Trunked on Ham?

Status
Not open for further replies.

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
7,393
Reaction score
2,336
Location
Sector 001
Yeah, it"s ridiculous. But if he has to get it out of his system, then okay

It seems ridiculous when one does not have a decent grasp on available trunking technologies.

LTR, XPT and LCP do not have control channels. You get 1 and 2 talk paths respectively, with out locking talk groups to time slots(on DMR) like conventional IP linking does.

DMR-MARC could be a fantastic system using LCP(site count and RID limits not with standing)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

TailGator911

Silent Key/KF4ANC
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
2,687
Reaction score
1,696
Location
Fairborn, OH
I would vote nay. As many others have pondered - why?

Total waste of time and money and resources, not to mention the instant outdating of countless kitchen counter scanners tuned specifically to their local SkyWarn repeaters. I would have to buy my mother a new scanner so she could hear the SkyWarn Nets during severe weather incidents. There is no need to trunk ham repeaters. If you want exclusive QSOs, go DMR with your own RadioID.

JD
kf4anc
 

ke5lvt

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
85
Reaction score
3
Location
plaquemine la
so much negativity about this. a trunking systems work very well even better in tdma mode, all user radio can id them selves on every transmission the system can id the channels in the back ground so you dont have to hear it.
 

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
7,393
Reaction score
2,336
Location
Sector 001
I would vote nay. As many others have pondered - why?

Total waste of time and money and resources, not to mention the instant outdating of countless kitchen counter scanners tuned specifically to their local SkyWarn repeaters. I would have to buy my mother a new scanner so she could hear the SkyWarn Nets during severe weather incidents. There is no need to trunk ham repeaters. If you want exclusive QSOs, go DMR with your own RadioID.

JD
kf4anc

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Just another ham stuck in the past.

Well here in Canada there actually is a LCP wide area system, and the owners really don’t give rats-*** what others think about their network, how they operate it, or that cheap junk is not welcome on it.

Those that put money up for the infrastructure dictate what it does, won’t be pushed around, and will not cater to idiots.

People are free to join it, provided they have a compatible radio.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

INDY72

Monitoring since 1982, using radios since 1991.
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 18, 2002
Messages
14,991
Reaction score
1,806
Location
Indianapolis, IN
And since Brandmiester, MARC and other DMR set ups are pretty much all IP Site Connected systems, they act pretty much as a trunked network does. And that is a worldwide system. Not to mention you CAN take it to next level if you do T3.. Cap Max. Then you link LCP sites and IP Site Connected... If you really want to go expanded to the brim. But as in most Ham networks the repeater police snobs will kill you every chance they get cause they do not want real experimentation or want you in their little clubs. A huge part of the reason for Ham is the continuation of knowledge and learning and experimentation. Something a LOT of folks seem to suddenly forget once they get that third tier of licensing, or have been Hams for a LONG time....
 
Last edited by a moderator:

INDY72

Monitoring since 1982, using radios since 1991.
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 18, 2002
Messages
14,991
Reaction score
1,806
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Explain how.
Say your call. Or have an automatic system. And on DMR your RID is popped out on every PTT. This would make it real nice if every RID could be set to your call. Lets say your RID on each DMR radio you set like so: ND5Y1 ND5Y2 etc....Then your call is being broadcast through the data every friggin time you PTT on the system.
 

nd5y

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
12,249
Reaction score
4,456
Location
Wichita Falls, TX
on DMR your RID is popped out on every PTT. This would make it real nice if every RID could be set to your call.
DMR RID is just a number It's not legal as a FCC callsign.
You don't even need a RID (in ham radio) unless you use a DMR radio on one of the networks that requires DMR IDs issued by RadioID.net.
Hams would have to modify the DMR standard to make the RID alpanumeric text. That means they would have to also modify the firmware of a lot of different radio models.
 

