Wasn’t P25 supposed to solve all interoperability problems?

[nokones]

In my 36 year career, I've been retired for almost 20 years now, I have been involved in two different National Political Conventions, a World Cup Soccer, Olympics, and numerous VIP Motorcades, not once did the Secret Service handed out radios or let any non-Secret Service Agent communicate on their secured channel. Also, they don't let anyone else ride in their Command Vehicle in the motorcades. Most of the time, they had an Agent, wearing an earpiece so you can't hear the traffic, that would ride with the involved supporting Agency in their Command/Lead Vehicle and would relay any pertinent information.

The Secret Service was very difficult to work with. They essentially would not let you do anything without an Agent babysitting you even months ahead when at the event venue.

They had a whole new meaning to the word "secret".

 

[buddrousa]

Interoperability is solved by proper radio programming and multi agency training.
Following SOP's and protocols Following NIMS guidelines.

 

[N6JPA]

Well, P25 will certainly solve your interoperability problems if you all use the same radio channel. But when you don’t come out, this is exactly what happens-

Since the Secret Service is VHF and all of the local governments are probably 700/800, they would have needed to be patched. But at such an important event with so many well-funded agencies, that should have been no problem.

They could have used the national police frequency of 155.475. You don't need repeaters or fancy trunked systems to use that frequency since every cop or SS is line of sight. But engineers and corporations will make big money by giving a fancy solution to the problem. It is no different then the Ham Radio National Simplex frequency of 146.52 MHz which 95% of hams have access to.

 

[buddrousa]

Not every public safety agency uses VHF.
But you can link simplex vhf uhf 700 800 all together and it will work. But it takes planning and buying the correct equipment

 

[nokones]

P25 (APCO Project 25) was a standard developed for radio manufacturers to adopt a common air interface because of the various disparate digital radio protocols that prevented radio interoperability. At the time when Project 25 was developed, most of the radio manufacturers such as General Electric (GE)/Ericsson/MACOM/now Harris, and other manufacturers were reluctant to adopt the P25 standard because it was essentially a Motorola driven technology thus they all refused to follow that common air interface standard. APCO was pretty much set on the P25 CAI and I believe EF Johnson was the only other manufacturer that adopted the original P25 standard.

I've been out of the game for almost 20 years now so, I don't know what led up to what changed the minds of Motorola to make the change.

It is my understanding that most of the manufacturers have adopted the P25 Phase II standard for a common air interface.

 

[nokones]

Not every public safety agency uses VHF.
But you can link simplex vhf uhf 700 800 all together and it will work. But it takes planning and buying the correct equipment

I was linking LowBand VHF, VHF HighBand, UHF, and 800 MHz repeated systems together for radio interoperability decades before going all the way back to the early 80s, and before the word/term radio interoperability was even a buzz word, and before there was any ACU1000 type devices ever thought of. The linked systems were both Fixed and Mobile systems. JPS essentially got ACU1000 design concept from me when I was on-loan/assigned to a Federal Radio Interoperability Project in the early 90s.

It was very simple. It was nothing more than manipulating a few electrons. There are only two elements involved not including the hardware/equipment. Audio and keying. Thats it. Of course, you had to have some logic/controller for the control of the equipment. That was nothing more than a little itty bitty board for the mobile devices in a mobile environment. The fixed system was a tad more sophisticated but still a very simple design with basic run-of-the-mill off-the-shelf fixed system equipment.

 

[buddrousa]

P25 Phase II is only in the TRUNKING FORMAT as of now.
Been there done that Having passed the 2nd Class General Radio Telephone Licensee in 1978 I know all about it. Went to School passed 2nd Class then finished Electronics School in 1979 as a Hobby until I got old enough to be hired as a Fulltime Paid Firefighter.

 

[nokones]

They could have used the national police frequency of 155.475. You don't need repeaters or fancy trunked systems to use that frequency since every cop or SS is line of sight. But engineers and corporations will make big money by giving a fancy solution to the problem. It is no different then the Ham Radio National Simplex frequency of 146.52 MHz which 95% of hams have access to.

In California, 155.475 MHz was known at NLEMARS - National Law Enforcement Mutual Radio System before they started identifying mutual aid channels as VTACs and UTACs. If I remember correctly, repeaters were not allowed, just base stations and mobiles and the base stations had a height limitation. Anyways, if a repeater was allowed, good luck in identifying an available repeater input channel statewide in California.

 

[N4DES]

P25 (APCO Project 25) was a standard developed for radio manufacturers to adopt a common air interface because of the various disparate digital radio protocols that prevented radio interoperability. At the time when Project 25 was developed, most of the radio manufacturers such as General Electric (GE)/Ericsson/MACOM/now Harris, and other manufacturers were reluctant to adopt the P25 standard because it was essentially a Motorola driven technology thus they all refused to follow that common air interface standard. APCO was pretty much set on the P25 CAI and I believe EF Johnson was the only other manufacturer that adopted the original P25 standard.

I've been out of the game for almost 20 years now so, I don't know what led up to what changed the minds of Motorola to make the change.

It is my understanding that most of the manufacturers have adopted the P25 Phase II standard for a common air interface.

