The end of scanner development and mfg.

[trentbob]

Digital/trunking isn’t the same as encryption. Encryption is explicitly designed for and exclusively for the purpose of keeping you out in the cold. That’s its only function. It is nearly impossible to defeat and and illegal go do so even if you could.

Yes of course you speak the obvious and we all already know that it is an entirely different situation than the introduction of digital radio for the reasons you stated... we are out in the cold. But...

That period of time from when my County went digital in 2001 to the introduction of the first digital scanners in 2003 was mighty, mighty cold LOL. Thank goodness for Uniden and GRE research and development at that time.

At that time I didn't have the money for a Motorola like I did in 2015 to handle my counties simulcast distortion when they left that terrific digital type II smartzone system and started using the crappy P2 simulcast system they have now.

 

[TailGator911]

I was under the impression that trunking - and the ulterior motive therein - was engineered to make it more difficult to monitor an agency's communications system by novice monitors, a step ahead of scanner manufacturer's at the time. At the same time it was thought to facilitate and expedite communications within a system in a more expedient and timely manner. Although digital trunking and encryption are two different formats, did they not start out with the same motives in mind? I might be wrong, but I might be right

 

[SteveSimpkin]

I was under the impression that trunking - and the ulterior motive therein - was engineered to make it more difficult to monitor an agency's communications system by novice monitors, a step ahead of scanner manufacturer's at the time. At the same time it was thought to facilitate and expedite communications within a system in a more expedient and timely manner. Although digital trunking and encryption are two different formats, did they not start out with the same motives in mind? I might be wrong, but I might be right

While making it harder to monitor conversations on a scanner was probably a minor perk, the big benefit was spectral efficiency.
"The primary purpose of this type of system is efficiency; many people can carry many conversations over only a few distinct frequencies "

Trunked radio system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[doctordialtone]

Trunking, like in Telephone Systems, is to make a few "Trunks" available to many users.

For example, in a hospital if you had to have an outside line available to every user, you'd need hundreds of "Trunks"

Users dial "9" to access one in a group of lines.

Trunked Radio has the same goal - to make more talk paths available to a large POOL of users.

 

[TailGator911]

..an addendum to that might read 'while making following conversations on typical frequencies more difficult'...just sayin...as it certainly had an affect on how scanners were engineered.

 

[trentbob]

..an addendum to that might read 'while making following conversations on typical frequencies more difficult'...just sayin...as it certainly had an affect on how scanners were engineered.

I get exactly what you are saying JD. I do remember when trunking started and it was for efficiency however, what I think you're trying to say and we are tending to walk on eggshells here LOL... as research and development improved and scanners were made to keep up with the changes like trunking and digital radio those who were monitoring the airwaves where sophisticated listeners who bought expensive radios that were difficult and Technical to program and had to make an effort to be able to hear Public Service radio.

It wasn't like today when anybody can instantly hear the police without any effort at all even if they don't know the first thing about it

I think you get my point that goes right along with your thinking.

 

[TailGator911]

Yeah, while the innovation and technology of trunking communications was implemented to advance radio systems efficiency, there is no doubt that it was also looked upon as a deterrent to those wishing to monitor those communications. At the time, that technology left scanner manufacturer's in the dust, albeit for only a short time. Since then it has been a technological race to keep up with the engineering that has been forthcoming over the years, with the final blow being encryption. As I understand it, a licensed algorithm that cannot be compromised.

 

[AK9R]

But, that "deterrent" went out the window in the late 1990's when Uniden and GRE/RadioShack came out with trunk-tracking scanners. I don't doubt that some less-than-scrupulous radio system sales people made claims back in the day that their systems were harder to track due to trunking, but we are far down the road from the inception of trunked radio systems and the scanner manufacturers have it pretty well figured out by now.

In other words, it's a non-issue. There's no point in dredging up scanning problems that the manufacturers have already solved.

 

[trentbob]

Yeah, while the innovation and technology of trunking communications was implemented to advance radio systems efficiency, there is no doubt that it was also looked upon as a deterrent to those wishing to monitor those communications. At the time, that technology left scanner manufacturer's in the dust, albeit for only a short time. Since then it has been a technological race to keep up with the engineering that has been forthcoming over the years, with the final blow being encryption. As I understand it, a licensed algorithm that cannot be compromised.

Interesting take, the two scanner companies GRE and Uniden certainly did do a good job of keeping right up with the research and development so that we could hear the latest systems out there.

