Wasn’t P25 supposed to solve all interoperability problems?

[KevinC]

I wonder why /\/\ didn't win the deal! ;:^{

Or Kenwood or Tait or Icom?

 

[Echo4Thirty]

I often say that technology cannot fix a people problem. They could have patched in VHF, UHF, 700/800, Walmart, 41MHz, GMRS and CB and had the same outcome.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I often say that technology cannot fix a people problem.

'radio problems' make a great excuse. This is from an AAR on the East Palestine train derailment.

"Further, the emergency response lacked efficient
coordination because the responding agencies did not have common radio channels."

They have been in the NIFOG for years, if someone failed to program them and or establish procedures to use them it does not mean it was a technology problem.

Former NIFOG editor Ross Merlin, who I and another forum member had the pleasure of working with, said in his talk at the Dayton hamfest that interoperability was mentioned in an AAR on the Titanic sinking.

 

[kb4he]

ACU1000 is an excellent product and can certainly be of benefit when used in preplanned activities. However, having managed dozens of events all over the country, this is not a box you just through into an event and patch everyone together. One would expect Local, state and federal teams to all be playing out of the same book, but reality is they do not and throwing multiple teams who have not trained together on the same patched channel will be a disaster. If you have not planned it out and trained it out in advance, then Unified Command with team representatives together in the same room/tent is a must.

 

[kb4he]

Project 25 was to set standards for public safety grade radios.....to assist with inter-operability. But, it still requires coordination and effort. Common Air Interface, data baud rate and so on were standardized so you would not be locked into one brand or manufacturers products.

Get a copy of the NIFOG, program radios accordingly, and as others have said, use devices like the ACU-1000/M or similar, and make it happen. (Analog channels and pre-arranged interop channels should be used as well).

Post 9/11/2001 grant money was also supposed to be used to increase the interoperability capabilities of public safety organizations and their communications, but here we are, plus 23 years and still experiencing the human factors that make this less likely.

Reference the many threads on this site of people wanting to bring Baofeng radios to fire response efforts, purchase surplus gear on auction sites and listen to their local agencies digital and encrypted comms. Or, many that go cheap on life-safety related radios and their use. P25 is and remains a standard, or starting point for public safety grade radios.

P25 is nothing but a manufacturer and sales persons dream. There is no reason for P25 equipment to cost 3,4,5 times the cost of top tier NXDN or DMR equipment. And we all know every manufacturer could license their competitors digital protocol and incorporate in their products as all the equipment uses the same AMBE vocoder.

 

[kb4he]

I often say that technology cannot fix a people problem. They could have patched in VHF, UHF, 700/800, Walmart, 41MHz, GMRS and CB and had the same outcome.

You cannot fix an administrative problem with a technical solution. or vice versa.

 

[rr60]

P25 is nothing but a manufacturer and sales persons dream. There is no reason for P25 equipment to cost 3,4,5 times the cost of top tier NXDN or DMR equipment. And we all know every manufacturer could license their competitors digital protocol and incorporate in their products as all the equipment uses the same AMBE vocoder.

Sure there is…you could not get a federal grant.🤣

 

[SCFDCOMM]

From 2016 to 2020 we worked closely with the USSS, Coast Guard, and other local agencies coordinating the daily comms that protected 45, the "Southern White House", and his daily movements in Palm Beach County and never had issues from the initial coordination to actually putting the plans in action.

The USSS doesn't patch their comms to local systems by design. I believe someone at the CP wasn't doing their job relaying the information or there was a lot of hesitation by Command on what to do with the suspect.

per the USSS director, Unified Command was a total failure

 

[buddrousa]

And that came from the Man with the Plan. The Team that (could not would not) do their job and SECURE THE AREA (ALL OF IT).
Local Law reported they showed up at the meeting and the USSS never showed up to the meeting the day of the event PER NEWS REPORTS WITH LOCAL LAW.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Sure there is…you could not get a federal grant.🤣

The Federal match does not come close to paying for the cost of the P25 option. An agency could choose DMR, have similar features, interoperability on analog V/U and 800 MHz channels and pay a fraction.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

per the USSS director, Unified Command was a total failure

There will be additional training including a training day to instruct agents on how to re holster a weapon while fixing their hair and donning sunglasses.

 

[N4DES]

per the USSS director, Unified Command was a total failure

I wrote my post before they came clean and at the time was still finger pointing exercise.

 

[W2JEL]

I'm always entertained at the inexperienced armchair quarterbacks who live in their parents' basement and become the most vocal on what they don't know.

Trigger words:
P25
Encryption
MOTOROLA

It's always the system techs/managers/admins. They are all stupid. ARES can save the day with their Bowelturds and roger beeps! Or call in the 8 channel army with their illegal linked GMRS repeater networks!

I should start writing a script for a three part Netflix series: The 8 Channel Army. The story of how GMRS and Sad Hams save us all from disaster.
No one would watch it because no one really cares.

Please start writing, I would watch it just for the comedy.

