Using a TV Preamp for a repeater?

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AK4GA

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i see someone tried to improve the GE repeater with a MSR/PURC power supply! ;) .

Believe it or not but everything in that cabinet including the cabinet was free.

I really need to fab up some tabs to rack mount that thing and free up the shelf for something else like link radios. I also have a Micor "Quarter Kw" in the garage waiting to find a purpose. The tricky part is there is absolutely no way I could get a repeater running at much over 100w into the cans let alone 250w coordinated, and some PAs tend to put out some nasty spur when turned down low. I may swap the PA with a lower power one and re-purpose the big one for something else.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can do it right on the cheap.
 
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WQFM513

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i know from personal experience a tv preamp will work. i used one on my gmrs repeater, could not use the duplexer with it though. i had to have 50+ feet of antenna separation before anything would work right. i didnt have 50 horizontal feet to play with, so my rx antenna was way above my tx antenna. weak signals came in a lot louder, but still full of static. my rx range outran my tx range because of the height issues of my tx antenna
point is, the tv pre amp will work, just not that great. antenna height is a better fix.
 

davidgcet

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except when using high Q duplexers or good preselectors in the unit, i have always had to add an extra bottle for more filtering everytime i've added a preamp to a repeater. come off the duplexer to the preamp, then to the new added bottle, then to the RX input. you will give up 20-30% of what you gain, but it knocks out the desense.
 

zz0468

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...i have always had to add an extra bottle for more filtering everytime i've added a preamp to a repeater.

Or two. Sometimes one isn't enough to completely eliminate the desense and overload. And that's with a GOOD preamp.

come off the duplexer to the preamp, then to the new added bottle, then to the RX input. you will give up 20-30% of what you gain, but it knocks out the desense.

I'd put the cavity between the duplexer and the preamp. Putting it after the preamp may protect the receiver from off frequency crud, but it does nothing to prevent the preamp from generating ON frequency crud. One common configuration is duplexer - cavity (or two)- preamp - attenuator (to keep the receiver from overloading from too much preamp gain.

The second cavity and any attenuation would be in response to some specific problem. But I do want to point out that too much gain in front of a receiver can be a Bad Thing.
 
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Well I do not have a duplexor yet. i am running 4 watts TX and the antennas are far apart... mainly testing sofar but i noticed preamps are expensive so i was wondering if a cheap tv preamp will do before getting a duplexer... which i was planning on making.because of expenses... keeping low budget
 

zz0468

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Well I do not have a duplexor yet. i am running 4 watts TX and the antennas are far apart... mainly testing sofar but i noticed preamps are expensive so i was wondering if a cheap tv preamp will do before getting a duplexer... which i was planning on making.because of expenses... keeping low budget

Have you determined that you actually need a preamp? A 4 watt repeater made from HT's is a pretty good match to talk local to 4 watt HT's. Adding a preamp may be an invitation to problems. If you keep the gain low enough to equalize rx performance through the duplexer (although there's only so far you can go with that) a TV preamp might work fine. If you crank the power to 200 watts as discussed in your other thread, you'll probably crunch the snot out of the preamp, unless you're running a $1500 duplexer - and even then there's no guarantees with an unknown quality TV grade preamp. They're known for being cheap. They're not known for working well in high signal environments, such as behind a repeater duplexer.
 
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well yes 200Watts is a bit much but i am looking to setup a system that will perform for like 10 miles around my house... i am not located on a hill so i only have antennas about 30 ft..
any suggestions?
 

zz0468

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well yes 200Watts is a bit much but i am looking to setup a system that will perform for like 10 miles around my house... i am not located on a hill so i only have antennas about 30 ft..
any suggestions?

Yes. Get a pair of Maxtracs, or Spectras, run them at about 10 or 20 watts, no preamp, no amplifier, and you could use a flat-pack mobile duplexer. Use 6-8 db gain on the antenna.
 

AK4GA

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Yes. Get a pair of Maxtracs, or Spectras, run them at about 10 or 20 watts, no preamp, no amplifier, and you could use a flat-pack mobile duplexer. Use 6-8 db gain on the antenna.

I would second this advice. Make sure you get one for the correct frequency. You can find "flatpacks" all day long on ebay but they tend to be for the upper 400 mhz range outside the ham band. They exist but you have to look.
 
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jumpbootz

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Howdy. I am new here.

TV preamps are 75ohm versus the 50ohm impedance your repeater is more comfortable with. What does that really mean? An impedance mismatch means less than desirable performance.

That being said, give it a try. Although, before you do, I recommend doing a little math first... A good rule of thumb is to assume there will be a .5db of loss per connector (approx), PLUS whatever loss is incurred through the filtering circuit (pre-selector/receiver multi-coupler/duplexer) PLUS whatever loss occurs through the interconnecting cables. Add it all up and you have a rough idea of how much loss you need to recover to get back to where you started.

For example, start with a -100db signal (distant station) and ADD -5db of loss for 4 RF connectors (-5db x 4 RF commectors- feed line to polyphaser to multi-coupler to receiver) and we get -120dbm (not good). -120dbm is well into the noise floor and past the signal/noise threshold. But don't fret... we can remedy this by throwing in a handy dandy 16db preamp and bump our loss back up to -106dbm (not bad).