W5lz

Active Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
617
Reaction score
255
I don't understand why anyone would think trunking would be desirable on amateur radio. Of course, I'm one'a them "Old Farts", stuck in the past, fuddidudies(sp). Spent enough time changing your diappers that quite frankly, I'm just tired of your crap.
Is it possible to do? Sure, with the proper modification of a few characteristics. Is it benificial? Considering the amateur of the hobby, no, it isnt. (Now, if I were selling such a system, that "no" would change to a definite "YES".)
 

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
7,393
Reaction score
2,336
Location
Sector 001
And since Brandmiester, MARC and other DMR set ups are pretty much all IP Site Connected systems, they act pretty much as a trunked network does. And that is a worldwide system.

No they do not. Talk groups are strapped to time slots. If another user on a different talk group, using the same slot, wants to make a call, they MUST wait until the first user is finished. With trunking, that second user would be steered to the open slot.

Not to mention you CAN take it to next level if you do T3.. Cap Max. Then you link LCP sites and IP Site Connected...

Huh? That made zero sense.

If you really want to go expanded to the brim. But as in most Ham networks the repeater police snobs will kill you every chance they get cause they do not want real experimentation or want you in their little clubs.

That’s why people spend their own money and build their own networks. They set their own expectations for those that want to use their equipment. Play along or go away. Pretty simple.

It’s one of the reasons the LCP system I know of exists. It was built by like minded folks that don’t want to deal with people that buy junk equipment, that sounds like garbage. Folks are welcome to use it, but it requires an investment in compatible gear(and a RAS key) to do so. They have people that complain, but they also don’t contribute to the expansion and upkeep.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

N5XPM

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
221
Reaction score
94
Location
Texas
Most of the OP's goal should be achievable by going through the FCC Part 90.35 frequency coordination process and obtaining an FB8 trunking license for a specific site, then constructing a trunked system as authorized by the license. Choice of either 150 or 450 Mhz bands, adjacent to the 2 meter or 70 cm bands. Your choice of P25, DMR or NXDN / IDAS. Obtain FCC approved Part 90 equipment and allow anyone you want on the system and many of the radios should be operable on amateur bands as well.
 

Mars_P25

Paid RR Supporter
Banned
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
130
I don't understand why anyone would think trunking would be desirable on amateur radio. Of course, I'm one'a them "Old Farts", stuck in the past, fuddidudies(sp). Spent enough time changing your diappers that quite frankly, I'm just tired of your crap.
Is it possible to do? Sure, with the proper modification of a few characteristics. Is it benificial? Considering the amateur of the hobby, no, it isnt. (Now, if I were selling such a system, that "no" would change to a definite "YES".)

I run a trunking system on the amateur spectrum, within Canada. Your comments, as well as those of a few others in this thread, are indicative of a lack of understanding of how trunking works and why it’s required. Hams need to stop c0ck-blocking progressive thinking and embrace efficiency.

First, why do hams need 14 repeaters within a city, and only two of those repeaters are ever used? Because everyone has their own clubs, purpose and listening interests. Sometimes the repeaters serve a particular area of the city better, but many repeaters are centrally located.

With DMR timeslot trunking, I can take two physical repeaters, which operate on two pairs (narrowband deviation by the way) and have four talk paths, via two-slot TDMA technology. Those four timeslots are dynamically assigned on a first-come, first-serve basis.

ARES (should be renamed to Amateur Radio Community Service, as ham radio is not an emergency service and it’s whacker to call it as such), the seniors’ club, the weekly net, the rag chew guys, etc, can each have their own talkgroup (virtual channel) and have the advantage of the same excellent RF-coverage and consistent quality of service, instead of using whatever welfare analog repeater is half-working on the other side of town, complete with a 1980s talking CAT750 controller which is annoying to listen to.

Of the 14 analogue repeaters that are up in town, are they ever all used at once? NO.

Does it makes sense to tie up 14 repeater pairs, just so a bunch of old fat losers can brag to their friends they have a repeater and squat a pair which could be used by someone else, or added to the trunking system to increase capacity for ALL hams to benefit from? NO.

