Was there a recent FCC opinion prohibiting GMRS repeater linking via IP (Zello, etc.) ?

[Cyberian]

Was there a recent FCC opinion prohibiting GMRS repeater linking via IP (Zello, etc.) ?

 

[MTS2000des]

The only documented response from the FCC is in this Reddit (which is trash, Reddit is trash) is that yes and no, yes if the VoiP connection is provided someone other than the local telephone company, in other words, your IP connection is via the cable company, a wireless telecom provider (T-Mobile, Verizon, AT&T Mobility) but if it's the telcom provider (DSL) it's prohibited. Makes about as much sense as boobs on a bull.

If there is a new opinion or official response it isn't in any searchable public document I can find.

 

[jeepsandradios]

There has been some chatter about this on mygmrs but until I see a rule change from the FCC nothing will happen.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

These are the rules adopted in 2017. Bear in mind that the 2017 rules have a couple errors, fragments of rules written decades before which have reference paragraphs deleted in past, which were likely written around Telco interconnection prohibition. Remember that the entire prohibition on interconnection was a protective measure for ATT and Ma Bell long distance services. Remember LATA's? They no longer exist. I doubt anyone alive today has a good memory of the reasoning of some of the rules and subsequent changes. It would take a good bit of research of the record. I am not going to cite those conflicting rules here. Do your own research and keep in mind the past reason interconnect prohibition existed.

§ 95.1745 GMRS remote control.

Notwithstanding the prohibition in § 95.345, GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations may be operated by remote control.

§ 95.1747 GMRS automatic control.

Notwithstanding the prohibition in § 95.347, GMRS repeater stations may be operated by automatic control.

§ 95.1749 GMRS network connection.

Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited, as in § 95.349. GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745.

So a station may be operated by remote control, may be automatically operated by remote control. may be connected to the PSTN or other networks for operation by remote control.

What constitutes operation?:

 

[sallen07]

General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS)

AboutRule Part47 C.F.R, Part 95 Subpart ERadio Service Code(s)ZA - GMRS

www.fcc.gov

Click on the "Operations" tab and you will see this:

"You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations."

AFAIK this is not "new". Maybe "newly noticed". And there are those who argue that 'this doesn't count' because it's not in Part 95 E. But IMHO it is. "for the sole purpose" means not for any other purpose.

§ 95.1749 GMRS network connection.

Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited, as in § 95.349. GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745.

Until and unless the FCC starts enforcing that prohibition, I guess it doesn't really matter though.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS)

AboutRule Part47 C.F.R, Part 95 Subpart ERadio Service Code(s)ZA - GMRS

www.fcc.gov

Click on the "Operations" tab and you will see this:

"You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations."

AFAIK this is not "new". Maybe "newly noticed". And there are those who argue that 'this doesn't count' because it's not in Part 95 E. But IMHO it is. "for the sole purpose" means not for any other purpose.

§ 95.1749 GMRS network connection.

Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited, as in § 95.349. GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745.

Until and unless the FCC starts enforcing that prohibition, I guess it doesn't really matter though.

But what is FCC definition of "operation"? In most references it includes conveyance of messages and program materials. The FCC is not keen on "dead air". I will argue that the intent is to permit operation of a remote GMRS station, voice and all, with termination to the telephone network being the intended prohibition. In 2017 the FCC was requested to clarify the rules, but they punted, because frankly they had not considered the conflicting language and interpretations in their own rules. The record shows that the FCC has chosen not to do any field enforcement to any stations that are networked.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The wording was changed on or before Nov 30, 2021. Is it more permissive? I think the wording ", but" sets a permissive tone.

The operations tab from General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) via the Wayback machine:

June 9, 2017
You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

Sept 8, 2017

You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

Nov 29, 2018

You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

Oct 31, 2020

You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

June 23, 2021

You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

Nov 30, 2021

You can expect a communications range of one to twenty-five miles depending on station class, terrain and repeater use. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations.

Dec 5, 2021

You can expect a communications range of one to twenty-five miles depending on station class, terrain and repeater use. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations.

Jan 18, 2024

You can expect a communications range of one to twenty-five miles depending on station class, terrain and repeater use. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations.

 

[prcguy]

The wording was changed on or before Nov 30, 2021. Is it more permissive? I think the wording ", but" sets a permissive tone.

The operations tab from General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) via the Wayback machine:

June 9, 2017
You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

Sept 8, 2017

You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

Nov 29, 2018

You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

Oct 31, 2020

You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

June 23, 2021

You can expect a communications range of five to twenty-five miles. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

Nov 30, 2021

You can expect a communications range of one to twenty-five miles depending on station class, terrain and repeater use. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations.

