Trunked on Ham?

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bfperez

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I do think that it's a worthwhile concept for hams to learn how to build out a trunking system. Do a low power one for an event or some kind of team/club thing and see how it works.

Demand that each user open and close with their call sign, rotate control channels ever 9 or so minutes and have it follow with a morse call sign, etc. and it might be possible to meet the ID requirements.
 

Hit_Factor

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Not sure how opening a conversation with my callsign would help the repeaters ID.

At least around here, we start most calls that way, then switch to names. My point being that we usually start with call signs and end with call signs so it shouldn't be a big deal.

73, K8HIT
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kayn1n32008

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rotate control channels ever 9 or so minutes and have it follow with a morse call sign, etc. and it might be possible to meet the ID requirements.

Using XPT and/or LCP eliminates the control channel issue. Neither protocol uses a control channel.


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nd5y

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At least around here, we start most calls that way, then switch to names. My point being that we usually start with call signs and end with call signs so it shouldn't be a big deal.
A trunked system user could be transmitting on a different frequency each time you key up.
Depending on the type of system your radio could make unidentified transmissions by itself when roaming.
Under the current FCC rules you would have to end every transmission with your callsign if it happens on a different frequency.
 

kayn1n32008

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Immature and asinine bs for anyone to say amateur radio is not an emergency service. Obviously you've never been to a ravaged and demolished neighborhood where all coms were down and ARES members and volunteers coordinated rescues and evacuations and mutual aid. I have volunteered for Hurricane Andrew in '92, and Katrina in 2005. Where do you get off saying such a thing.... There is really no need for trunking on amateur radio repeaters, other than for personal experimentation and recreational use. See how your trunking repeater works in a real world emergency situation where simplicity is needed for coordinating communications. Not needed when you need clear repeaters for hams with basic gear to expedite things such as welfare checks, water truck deliveries and medical personnel. Stop thinking with your joysticks.

I'm sure trunking repeaters might find a place in your communications world, right next to your X-box and Play Stations.

I have been doing this hobby for almost 26 years now. I am not the x-box/PlayStation generation.

I have also been involved in ARES both in the field and in an EOC. I do know the value the organization can bring in a disaster.

Digital technologies are well suited to this task as well.

With the upcoming 5GHz/10GHz Geostationary ham satellite under development, DMR NXDN, DStar and Fusion could be deployed and linked out of the disaster zone, while also supporting Email, Winlink, IP telephony and video conferencing.

For portable repeaters, a small trailer, with a 50’ crank up tower, large battery bank, some solar charging, a diesel generator w/ 40 gallons of gas/diesel could be deployed by a 2 man team just about anywhere, and even, if built right, be slung by a helicopter tinto any location.

IMHO DMR utilizing LCP or even XPT trunking protocols would be ideal for these kinds of situations. As would NXDN Type D(but lose the 2 slot efficiency)

You would be able to run multiple, isolated nets, and not be limited to having talk groups strapped to timeslots.

-Tactical net
-Logistics net
-Admin net
-GPS asset tracking
-Low speed data/messaging.

As some examples.

2 LCP repeaters could handle hundreds of radios in a distaste zone, and using the 5&dime geostationary satellite could link multiple sites together, Sky is the limit.

All it takes is to stop the old skool ‘5KHz analogue FM is the best’

That insults every ham who has ever volunteered in an emergency situation.

To a degree.

More and more public safety comm systems are being built and hardened to with stand natural disasters. My provincial system, every single site has a back up generator, and redundant network paths. Some sites use VSat as their secondary link to the network. The role of hamradio in disasters is changing, and the reliance is also changing. Even 30 years ago satellite phones were rare. Now they can be carried in a pocket.

An ARES repeater is used for emergency coms when needed, other times it is a common repeater for casual conversation for real hams with a respect for tradition.

Oh please. Because I don’t subscribe to your view of what ‘real’ ham radio is I don’t respect the ‘tradition?’ What ever guy.

It's always been that way and it always will be. The X-Box generation will never change that. It's fine to hypothetically discuss progress and new ideas, but there is no need to insult and disrespect a volunteer service that has been a tradition in amateur radio for decades, and certainly before you ever picked up a walkie-talkie.

It only ‘never changes’ because people like you refuse to apply new technologies, and are stuck in the ‘5KHz analogue is best’ past.

I helped bring DMR kicking and screaming into Alberta. The club I used to belong to has 302600, the first DMR repeater in Alberta. I also had a DMR radio, with others, and was using it simplex, before we had a repeater to use.

Live stuck in the past, I am looking to the future.


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Mars_P25

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now I want to ask a question about trunking or more to the point TDMA
what ever happend to that outfit that was going to market a radio/technology (which I assume was DMR)
that would eventually give us 4 time slots?
I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with this. Perhaps you may be thinking of TETRA? It's 4 timeslots spread out over a 25 kHz channel. This is the same efficiency of DMR, with less repeaters (in a rack) to achieve the same result, but TETRA cells are much smaller and more money must be spent on infrastructure than DMR. But if there's another technology you're referring to, perhaps you can share more. I'm interested.

