Software?

[Thayne]

Except for saying I am speechless, I am speechless
:roll:

 

[Glockorola]

Regarding 9/11 and encryption, the point is:

In the same post-9/11 vein that being in Iraq is a valid response to 9/11, so too the Gov't will cloak encryption as a way to enhance our security at home.

You are arguing the politics of the issue. I'm pointing out the post-9/11 realities, regardless if you are a GirlyBoy Anti-Gun Democrat, or otherwise.

The Public will have virtually zero sympathy or support for scanner enthusiasts *****ing about encryption after my boys Ashcroft and Ridge explain that our Federal Agencies and local Public Safety folks need top notch security in this new ultra dangerous world of terrorism. (I happen to agree with Ashcroft and Ridge).

Case closed. Scanners will be dead.

 

[N_Jay]

I challenge anyone to show me even one single example of folks monitoring DES-OFB or AES encrypted P25 traffic.

No one said it can be done, at least not practically....

You can buy everything you need from eBay or behind an alley from someone's trunk and then you "buy out" a radio technician or someone on the inside that can get their hands on the keys used....

Well you can buy everything EXCEPT enough time.

Decryption is computing power and time. As long as the time to find the key is significantly longer than the time the key is in use the system is secure.

As for getting the key from a tech, sure, but today that tech probabaly has a security clearance. You had better pay him enough to retire on after his free "vacation" at the taxpayer expense.

 

[Glockorola]

Most of todays P25 Public Safety Systems using encryption do not allow any single person to know the entire key sequence. The key is entered into the keyloader (e.g., KVL 3000 Plus) by several people, each technician having only a piece of the key. Only one or two folks typically have knowledge of the entire key, and they are at the "top," and the most trusted, etc. Plus, if it got out that the system was compromised, these few folks would be hauled in on the carpet immediately. The keyloder does not display the key, as the radios also do not. There is no way that a "bought-off" Tec can help in your back alley scenario. Also, most agencies routinely give quarterly or bi annual lie detector exams to the Tecs involved in the most sensitive areas, as a further way to ferret out any internal bad guys.

 

[kikito]

You are arguing the politics of the issue.

YOU are the one with the politics, trying to justify the use of encryption because of 9/11, after the fact.

I'm being more practical by thinking it's no good for avoiding such incidents and that's closer to reality....

I'm pointing out the post-9/11 realities, regardless if you are a GirlyBoy Anti-Gun Democrat, or otherwise.

I'm far from being the above, are you?

Case closed. Scanners will be dead.

Like I said previously, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[N_Jay]

LOL

You guys crack me up.

Anyone want to go back to the first post to see what this thread was about?


And a question for the "Scanning is (or will be) dead" crowd;

How soon in your estimation?

And for the "It will never happen" crowd;

How long till enough is encrypted to take the Fun/Excitment/Apeal out of the hobby?

 

[Glockorola]

You are the political one. I am saying that encryption is here, and the Public will not come to your aid. Encryption can't be stopped now, no matter how much the GirlyBoy Democrats whine when the Public Safety folks implement AES.

BTW, the Glock M21 is far superior to the M1911. I think that was the original point of this thread.

As to timing, its Classified, and if I told you, then I'd have to...

 

[WayneH]

Geez STFU already. :roll: Do we have to bring up this encryption cracking thread again? Glockorola, you've showed some level of intelligence, now you're looking like some political troll. Every trunked system across the US is NOT all of a sudden going to encrypt all normal dispatch transmissions. Yes, maybe more sensitive transmissions will be encrypted but you yourself know the costs of equipping a radio system for OTAR, KMFs, etc and it's not cheap. Regardless of whatever new grant or however more money becomes available many systems could use it more effectively and enhance coverage and capacity in an attempt to improve subscriber safety. This ain't no 7/11 they're running. Safety will always be more important than security.....unless you're the Military.

You guys continue to make this whole '*ES can't be cracked....yes it can...no it can't' and I'll make sure this thread gets locked.

To answer the original question...there's nothing from keeping you from running baseband audio into a scanner and decoding it permitted you write the software to do it. Writing it is the hard part, the very hard part. It takes a lot of effort and time to research and crack whichever digital format. Anyone who codes for a living isn't going to do this with no real monetary gain in the end. With APCO-25 digital voice it isn't too hard; I've seen it done with BASIC code. It was a little rough but it took a WAV file and spit out voice. Considering the other formats are not standards and are seriously proprietary with not all facts published in the patents you're in for a rude awakening if you think it's that simple.