What about the physical rack space, cost of insurance and electricity demands 14 analog repeaters consume each year? Does it not make more sense to pay insurance for one site, take up less space and make more efficient use of the spectrum? Of course.

Another thing which is easily achieved with technology such as Motorola Capacity Plus Multi-site (propriety Tier II Networked DMR timeslot trunking) is talkgroup-based site routing. I can program the master repeater (controller) so specific sites are activated/used on a given talkgroup. This makes way more sense. Especially if two users wish to private call each other, Radio to Radio.

On BrandMeister or DMR-MARC, talkgroups are strapped to a given timeslot. This prevents users from using another talkgroup on the same timeslot, until the first conversation is complete. That’s retarded. It would make more sense to dynamically assign a timeslot as it becomes available. Why should users of “TAC 4” or “Seniors’ breakfast club” not be able to key up because some yahoo just had to bring up the North ‘Murcia talkgroup where “by golly” some guy is talking about his pissbag and 67 other stations are kerchunking the talkgroup from other repeaters to keep the “on demand” status of their linking active?

The best thing our group ever did was go trunking. The system uses RAS (infrastructure protection key) to ensure access is limited to hams with proper programming (codeplugs) are using the system.

We also benefit from the built-in functionality of Enhanced Channel Access, which means two users are not able to key up over each other when replying. (Some hams are famous for “shot gunning” and walking all over each other).

Ham radio could be so much better. Education and common sense are the key to survival and progression of our hobby.
 
D

DaveNF2G

Guest
The impetus behind any push to trunking is obvious in some of the comments in this thread - brand snobbery.
 

Mars_P25

Paid RR Supporter
Banned
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
130
The impetus behind any push to trunking is obvious in some of the comments in this thread - brand snobbery.
Not really. If you think those Chinese radios are quality, and should be allowed to transmit while putting out spurious emissions and harmonics above allowed levels on to non-ham frequencies, you should have your license taken away.

Your comments are indicative of the greater problem affecting licensed amateur radio operators, which is a lack of education, awareness and understanding of the gear they are acquiring for $30, and putting on the air.

There’s also the issue of TDMA timing tolerances, which some of the Chinese garbage does not respect. Signals from certain radios/models/brands absolutely do bleed over into the adjacent timeslot, and cause harmful interference to those users. Hams should understand this. They have a responsibility and expectation to be competent. Too many hams get their technician or basic class licenses, and the education stops.

Another point you should consider, is ham branded digital formats, such as DSTAR (ICOM) and System Fusion (Yaesu) are also limited to one brand, with the slight exception of the Kenwood TH-D74A being capable of operating on DSTAR. The “Motorola elitist“ argument holds no ground and is hypocritical.

Used Motorola gear is approximately 1/2 the price of new DSTAR radios. Further, used analogue Motorola gear is about the same price as new cheap Chinese garbage. Yet hams continue to buy it and pollute the spectrum with it, and force others to listen to terrible low/distorted audio. CCR users complain about unreliable communications caused by front-end receiver overload.

If you don’t want to learn anything or think you know it all because you have an extra class license, it’s time to start educating yourself and getting some real world commercial experience so your arguments hold ground. Otherwise, it’s all noise. You didn’t even bother responding to anything I wrote, other than offering one short sentence of nonsense.
 

k9wkj

Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
455
Reaction score
164
Location
where they make the cheese
just to toss a bucket of gas on the fire
ARES (should be renamed to Amateur Radio Community Service, as ham radio is not an emergency service and it’s whacker to call it as such)

here is the first par and sub of US CFR (code of federal regulations) of part 97
§ 97.1 Basis and purpose.
The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:
(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.


what the Canadian government says is I am sure is much different, is Amateur radio even established as a service in Canada?

as for the trunking topic
nothing wrong with it what so ever
in our area I see no benefit at all as all of our repeaters are spread out in location
which does help ensure things stay running with tornadoes and power outs and the like
 

Mars_P25

Paid RR Supporter
Banned
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
130
k9wkj said:
what the Canadian government says is I am sure is much different, is Amateur radio even established as a service in Canada?
Come on man, stop talking stupid. Do you think Canada is an island as well? You know better.