Not sure how opening a conversation with my callsign would help the repeaters ID.

At least around here, we start most calls that way, then switch to names. My point being that we usually start with call signs and end with call signs so it shouldn't be a big deal.
So long as the repeaters are IDing at the interval defined by your local laws, I don't see the issue. It's no different than someone rebroadcasting you elsewhere via another means. The whole purpose of IDing is so interference and purpose can be verified/investigated if necessary. If the repeater (one of many) on a TRS was causing interference, those investigating the interference would have a good start via the CWID. As for repeater inputs, it would get sorted soon enough. Sites that are single-frequency (dual timeslot) are not an issue, obviously. Each country has different legal requirements.

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com501

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All it takes is to stop the old skool ‘5KHz analogue FM is the best’

I always preferred 25kc radios until they 'narrow-banded' to 5kc.

It's not 'my' view of ham radio, it is what ham radio is and always has been.

I always liked the fiddling with spark gap, it was so fun to listen to. Is that what you like? Pre-WWI comms? Better dust off your tube tester and some crystals for your crystal set.

This is the 21st century where anyone can have a Dick Tracy watch for a few hundred bucks. There are so many modes of communication, why not embrace new, more efficient tech?
 

byndhlptom

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I'm sorry, I think digital on ham for the most part is an answer in search of a problem.

There is a very practical reason the national incident frequencies are FM, CSQ. Just about every commercial radio made can do FM. It's the same for ham. If someone from outside your area comes to help, they have to have their Digital radio programmed before he can use it, assuming his radio supports your local Digital mode. If there was one digital standard (like what happened when VHF/UHF switched from AM to FM), I could almost accept a digital transition. I have no problem with experimenting with any of the Digital modes, go for it. But to assume that switching to digital will cure some problem is a little too far. Using FM, I can talk to a both someone with a brand new wizbang special and a someone with a 20 year old basic unit.

Yes, some digital modes allow you to increase talk paths, allow you to use the internet to link, send data, etc. but the end user equipment generally is more expense than FM gear, the infrastructure is more expensive, and you generally loose the ability for changing/programming by hand.

By all means experiment, have fun, just don't push your preference on those of us who are very happy with our "antiquated", but still very functional gear/systems.

$.02
 

kayn1n32008

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I'm sorry, I think digital on ham for the most part is an answer in search of a problem.

How so. How is applying modern technology a solution in search of a problem?

Hams once lead the world in communications technology. SSB and the Yagi antenna are examples.

There is a very practical reason the national incident frequencies are FM, CSQ.

That is changing. Time and technology marches on. All the 700Mhz interop frequencies are P25 and not FM.

Carrier squelch is a pain. Try driving through a large-ish city with out it, using a modern ham mobile, or portable with an external antenna.

I almost never use repeaters that do not transmit PL unless there is nothing else available. If my receiver gets hammered, I turn it off or turn it down and forget about it.

Just about every commercial radio made can do FM. It's the same for ham. If someone from outside your area comes to help, they have to have their Digital radio programmed before he can use it, assuming his radio supports your local Digital mode.

Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Plan plan plan.

Practice practice practice.

But to assume that switching to digital will cure some problem is a little too far.

Who said anything about ‘curing a problem?’

There are some real advantages to digital modes.

-Increased range, due to FEC.
-Superior noise cancelling both by active noise cancelling AND DSP
-Easier network security.
-DMR has features like RAS that keeps unauthorized users out. As does allowing specific ID ranges.
-Networking using IP, using cellular, public provider, private microwave, VSat are all viable methods to create wide area networks with out DAQ loss.

Using FM, I can talk to a both someone with a brand new wizbang special and a someone with a 20 year old basic unit.

Yup

Yes, some digital modes allow you to increase talk paths, allow you to use the internet to link, send data, etc. but the end user equipment generally is more expense than FM gear, the infrastructure is more expensive, and you generally loose the ability for changing/programming by hand.

To an extent. You can find used, good condition digital LMR gear for the same or less money than some high end ham gear.

To an extent the infrastructure is more expensive. Take out the garbage Fusion repeaters and most hams are using LMR repeaters, repurposed for ham use. I fact, there are not any ham manufacturers making ham specific repeaters except Icom and Yaesu, and their repeaters specifically for ham radio are junk.

By all means experiment, have fun, just don't push your preference on those of us who are very happy with our "antiquated", but still very functional gear/systems.

$.02

Then expect to be left behind. Like I told the other guy, I’m all for applying technology to advance this hobby.


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TailGator911

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By all means experiment, have fun, just don't push your preference on those of us who are very happy with our "antiquated", but still very functional gear/systems.

While I agree with you 100%, there is always room for new technology in any hobby if it is accepted and utilized by the general populace. We see new digital modes come and go - D-Star, Fusion, etc - and, for the most part, the radio community tries them out and if that particular mode doesn't impress or shake the foundation, it quickly becomes antiquated without ever being incorporated into the hobby. DMR seems to be the exception right now, but I see it being widely sold as 'private' communications when it is not. How long before businesses wake up and want a 'real' private radio system?