FYI, with OTAR it is possible to grab the encryption key off the air since a radio has to get it some way. It takes pricey test gear but it is possible.

-Wayne

 

[FPO703]

Geez STFU already. :roll:

You guys continue to make this whole '*ES can't be cracked....yes it can...no it can't' and I'll make sure this thread gets locked.

-Wayne

I've sent an alert to Lindsay already. I'll let him handle this one. I already got my hands smacked for locking and deleting messages.

 

[AZScanner]

Re: LOL

You guys crack me up.
And for the "It will never happen" crowd;

How long till enough is encrypted to take the Fun/Excitment/Apeal out of the hobby?

This one is easy to answer. It already has started to get frustrating at times. I live in the city of Mesa who, unlike Phoenix, has no intention of lifting the encryption they have in place on all PD comm's except for routine patrol. Anytime anything good happens, they take it to channel 5 or 8, and when they fully convert and lose the VHF patch, so much for hearing those channels! :evil: Not to mention the interference problems and poor signal quality coming out of this $70 million monster. Sometimes (N_Jay, you'll appreciate this one) the interference is so bad that my PRO-96 makes like a chihuahua with bad gas (and I have a dog that's half chihuahua/dachsund so I know what that sounds like :wink: ). I kid you not - the damn thing literally makes fart sounds when the signal turns to crap. It really is enough to piss you off, especially when all hell is breaking loose and the address to the call sounds like this "123 East f-f-f-f-f-f-t bleep bloop bleep bleep f-f-f-f-f-t." ARGH! You just wanna chuck the freaking thing out the window but then logic kicks in and you realize it's a $500 radio, and it's really not the radio's fault - it's coping with this lousy system the best it can.

Still, there are ways to find out what's going on, contrary to what our new friend here is implying. The local news media is often a great source for stuff happening and although PD comm's may employ varying degrees of encryption, FD comm's will generally stay in the clear, so the FD will be a good source for finding out about shootings, fires, accidents and the like. Scanning will still be very much alive for a long time, I think.

-AZ

 

[Glockorola]

Encryption is here to stay, and it can not/will not be broken. The only argument at this point is whether there is one year, two years, etc. left for scanners to realistically exist in the marketplace. Either way, they are soon to be dead.

Lets lock this thread up now. Nuff said on this topic (albeit, it sure was interesting!).

 

[AZScanner]

BTW, the Glock M21 is far superior to the M1911. I think that was the original point of this thread.

As to timing, its Classified, and if I told you, then I'd have to...

Oh go ahead and tell me. I've got a bunch of outstanding debts, a hectic job, two kids and a nagging wife. It'd be a relief. :lol:

-AZ

 

[N_Jay]

Well lets see.

My Predictions.

Encryption is here to stay and will only become more popular. :wink:

The Scanner Hobby has a good 4 to 10 years before encryption or other non-receivable systems but any serious dent in it. :wink:

No commercially available encryption will be broken by hobbiests while it is in current production. (Probabaly not even within 5 years after it goes out of production) :wink: :wink:


And to AZScanner, ever think it is your crappy $500 radio and not the system? :twisted:

 

[Pro-95]

Two-bits: Glock = tactical tupperware

Encryption although the latest craze, will hopefully end when (not if) the next incident takes place and everyone realizes all the little empires still do not work together. The goal from 9/11-Homeland Security is to get everyone able to communicate together as one of many facets of the agency. The deaths of many police officers and firemen is inexcusable and due to lack of common communications media. All this PV this and AES that etc etc etc will do nothing to twart future attacks only add clouds to the issue and hopefully will not be the cause of future deaths of those who serve. Encryption does nothing for Homeland Security in a general public safety application and is not justifiable as a Homeland Security issue.

Are there agencies where encryption is needed, absolutley. Does every agency need encryption, no. Has going encrypted on general public services saved lives, none that anyone knows of. Has going encryption made us safer, you live in a dream world if you think so.