No, the P25 CAI is not a Motorola product. It was designed by Digital Voice Systems. Motorola offered their VSELP product as their solution for the P25 CAI technology and it was rejected by APCO.

P25 standards use the proprietary Improved Multi-Band Excitation (IMBE) and Advanced Multi-Band Excitation (AMBE+2) voice codecs which were designed by Digital Voice Systems, Inc. to encode/decode the analog audio signals.

Project 25 - Wikipedia

 

[KevinC]

No, the P25 CAI is not a Motorola product. It was designed by Digital Voice Systems. Motorola offered their VSELP product as their solution for the P25 CAI technology and it was rejected by APCO.

P25 standards use the proprietary Improved Multi-Band Excitation (IMBE) and Advanced Multi-Band Excitation (AMBE+2) voice codecs which were designed by Digital Voice Systems, Inc. to encode/decode the analog audio signals.

Project 25 - Wikipedia

It’s still Motorolas fault.

 

[kayn1n32008]

They could have used the national police frequency of 155.475. You don't need repeaters or fancy trunked systems to use that frequency since every cop or SS is line of sight. But engineers and corporations will make big money by giving a fancy solution to the problem. It is no different then the Ham Radio National Simplex frequency of 146.52 MHz which 95% of hams have access to.

I'd stick to ham radio. You really have no clue.

 

[Unitrunker2]

P25 (APCO Project 25) was a standard developed for radio manufacturers to adopt a common air interface because of the various disparate digital radio protocols that prevented radio interoperability. At the time when Project 25 was developed, most of the radio manufacturers such as General Electric (GE)/Ericsson/MACOM/now Harris, and other manufacturers were reluctant to adopt the P25 standard because it was essentially a Motorola driven technology thus they all refused to follow that common air interface standard.

There is some truth to this. MA/COM/Tyco proposed EDACS ProVoice (as EIA/TIA/TSB 69) to compete with Motorola's ASTRO derived proposal. Motorola came out on top there. This happened again when Motorola promoted P25 X2 TDMA but this time Motorola was voted down by the other APCO members in favor of what today is Phase 2 TDMA.

 

[KevinC]

There is some truth to this. MA/COM/Tyco proposed EDACS ProVoice (as EIA/TIA/TSB 69) to compete with Motorola's ASTRO derived proposal. Motorola came out on top there. This happened again when Motorola promoted P25 X2 TDMA but this time Motorola was voted down by the other APCO members in favor of what today is Phase 2 TDMA.

And as we all know, the "H" in H-DQPSK is harmonized, as in a blend of ideas from different manufacturers.

 

[KC3ECJ]

I'd stick to ham radio. You really have no clue.

What's specifically wrong with his answer then?

 

[kayn1n32008]

What's specifically wrong with his answer then?

Where to start?

How about having hundreds, or potentially, thousands of radios on a single voice path.

Or having different functions, thay don't necessarily have to talk to each other, on the same voice path.

A single, solitary voice path, for an event of that scale is in itself asking for problems. Never mind access contention. With that many radios.

 

[KC3ECJ]

Where to start?

How about having hundreds, or potentially, thousands of radios on a single voice path.

Or having different functions, thay don't necessarily have to talk to each other, on the same voice path.

A single, solitary voice path, for an event of that scale is in itself asking for problems. Never mind access contention. With that many radios.

What thousands?
Were there thousands of emergency responders at the Butler event?
I don't think he meant they should be using it for primary comms.
But that the responders should have had the ability and know how to use this frequency for when something big does happen.

 

[buddrousa]

Too many people talking tying up resources.
This is why you FOLLOW NIMS and have a Command Trailer and a Communications Officer.
The information was passed up the chain of command what was done with it is what is in question.

 

[MTS2000des]

I'm always entertained at the inexperienced armchair quarterbacks who live in their parents' basement and become the most vocal on what they don't know.

Trigger words:
P25
Encryption
MOTOROLA

It's always the system techs/managers/admins. They are all stupid. ARES can save the day with their Bowelturds and roger beeps! Or call in the 8 channel army with their illegal linked GMRS repeater networks!

I should start writing a script for a three part Netflix series: The 8 Channel Army. The story of how GMRS and Sad Hams save us all from disaster.
No one would watch it because no one really cares.

 

[nokones]

I'm always entertained at the inexperienced armchair quarterbacks who live in their parents' basement and become the most vocal on what they don't know.

Trigger words:
P25
Encryption
MOTOROLA

It's always the system techs/managers/admins. They are all stupid. ARES can save the day with their Bowelturds and roger beeps! Or call in the 8 channel army with their illegal linked GMRS repeater networks!

I should start writing a script for a three part Netflix series: The 8 Channel Army. The story of how GMRS and Sad Hams save us all from disaster.
No one would watch it because no one really cares.

If you distribute it without commercial ads every 3-4 minutes or to Netflix commercial free, I may watch it if it is not filmed in a far-away non-english speaking land and with gloomy winter scenes, if I'm not too busy doing something.

 

[buddrousa]

You are the type that will never proven wrong even by people that have done this or done this for a living.
A bet is you have never been in NIMS classes.