There was a lag with trunking and digital. I remember the New Jersey State Police went to a analog 800 megahertz trunked system and we would just monitor all the frequencies in the system and had no idea what we were listening to but we could hear the calls... it was not long before trunked scanners came out and the digital scanners were a tremendous breakthrough for the two companies.

But as has been said here over and over no research and development is going to overcome this next phase and the writing is on the wall.

The big question is how long will it take... I think we still have time unless of course, the sky has already fallen on your head

 

[trentbob]

But, that "deterrent" went out the window in the late 1990's when Uniden and GRE/RadioShack came out with trunk-tracking scanners. I don't doubt that some less-than-scrupulous radio system sales people made claims back in the day that their systems were harder to track due to trunking, but we are far down the road from the inception of trunked radio systems and the scanner manufacturers have it pretty well figured out by now.

In other words, it's a non-issue. There's no point in dredging up scanning problems that the manufacturers have already solved.

Try to look at it if you would as more of a nostalgic conversation in regards to the history of research and development and how the scanner business was kept alive by the great R&D done by the engineers like Paul who I understand was instrumental in developing object-oriented scanning.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the conversation, I hope some of the older guys who know all this history are enjoying it too.

 

[AK9R]

I'm trying to remember the name of the guy who figured out trunk tracking. Greg something, I think. He showed up in CompuServe forums and claimed he had cracked Motorola's tracking system. Was around for awhile and kept folks apprised of his progress. Then, he disappeared. A year or so later, Uniden came out with their first trunk tracking scanner.

However, before that time, folks were using 800 MHz scanners and communications receivers to listen to trunked public safety and business systems. It was cumbersome because you had to try to keep up with the trunking on your own.

 

[trentbob]

I'm trying to remember the name of the guy who figured out trunk tracking. Greg something, I think. He showed up in CompuServe forums and claimed he had cracked Motorola's tracking system. Was around for awhile and kept folks apprised of his progress. Then, he disappeared. A year or so later, Uniden came out with their first trunk tracking scanner.

However, before that time, folks were using 800 MHz scanners and communications receivers to listen to trunked public safety and business systems. It was cumbersome because you had to try to keep up with the trunking on your own.

Yep it was awful, that New Jersey State Police hybrid 800 megahertz analog trunk system I was talking about had so many talk groups that were Statewide and you literally put every frequency in... We were just kidding ourselves because we never had a complete conversation unless maybe it was 4 a.m.

Just to make the point that nobody thought they were going to crack the trunking issue.

Nobody especially thought they would ever crack the digital radio systems.

Like I say, it's been said by you and many others... This Time It's Different.

We just wait and see who's next to go.

 

[werinshades]

In other words, it's a non-issue. There's no point in dredging up scanning problems that the manufacturers have already solved.

Are you "hinting" that someone has figured out how to listen to encryption? . As far as I know, scanner manufacturers won't be able to "keep up" with encryption since they put laws on the books to prevent that.

 

[ten13]

As far as I know, scanner manufacturers won't be able to "keep up" with encryption since they put laws on the books to prevent that.

Correct.

And the comparison of early Trunking (or even the decades-ago changes from low band to...whatever) and today's and future encryption is meaningless.

There were no laws preventing the monitoring of Trunking.

Also keep in mind that, in New York State, a high court recently ruled that mere possession of a "scanner" in a vehicle is a violation of the Vehicle and Traffic Law, a far more stringent interpretation of the law governing radios from years past.

No matter what anyone thinks to the contrary about the future of scanners, there appears to be much to many hurdles to overcome to make future scanner development and production a profit-making endeavor.

 

[TailGator911]

I wasn't trying to dredge up old problems that manufacturer's have already solved, just my take on how scanning technology has evolved to what we know now. I have been around long enough to have seen all the phases and the solutions and the displaced futility as technology has made its advances, and it's always the same old song and dance that the scanning hobby is history. And, yet, technology always keeps the pace.

If man made it, it can be broken. If there's a will, there's a way. Just sayin...

 

[sfb88]

In the long term, considering E, it appears that the future of the scanning market will depend on whether things like air, milair, hams, railroad, business, etc. form a market large enough to sustain it. Pardon my ignorance of this field, but I also wonder if 'scanning' software is or can be made available to support SDR dongles.

 

[trentbob]

I wasn't trying to dredge up old problems that manufacturer's have already solved, just my take on how scanning technology has evolved to what we know now. I have been around long enough to have seen all the phases and the solutions and the displaced futility as technology has made its advances, and it's always the same old song and dance that the scanning hobby is history. And, yet, technology always keeps the pace.

If man made it, it can be broken. If there's a will, there's a way. Just sayin...

