3 Fire Training 3 Fire-Talk
1552 061 A FD Ops Fire Operations Fire-Talk
1808 071 A FD Maint Fire Maintenance Fire-Talk
1328 053 A FD EMS 1 EMS 1 EMS Dispatch
1360 055 A FD EMS 2 EMS 2 EMS Dispatch
1680 069 A FD Med 1 Fire Medical 1 EMS-Tac
1712 06b A FD Med 2 Fire Medical 2 EMS-Tac
2128 085 A FD Med 3 Fire Medical 3 EMS-Tac
1616 065 A FD LMC LMC Fire Academy Fire-Tac
1648 067 A FD PSL FD PSL Fire-Tac <----Not sure what PSL stands for.
1840 073 A FD IRMH Fire - Indian River Memorial Hospital Fire-Tac
1872 075 A FD MMMC Fire - Martin Memorial Medical Center Fire-Tac

 

[guitarbrian30]

for sale yet?

sofa-- Is that unit for sale yet?

Thought I should speak up before you go through the hassle of sending it back.

Although I am GRE kinda guy.... wait I should wait for that new GRE unit to be released. Can you hold your scanner a little bit longer!

Tons of new information I am guessing is coming from the trenches and into the database. It will get better as the squeaking wheel gets oiled.

As with all new things it takes time for some fine tuning. In this case sounds like the skies packed with tons of radio clutter. Here in South Dakota we have it easy! Just as I remake my scan lists every other month as new information is being added and subtracted to the database. I let my scanner run wild and look for new things to help keep the admin busy! SShhhh do not tell them that.

On the best note for all of us! We are not actually entering all this data into our units. My first scanner was a Pro-39. 200 channels entering them all by hand.. Oh my that took time. Then toss a few more units in and you have a few hours invested. Now just download and up load... TADA love it.