My personal communications system incorporates the old with the new, as I have 'antiquated' and still very functional gear sitting next to new digital communications gear and I use them both together everyday in tandem. Works for me ;)

JD
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com501

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DMR seems to be the exception right now, but I see it being widely sold as 'private' communications when it is not. How long before businesses wake up and want a 'real' private radio system?

DMR has fairly robust encryption built-in as well as easily deciphered basic encryption, which is used primarily to defeat scanner users. Enhanced encryption and AES256 encryption are available in DMR. Businesses can also opt for P25 systems with AES256 as can HAMS in some countries.

2-slot TDMA is the same codec for both 'DMR' and 'P25'. There are only very minor differences in implementation. The 4-slot EU standard will not be used in the USA and Canada until some changes in the permanent rules take place. Nothing is stopping hams in NA from adopting Tetra 4-slot other than a lack of equipment on this side of the pond.

Your comment about 'real' 'private' radio systems is specious and without merit.
 

TailGator911

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Just going by the things I hear about some police departments and businesses buying DMR thinking their particular system cannot be monitored, and it sure can. I'm sure there are more bells and whistles to DMR system codes than I will ever be interested in, but the comment definitely has merit depending on different sources. Look it up right here on RR, under specious comments maybe? lol Lordy.
 

com501

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I am sorry if your one source is RR, it's hardly the PDR of radiodom. I turn up one DMR system a week and one P25 system a month, all with encryption that cannot be monitored. If you want to use digital formats 'in the clear' then you are only getting half the benefit.
 

TailGator911

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Yeah my one source is radioreference, gotta admit I don't know a lot about DMR, just how to monitor it. Or hotspots. Or Fusion. Us humans, we tend to all learn something new everyday, don't we?. Life is good!
 

Mars_P25

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OK, so some of the OFs have decided (for the rest of us) "trunking is bad" and analog conventional operation is the only thing we should be using for the rest of time. OK, if that's how it must be (until they die off) can we at least add PL encode/decode to repeaters? Better yet, DPL? And can we please ban CCRs which don't support selectable 120-degree (Motorola) or 180-degree (TIA) reverse burst, or 134.3 Hz (DCS reverse burst)? It's "hammy" to hear any radio (not just a CCR) not following those standards, making a repeater squelch tail go "chhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhrp"

A little quality goes a long way. The same applies to the DMR CCRs which don't have TX audio AGC or support any proprietary Motorola features. Support proprietary Motorola features? Yes. Since CCRs are made by companies which don't respect copyright, I'm surprised they haven't bothered cloning everything the Motorola units can do. If CCR manufacturers are going to make CCR clone garbage, they can at least get the cloning right.

I know from reading this and other forums, there are quite a few progressive thinkers out there, lurking/reading. Some are already experimenting with other trunking formats. Keep up the great work, guys. This is how we learn and apply that knowledge to making the hobby better. The OFs who are "off frequency" will likely keep drifting until the point where they are no longer causing QRM where we're metaphorically operating :)
 

Mars_P25

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Further reading: ham radio "trunking"

It appears this guy (K2JLB) was 11 years into the future at the time he wrote those posts. Very cool looking back at progressive thinking from 2008, even if some of the concepts are little misunderstood. And to no surprise, there were OFs trying to tell him CSQ junk is just fine.. Hahaha. oh man. Great entertainment.
 

kb6hlm

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Remember when we all had to go to radio shack to buy a new crystal for are scanner ? and then the "crystal less" scanner came out ? Now can you imagine what would the hobby be like if we all agreed with the guy that said "why would anyone need more then 16 channels" or a transistor radio when crystals sound so much better ? or how about this funny one "640k is Enough for anyone" - Bill Gates LMAO !! anyway let me say something about the OFs here, I'm one of them and I know guys its tough believe me ! I have spent many hours trying to figure out this dam BCD536hp and don't get me started on those crazy SDR gadgets however i did figure it out and WOW those things are pretty cool and a lot of fun a whole new world opened up to me i didn't even know existed not so long ago lets face it times have changed and the days of just moving the dial around is over!! you must have basic understanding of Digital Radio or you will be left in the dark ! I know its challenging but that makes it even more fun when it works Enjoy new technology don't just shoot it down just because you don't understand are your frightened of it its going to be ok you figured out that cellphone right? let the young people have it Go ahead guys play with Ham Radio trunking sounds like fun to me if it works it works if not on to something else :) Thank you

OF
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kb6hlm

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Sorry guys just had to get one more thing in here

Some of you may remember this quote

"SSB what is that? Sounds just awful and has no place on Ham Radio when AM works just fine besides that there is no one to talk to anyway and its way too expense who is going to run out and spend that kind of money on a worthless technology ? "

Think I made my point here LMAO
73s gentlemen
 
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