Of course you are not dredging up anyting but just having a nice conversation about Nostalgia of research and development that has helped the scanner business stay alive by keeping up with every new change.

You saw my post, I think that's understood by all. I'm rather enjoying the conversation JD, with people who have the experience to remember all of those significant milestones that were were conquered.

Of course this is different but... one of my oldest and favorite sayings is... Where there's a will there's a way. Hahaha.

So letting my imagination run wild I can think of a way people will get around the problem. It would be illegal and this is not the place to talk about it

If you let your imagination run wild, there will be ways. It certainly is not going to happen through research and development by a consumer scanner company, that's for sure.

So we wait and see what happens.

Again I've enjoyed this conversation tonight, I'm finding it harder and harder to find threads here on RR that interest me after all of these years. I especially like talking with people who have the same experience and knowledge that I do about the past, the long, long past, LOL. I love nostalgia.

 

[Firekite]

As far as I know, scanner manufacturers won't be able to "keep up" with encryption since they put laws on the books to prevent that.

I don’t think y’all understand what encryption is. It has nothing to do with radio, inherently. Laws regarding cracking encryption, if they exist, are irrelevant. Scanner manufacturers won’t be able to “keep up with” encrypted channels, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with any pointless laws.

Encryption is not a new digital mode or some sort of new way of making more efficient use of a narrow set of frequencies. Encryption means leveraging cryptographic techniques and technologies to rearrange digital data into otherwise meaningless gibberish to the extent that you can’t easily put that data back again into its original form without possession of the correct decryption key. It’s vey math and computer science intensive, but essentially people come up with ciphers and algorithms to allow a computing system (including your phone, or a digital radio, etc) to rapidly encrypt and decrypt data without too much difficulty if they have the keys while ensuring that no one can come with a way to shortcut their way to a solution. Barring someone finding such a shortcut, cracking encryption requires a massive amount of computing power and time. If someone encrypts a file, and they hand you that file to try to crack, with enough time and computing power you may be able to do it, but it would take a lot of both.

The point is, encryption is not “the next phase” of radio. It is not something for scanner manufacturers (or SDR dongles and computer software) to “handle” or “catch up with.” Any current or future laws against listening to encrypted traffic are pointless and irrelevant to the conversation; they have nothing to do with why encryption is a problem for monitoring radio traffic, even for people who have no concern for laws. Encryption means no monitoring—not because you're disallowed or because scanner manufacturers haven’t caught up with it, but because you cannot. By definition, it’s not possible.

 

[AA6IO]

As much as the big E factor, I think generational changes are also affecting scanning enthusiasm and amateur radio. I realize that there are many younger folks on RRDB, but compared to the population in general, folks older than 60 (I am age 70) make up a very high percentage of those who are scanner enthusiasts, most often from way back. Nowadays, my daughter, son-in-law, grandkids, and their friends find out about local crime activity, if so interested, from local neighborhood watch forums on Facebook much more quickly than they would by listening to local law enforcement. Many of us who started scanning or our interest in ham radio (mine started in my early teens in early 1960s) did so way before computers, IPhones, Android, the Internet, Facebook, and so on.
I don't see a bright future for scanning, nor frankly for amateur radio. Will it all go away? Of course not! But interest in owning your own scanner certainly will decrease to the point where the costs of new R&D and marketing just won't be justified by the return on the investment. UPMan has been mentioned in this thread. He has been a prime mover in scanner development over the past several years. I doubt that Uniden or any other company will continue to devote this kind of attention to scanner development in the not-so-far future.
Sure, marine, civil and military air, railroads, and some other areas will provide interest for some, but scanners from 10-20 years ago are fine for that. Hope I'm wrong on the future of scanning, but I really don't think so.

 

[slicerwizard]

I was under the impression that trunking - and the ulterior motive therein - was engineered to make it more difficult to monitor an agency's communications system by novice monitors

That's ridiculous.

Since then it has been a technological race to keep up with the engineering that has been forthcoming over the years, with the final blow being encryption. As I understand it, a licensed algorithm that cannot be compromised.

You think that AES is some sort of licensed algorithm? You're just making up nonsense.

If man made it, it can be broken. If there's a will, there's a way. Just sayin...

More willful ignorance on your part.

Of course this is different but... one of my oldest and favorite sayings is... Where there's a will there's a way. Hahaha.

So letting my imagination run wild I can think of a way people will get around the problem. It would be illegal and this is not the place to talk about it

Au contraire. We would all love to hear your method for sidestepping AES256. Don't be so shy.

Some of you guys are quite the BS artists.