You are absolutely entitled to your comments and I respect what you have to say. But amateur radio is not an emergency service. Amateur radio is suited to provide communications services and support to our communities and events. Marathons, water sports, parades — whatever. It’s good karma. Walking around wearing a fluorescent vest that says “Emergency Communications“ on the back, is anti-social and whacker. It’s completely unnecessary. The only time I have ever worn a fluorescent vest is when I have been standing on a roadway or in a large crowd, and the “block captain“ appreciated the visibility in case they needed to find me. The vest had nothing written on it.

If and when a natural disaster strikes, communications professionals will restore Public Safety communications. Many modern systems are digital and networked, Hams don’t have the background or training to maintain those systems. They also don’t have liability insurance, the background checks or the tools needed to repair these systems or knowledge of existing configurations and procedures. That doesn’t make hams bad. It just means they have no business getting involved at that level.

That said, if a county or area government requires the assistance of amateur radio operators until such time as infrastructure can be repaired, I’m all for it. Again, amateur radio is not an emergency service. We don’t call 911 and ask for ham radio operators to respond. We simply lend a hand via our equipment and time.

This is not “crap on hams“ day. This (thread) is a dose of reality which all of us can benefit from in terms of why amateur radio is not at the level of innovation and progression it used to be known for.

I’ve maintained a license for 25 years. That doesn’t make me special. The learning process never stops. There’s always something new to read about or become familiar with. Acquiring an amateur radio license does not make one an expert or qualified to do anything except speak into a microphone (or send data, code, whatever) on the frequencies allocated to us. And some people even have trouble doing that.

I made the mistake of mentioning ARES. Let’s keep the discussion focused on trunking on ham frequencies.
 

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
7,393
Reaction score
2,336
Location
Sector 001
This (thread) is a dose of reality which all of us can benefit from in terms of why amateur radio is not at the level of innovation and progression it used to be known for.

Instead of leading the innovation curve, amateur radio has fallen behind.

DStar is protocol that could be on the other side of that curve, but was left to stagnate. It uses inferior modulation, has almost zero re-sync ability, and the gear is typical ham grade stuff.

The Icom DStar repeaters are junk. 2 ham grade mobiles in a box.

180-200mW of sub-standard audio, a front end that has next to zero filtering, and uses low quality accessories(except for the IC-92ad).

Fusion is in a similar boat. The repeaters are garbage. 2 ham mobiles in a box. The portables and mobiles are typical ham junk. Yaesu tried to make these radios do everything, and as a result they do everything mediocre, rather than making them excellent at being ham radios.

In many places in the US there is serious spectrum congestion, using TDMA allows for spectrum efficiency. Especially with amateur radios fervent refusal to use narrowband emissions.

Trunking, especially Motorola’s LCP and Hytera’s XPT, gives flexibility in not locking talkgroups to timeslots. Especially with amateur radios fervent refusal to use narrowband emissions.

Neither of those trunking formats require extensive back end equipment like Tier3 trunking does.

The only leading edge stuff I can think of are the HF weak signal modes like FT8.

I’ve maintained a license for 25 years. That doesn’t make me special. The learning process never stops. There’s always something new to read about or become familiar with. Acquiring an amateur radio license does not make one an expert or qualified to do anything except speak into a microphone (or send data, code, whatever) on the frequencies allocated to us. And some people even have trouble doing that.

Spot on Mars. The hobby is all about life long learning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

k9wkj

Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
455
Reaction score
164
Location
where they make the cheese
now I want to ask a question about trunking or more to the point TDMA
what ever happend to that outfit that was going to market a radio/technology (which I assume was DMR)
that would eventually give us 4 time slots?
if I recall the fellas were in FL and Germany
that would be like on the fly trunking
I thought that was pretty cool, but they seem to have vaporized
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top