The goal of any agency in a post 9/11 world should be that common frequency and radio systems must be in place to avoid another disaster that was compunded by lack of communications on 9/11. Encryption only adds to the problem and is not a solution. I only hope and pray that when the next event takes place it isn't hundereds of police officers and firefighters that pay for the empires and the school boys with there new toys.

 

[Glockorola]

Is encryption something that scanner hobbyists fear? Yes. Is encryption here, and inevitable? Yes. Will encryption kill off scanners? Yes. Is this "answer your own question format" way past its hey day, and sort of irritating? Yes! Was this thread locked? No. Was it supposed to be locked, at my request? Yes!

P.S. Are Glocks the best handguns in the world, bar none? Hell, YES!

 

[loumaag]

BTW, the Glock M21 is far superior to the M1911. I think that was the original point of this thread.

:?:
What the hell? Talk about straying off a topic. :shock:

 

[Pro-95]

1) Supposing total encryption was in all radio communications on 9/10. What events of 9/11 would have changed?

2) Supposing total encryption started tomorrow. Which system would you force all entities to be on so that all agencies can communicate together as mandated by the Homeland Security act?

3) Supposing the Federal Government mandated a radio system and encryption format other than what you think it should be what would your reaction be?

4) Which government funds should be used to supply radio and radio listening devices to non-paid, non-profit and volunteer organizations so they can assist during disastrous events? Examples would be volunteer firefighters, The American Red Cross and Ham Operators that were instrumental in providing communications and disaster relief during the first 50 days following 9/11.

5) During a disaster the magnitude of 9/11 how would you propose the logistics of supplying several thousand dollar radios to the thousands of workers attempting to find survivors and aid in the first responder process?

6) In small towns and communities, how is a new radio system to be designed, implemented and maintained when there is no local funds or experianced and trained personnel to operate them?

These are not questions for anyone in particular they are just questions I would ask anyone who thinks that new technology and encryption will save the world by making radio communications exclusive. I for one say that no matter what is decided, encrypted or not, it should be a national standard and that any and all agencies should be able to communicate with each other, because nothing said, or unable to be decrypted, that is said, will stop the next one. What will save lives will be the ability to communicate. Failure to provide this basic functionality should be treated no different than an attack on Homeland Security and unnecessarily jeopardizing the lives of those that are put in harms way to save and protect us. Commonality and interoperability should be paramount in any radio system communications plan as it is the lives of the public servant and the community that the radio system is to protect, not the radio system itself.

 

[kikito]

Is encryption something that scanner hobbyists fear? Yes. Is encryption here, and inevitable? Yes. Will encryption kill off scanners? Yes.

You seem to be so bent on announcing the doom of scanners from the beggining. Is that you're only concern? Seems to be, since you've been criticizing and *****ing about hobbyist more than you do about terrorist and people that can and have harmed our country.

Was this thread locked? No. Was it supposed to be locked, at my request? Yes!

Now you want it locked, when you were the one that got us to this off-topic point in the first place and that way you'll have the last word....

It looks like you've been borderline trolling from the get-go, only commenting on controversial subjects and not-so-subtle personal attacks on people....

P.S. Are Glocks the best handguns in the world, bar none? Hell, YES!

Amazingly we agree on something! :roll:

 

[AZScanner]

Well lets see.
And to AZScanner, ever think it is your crappy $500 radio and not the system? :twisted:

Yeah, it's my radio - that's gotta be it.:roll: It's so crappy that it emits an all-encompassing green glowing aura of crappiness that extends 500 miles in all directions to the Uniden scanners and the actual system radios too, causing them to also not work. I'm sorry Phoenix and Mesa for ruining your mega million dollar radio system with my crappy $500 radio....

-AZ

 

[N_Jay]

Well lets see.
And to AZScanner, ever think it is your crappy $500 radio and not the system? :twisted:

Yeah, it's my radio - that's gotta be it.:roll: It's so crappy that it emits an all-encompassing green glowing aura of crappiness that extends 500 miles in all directions to the Uniden scanners and the actual system radios too, causing them to also not work. I'm sorry Phoenix and Mesa for ruining your mega million dollar radio system with my crappy $500 radio....

-AZ

Well, I did not here you say, that you heard SYSTEM USERS complaining, jut that YOU could not hear.

As many have said before; there is a BIG difference between the performance of a radio designed for the system, and a scanner.