Sounds good huh? Well, not always. Pre-amps don't just amplify weak signals, they amplify the garbage too. In my experience pre-amps can be a real pain in the back side. I only use them to recover the loss I incurred from the coupling. Bottom line- match your loss.

Long story short, give it a try. BTW, be sure and change the connectors out on the preamp to something a little more 50ohm friendly (so239/bnc/-n-/etc.).

Cheers!

john
 

zz0468

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Howdy. I am new here.

Hello! Welcome...

Well, don't take this wrong but I'd like to make some comments to your post.

TV preamps are 75ohm versus the 50ohm impedance your repeater is more comfortable with. What does that really mean? An impedance mismatch means less than desirable performance.

The fact is, preamps and receiver front ends rarely actually meet whatever their specified input and output impedance is supposed to be. You might be able to measure differences in otherwise identical preamps, but in practice, it's not likely to be noticed. If you look at the input and output return loss specifications on even high end preamps, you'll see that it can be pretty dismal. Preamps are usually matched for minimum noise figure, and that can be mutually exclusive of best match at 50 or 75 ohms.

That being said, give it a try. Although, before you do, I recommend doing a little math first... A good rule of thumb is to assume there will be a .5db of loss per connector (approx), PLUS whatever loss is incurred through the filtering circuit (pre-selector/receiver multi-coupler/duplexer) PLUS whatever loss occurs through the interconnecting cables. Add it all up and you have a rough idea of how much loss you need to recover to get back to where you started.

0.5 db loss per connector is actually way high for properly installed connectors. It's more like 0.1 db per, or less.


For example, start with a -100db signal (distant station) and ADD -5db of loss for 4 RF connectors (-5db x 4 RF commectors- feed line to polyphaser to multi-coupler to receiver) and we get -120dbm (not good).

Your math is WAY off... 4 connectors at 0.5 db would be 2 db. You just did 4 connectors at 5 db for 20 db loss.


-120dbm is well into the noise floor and past the signal/noise threshold. But don't fret... we can remedy this by throwing in a handy dandy 16db preamp and bump our loss back up to -106dbm (not bad).

That would bring you to -104 dbm, but that's actually not really significant. In the case of a preamp, it's really all about the noise figure, and not so much about the gain. The preamp noise figure MUST be lower than the receiver noise figure, or there will be no weak signal improvement. The gain needs to be just enough to overcome the receiver noise figure, and whatever losses there may be between the preamp and the receiver. Too much gain can put the next stage into compression, and that will destroy the total receiver noise figure.

Sounds good huh? Well, not always. Pre-amps don't just amplify weak signals, they amplify the garbage too. In my experience pre-amps can be a real pain in the back side. I only use them to recover the loss I incurred from the coupling. Bottom line- match your loss.

Long story short, give it a try. BTW, be sure and change the connectors out on the preamp to something a little more 50ohm friendly (so239/bnc/-n-/etc.).

Well, this is true. Preamps CAN be a pain in the ***, but that's usually because they are seriously misunderstood.

One last comment about the adapters... again, the loss is about 0.1 db per adapter, so as long as you don't over do it, below 1000 MHz, adding an adapter to a cable is insignificant. How do I know? I measured a TON of adapters and connectors.
 
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jumpbootz

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Hello zz0468,

Wow, my math was way off! That’s what I get for posting at the end of the day. Thanks!

Without any real idea of what the noise floor looks like in his neck of the woods, I can only offer general planning considerations. Our rule of thumb has always been to calculate a half db for connector, kind of like planning for the worst. I would much rather have to attenuate than invite the vampire into my receiver by throwing a preamp into the mix. After all, it wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark.

Receiver input has always been the real issue. Despite my best efforts, tx coverage always seems to overshoot the stations ability to rx. I have always been amazed at how well a station could talk with its final gone; running on exciter only to a subscriber, yet the same subscriber is noisy coming back in.

What are the conditions that have lead you to believe you needed a preamp? Has something changed or are you trying to enhance coverage? Zz0468 is spot on, before I got into the preamp installing business I would sweep the antenna with a tdr/fdr, measure return loss, check the feedline for water, check the lightening protection, and inject through the filtering system to determine what the receiver is actually getting. Do you have a 6' standoff from the tower/structure? Any down tilt (intentional or otherwise)? Short of funding a mosaic study or shelling out the bucks for a voting system, check the basics first. Then I would give the tv preamp a try.
 

AK4GA

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What are the conditions that have lead you to believe you needed a preamp? Has something changed or are you trying to enhance coverage? Zz0468 is spot on, before I got into the preamp installing business I would sweep the antenna with a tdr/fdr, measure return loss, check the feedline for water, check the lightening protection, and inject through the filtering system to determine what the receiver is actually getting. Do you have a 6' standoff from the tower/structure? Any down tilt (intentional or otherwise)? Short of funding a mosaic study or shelling out the bucks for a voting system, check the basics first. Then I would give the tv preamp a try.

The conditions he is experiencing is he doesn't have a clue WTF he is doing.

His "repeater" consists of a controller and two HTs.
 
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???

The conditions he is experiencing is he doesn't have a clue WTF he is doing.

His "repeater" consists of a controller and two HTs.

Its not just that, this is really a side project and i am keeping a low budget. It was experamental. But i have improved the system a bit after seeing how it workd out. I am only 15 years old.

To see the improvments visit The KB1VSP Repeater under the Repeater info page
 
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