 

[AK_SAR]

ProPublica has an interesting article about the failure. Sounds like no real Unified Command. After not hearing from the SS until right before the event, local LE had to set up their own separate command post.

Trump Assassination Attempt Laid Bare Long-standing Vulnerabilities in the Secret Service

A Spotlight PA, ProPublica and Butler Eagle investigation found the process for securing campaign events was susceptible to attack for years.

www.propublica.org

 

[DisasterGuy]

A few general comments…

-Interoperability isn’t a technology program
-Not everyone on an incident should be talking to or listening to everyone else on an incident.
-Unified Command and LNOs are how information flows between fed / locals on these types of events.
-I’ve supported operations and communications both for costs of sitting presidents as well as a pre-election Trump rally. All of my points above were valid in all of those situations.

 

[KC3ECJ]

Does anybody know if they had the State Police helicopter at the Butler event?
I mean gee, this past week I noticed a Coast Guard helicopter fly from inland over to a beach responding to a swimmer in trouble.
Apparently the Coast Guard had been listening to the lifeguard channels.

The State Police or the other Feds can't similarly be equipped for a presidential candidate?

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Does anybody know if they had the State Police helicopter at the Butler event?
I mean gee, this past week I noticed a Coast Guard helicopter fly from inland over to a beach responding to a swimmer in trouble.
Apparently the Coast Guard had been listening to the lifeguard channels.

The State Police or the other Feds can't similarly be equipped for a presidential candidate?

More typically these days you would see drones being used. For example, during SXSW APD and TCSO had no fewer than 6 drones airborne on overwatch at any given moment (weather allowing). The drones were getting eyes on the reported issues before other first responders even came on scene just due to how cities are typically laid out.

 

[AM909]

Seems to me that another drone showing up in a crowded airspace would be even harder to spot than a guy on a roof.

 

[PACNWDude]

While working for the oil industry, we had helicopters equipped with Technicsonic multi-band radios that were often programmed with Zones for many different agencies and entities.

Now, in a different life, helicopters in my sphere of influence have Cobham/AeroConnect multi-band radios with the guts of Motorola APX8000 series radios for multi-band interoperability. The end user also liked being able to make patches from the head unit in the helicopter itself.

As for drones, and the added complexity of using them, Motorola Solutions Inc. just sent me their brochure for CAPE "Drone Video & Flight Control Software". I get many emails for Motorola software, hardware, and bolt-on products. But this did make me look, as many places use drones for overwatch. My own local police department has sent them into houses to scout out hostile people in the past. Some, co-workers that were checking radio communications from over the weekend were then asking "we have drones"? I'm now wondering how the drone has a "box" around it to mitigate air incidents, even small ones, as this was an issue while in the military as well. But, I am still awaiting my Amazon drone to start delivering packages to my back yard too, I am in a heavily wooded area that could be a problem for small propeller craft.

Interop is becoming harder and harder, and basic communication is still key to any operation. Communication with co-worker, other people involved, share knowledge, and make quick actionable decisions when they are necessary!

 

[Project25_MASTR]

While working for the oil industry, we had helicopters equipped with Technicsonic multi-band radios that were often programmed with Zones for many different agencies and entities.

Now, in a different life, helicopters in my sphere of influence have Cobham/AeroConnect multi-band radios with the guts of Motorola APX8000 series radios for multi-band interoperability. The end user also liked being able to make patches from the head unit in the helicopter itself.

As for drones, and the added complexity of using them, Motorola Solutions Inc. just sent me their brochure for CAPE "Drone Video & Flight Control Software". I get many emails for Motorola software, hardware, and bolt-on products. But this did make me look, as many places use drones for overwatch. My own local police department has sent them into houses to scout out hostile people in the past. Some, co-workers that were checking radio communications from over the weekend were then asking "we have drones"? I'm now wondering how the drone has a "box" around it to mitigate air incidents, even small ones, as this was an issue while in the military as well. But, I am still awaiting my Amazon drone to start delivering packages to my back yard too, I am in a heavily wooded area that could be a problem for small propeller craft.

Interop is becoming harder and harder, and basic communication is still key to any operation. Communication with co-worker, other people involved, share knowledge, and make quick actionable decisions when they are necessary!

Texas Department of Public Safety hosts a TAK server that is available to all PS agencies in Texas. We've started deploying TAK to our wildland crews for simple dot on map AVL functions, shared mapping capabilites and the ability to quickly perform fire surveys from the command area. We are actually seeing TAK deployments all over the country now (CALFIRE, TN DPS and others). It's an interesting tool and we can even push drone feeds over it (sometimes I sit in my office and watch DPS or TMD drone ops down on the border from TAK). ATAK even has a UAS plugin that allows you to add some additional functionality (even control from ATAK).

TAK was interestingly developed by the USAF and has been deployed with DHS all over the world since. Simply another tool in the belt that when implemented can vastly improve that basic communications part. It's not two way radio but a great accessory there are even purpose built tactical radios for ATAK.