Dec 5, 2021

You can expect a communications range of one to twenty-five miles depending on station class, terrain and repeater use. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations.

Jan 18, 2024

You can expect a communications range of one to twenty-five miles depending on station class, terrain and repeater use. You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations.

So the way I read this is pretty obvious and prohibits linking of GMRS repeaters that convey the same conversation to multiple repeaters at multiple sites. You can only remote control them as in turning on and off, enabling tones, etc. So who is going to call the FCC about all these stupid linked repeaters consuming every repeater pair in many places?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

remote control of repeater stations USPTO

US4317218A - Arrangement for remote control of repeater stations - Google Patents

A control arrangement for a radio communication system in which mobile users communicate with one another and with a central dispatcher via repeaters. In a first embodiment, the repeater station providing the best quality received signal from a mobile station is caused to re-transmit that signal...

patents.google.com

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

So the way I read this is pretty obvious and prohibits linking of GMRS repeaters that convey the same conversation to multiple repeaters at multiple sites. You can only remote control them as in turning on and off, enabling tones, etc. So who is going to call the FCC about all these stupid linked repeaters consuming every repeater pair in many places?

Probably a Sad Ham (tm) . I would not want to be that guy.

 

[amcferrin90]

I believe the reasoning for not connecting to a telephone network is related to using a phone patch on a GMRS repeater. You would not use a telephone network to connect to a repeater or else it would be always connected and active yes? The data however via DSL, cable, fiber, or other technology seems to be ok. Probably even RF link. Some may be looking at these FCC rules as a gate where I believe these FCC rules are only providing instruction. As in not "shall not" but "how to".

 

[prcguy]

I believe the reasoning for not connecting to a telephone network is related to using a phone patch on a GMRS repeater. You would not use a telephone network to connect to a repeater or else it would be always connected and active yes? The data however via DSL, cable, fiber, or other technology seems to be ok. Probably even RF link. Some may be looking at these FCC rules as a gate where I believe these FCC rules are only providing instruction. As in not "shall not" but "how to".

Your rationalizing what the FCC is stating to fit what you want. You might as well say speed limit signs are just a suggestion. The most current FCC rule listed above states this and read it about a dozen times. "You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications".

In other words and regarding connecting a GMRS station to the telephone network or any other network as in the Internet for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, or taking a conversation from one GMRS repeater and using the Internet to get that conversation to another GMRS repeater in another area, you cannot. To me "cannot" means the same as "you shall not" or "you will be in big trouble if you do this, so don't piss us off". What is hard to understand about that? You cannot, shall not link GMRS repeaters together and have a conversation go between two or more repeaters via the Internet, which is what some people are doing and think its legal. The FCC clearly says you cannot do that.

 

[amcferrin90]

Your rationalizing what the FCC is stating to fit what you want. You might as well say speed limit signs are just a suggestion. The most current FCC rule listed above states this and read it about a dozen times. "You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications".

In other words and regarding connecting a GMRS station to the telephone network or any other network as in the Internet for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, or taking a conversation from one GMRS repeater and using the Internet to get that conversation to another GMRS repeater in another area, you cannot. To me "cannot" means the same as "you shall not" or "you will be in big trouble if you do this, so don't piss us off". What is hard to understand about that? You cannot, shall not link GMRS repeaters together and have a conversation go between two or more repeaters via the Internet, which is what some people are doing and think its legal. The FCC clearly says you cannot do that.

I'm not rationalizing anything. How old is the language? I do know phone interconnects are not allowed. If the others weren't, with all of the linked repeaters over the Internet and cellular I think they would have stepped up by now. Instead they're probably like a large community of others that say "oh boy someone's brought up the dead horse again, let's watch". If you're being affected by linked repeaters, file a complaint. Grabbing on about it here or on mygmrs.com or wherever is not filing a complaint. Better yet, you call the FCC and tell us what they say.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Your rationalizing what the FCC is stating to fit what you want. You might as well say speed limit signs are just a suggestion. The most current FCC rule listed above states this and read it about a dozen times. "You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications".

In other words and regarding connecting a GMRS station to the telephone network or any other network as in the Internet for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, or taking a conversation from one GMRS repeater and using the Internet to get that conversation to another GMRS repeater in another area, you cannot. To me "cannot" means the same as "you shall not" or "you will be in big trouble if you do this, so don't piss us off". What is hard to understand about that? You cannot, shall not link GMRS repeaters together and have a conversation go between two or more repeaters via the Internet, which is what some people are doing and think its legal. The FCC clearly says you cannot do that.

Yet they don't actually say that, and if that is what FCC means it is not stated clearly or this conversation would not exist.

 

[mmckenna]

You cannot directly interconnect a GMRS station with the telephone network.

As you, I and many others know, but probably a lot of the younger generation do not, the early way of linking repeaters to other repeaters, DC/tone remote terminals, etc. was via the telephone network using conditioned/dry pairs.

So this probably does not just mean prohibition of auto patch type use on GMRS.

I suspect it's old language. GMRS doesn't get touched by the FCC magic wand very often, so probably old left over stuff from "back in the day". When they rewrote the GMRS rules a while back, they seemed to mess up a few things. I seem to recall, at that time, that most of us were just happy that it hadn't been forced to license by rule, and we overlooked a lot of this stuff.

Maybe submitting a Petition for Rule making to the FCC would be a good start. Get them to rewrite this rule and put it up for comment. Justification is there, thanks to these groups that have sucked up all 8 pairs. Written correctly, I think the FCC would agree that this would be worth opening for comment.

 

[vagrant]

Hey Uncle Charlie,

Some clarity is needed for some friends of mine…for a service where repeater coordination is not allowed…where the service must be shared amongst licensed operators….yet they want to broadcast on multiple repeaters across multiple states and or wide regions simultaneously, sometimes occupying one and or all allowed repeater pairs in areas so as to disallow and or severely restrict local communications.

What‘s that? It is allowed for amateur use and people can get a license for that if they want to do that? You never intended GMRS to be linked like that? Oh, so that‘s why GMRS and FRS share most frequencies since those services are meant for lower power local communications. Ahhh…yes the one to 25 mile expectation. Local indeed.

Thanks Uncle Charlie

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

A 25 mile limitation is not codified into the GMRS rules. CB has or once had a 250 mile limitation.

There is a technical means to protect a given channel for co-channel use by two or more independently operated repeaters, even when one is linked. It is simply some logic to detect co channel activity on the linked repeater input that does not have the PL or DCS tone used by that repeater. If such "foreign" carrier is detected, the repeater goes into a polite mode, not transmitting for a certain amount of time that has elapsed. This is especially effective for automatically monitoring before transmitting between linked repeaters. The hardware to do this is trivial.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

As you, I and many others know, but probably a lot of the younger generation do not, the early way of linking repeaters to other repeaters, DC/tone remote terminals, etc. was via the telephone network using conditioned/dry pairs.

So this probably does not just mean prohibition of auto patch type use on GMRS.

I suspect it's old language. GMRS doesn't get touched by the FCC magic wand very often, so probably old left over stuff from "back in the day". When they rewrote the GMRS rules a while back, they seemed to mess up a few things. I seem to recall, at that time, that most of us were just happy that it hadn't been forced to license by rule, and we overlooked a lot of this stuff.

Maybe submitting a Petition for Rule making to the FCC would be a good start. Get them to rewrite this rule and put it up for comment. Justification is there, thanks to these groups that have sucked up all 8 pairs. Written correctly, I think the FCC would agree that this would be worth opening for comment.

I think some of the errant language in GMRS rules also stemmed from a time where automatic control (repeater) was a new concept and the FCC wanted control operators to disable the repeater. Part 97 had some similar requirement where an RF control link, for on and off control , was required in a different frequency band.

 

[prcguy]

Yet they don't actually say that, and if that is what FCC means it is not stated clearly or this conversation would not exist.

I've worked in a corporate position where I had to interpret FCC rules, respond to complaints and provide information to keep my company out of the FCCs sights. I did a lot of the foot work our expensive FCC attorneys in D.C. took credit for. In my opinion the latest dated FCC statement above covers many bases from using a telephone interconnect to linking distant repeaters together and many other things.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I've worked in a corporate position where I had to interpret FCC rules, respond to complaints and provide information to keep my company out of the FCCs sights. I did a lot of the foot work our expensive FCC attorneys in D.C. took credit for. In my opinion the latest dated FCC statement above covers many bases from using a telephone interconnect to linking distant repeaters together and many other things.

I have the same work responsibilities. So what exactly is Operation of a Station? Why would the definition of Operate/Operation be any different for GMRS?

§ 95.1745 GMRS remote control.

Notwithstanding the prohibition in § 95.345, GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations may be operated by remote control.