Wasn’t P25 supposed to solve all interoperability problems?

[nokones]

You are the type that will never proven wrong even by people that have done this or done this for a living.
A bet is you have never been in NIMS classes.

If you are referring to me, I have 100, 200, and 700.

 

[KevinC]

My NIMS is bigger than your NIMS.

 

[ecps92]

You are the type that will never proven wrong even by people that have done this or done this for a living.
A bet is you have never been in NIMS classes.

no need to throw around how much Toilet Paper/Wall Paper we all have or don't have of FEMA in-person and IS (Independent Study) certificates

 

[buddrousa]

Well if you are not trained in command and it policies then you will never understand how the system works.
So you have put your life on the line for others? I have never been in the Military so I do not tell them how to do their job as I am not trained to do so. We have standards that we have to follow for all things to get done. You have to know who is in charge and who you report to. We also train on this so when it hits the fan it is 2nd nature and the incident goes smooth.

 

[buddrousa]

Here it is.

 

[kayn1n32008]

I'm always entertained at the inexperienced armchair quarterbacks who live in their parents' basement and become the most vocal on what they don't know.

Trigger word:
Encryption

While I agree P25 and Motorola are also trigger words, nothing gets the arm chair interop experts/arm chair IC going faster than the word encryption. Hell most of them can't even write the damn word. It's always 'the big E' or 'ENC'

Hell, most of these arm chair quarter backs can't even grasp the idea that on systems were encryption isn't an after though and there is a KMF and subscribers are ordered with both multi key encryption and OTAR, that only a SINGLE key needs to be loaded at the time of initial subscriber programming. And then the magic OTAR button is pushed and the radio received the currently, in use encryption keys, securely, from the KMF over the air. There never needs to be a unencrypted transmission from a radio while also having the ability to interop

 

[MTS2000des]

While I agree P25 and Motorola are also trigger words, nothing gets the arm chair interop experts/arm chair IC going faster than the word encryption. Hell most of them can't even write the damn word. It's always 'the big E' or 'ENC'

Of course the same basement dwelling folks also claim that encryption reduces range, costs a fortune, and is the reason why any incident where encrypted comms are utilized is the cause of everything that goes wrong including hail and tornadoes falling out of the sky.

 

[mmckenna]

Hell most of them can't even write the damn word. It's always 'the big E' or 'ENC'

Some are much smarter than system admins. They lookied at a youtubes video, and searched on the phrase "inkriptsion is badd!!!" and are now experts that have "dun mys resurch"….

 

[12dbsinad]

Well apparently it doesn't matter about Motorola, Baofeng, encryption, trunking, simplex, hams, GMRS, illegal linked systems, command, polices, NIMS classes, Penis sizes, or the like...

The fact of the matter is some loner geek climbed up a roof 400' away from a high profile former president and candidate, carried a AR-15, encountered law enforcement, and still pooped off 8 rounds killing a poor former Chief and husband and injuring others in whats supposed to be a extremely high level security event is F'ing scary and nobody knows WTF went wrong or held accountable still, today. Scary.

 

[buddrousa]

It is known what and how and even why it happened the problem is the refusal to answer questions. It is shown the system is what did not fail it was the upper management of 1 agency that failed and a new informant of that same agency about another event that was hidden from the media leads back to the same upper management. Not going any further due to it getting into Politics buy it is in the news for all to see.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Where to start?

How about having hundreds, or potentially, thousands of radios on a single voice path.

Or having different functions, thay don't necessarily have to talk to each other, on the same voice path.

A single, solitary voice path, for an event of that scale is in itself asking for problems. Never mind access contention. With that many radios.

Ok my creds, if it matters: DHS/FEMA ICS100, ICS200, ICS700, ICS800

I guess I am a basement dweller (but no basements here in CFL) that someone here is referring to because I had the audacity to state, quite accurately that the Butler fiasco could have been avoided using VHF FM simplex.

There were not hundreds or thousands of radios. There were a couple dozen USSS and County PD SWAT operating on dissimilar systems and using text messaging to convey early, critical information about the shooter, that was missed, ignored, not conveyed for some 19 minutes. Had the first County PD unit that spotted the shooter sneaking around with a range finder, picked up a radio, any radio, any technology that was common with USSS by some means, a shared radio, a ICS tent, etc,. The message would have been conveyed instantly (OK slight delay in P25) and the shooter would have been intercepted or shot dead before he could have sighted his target. You don't need or want dozens of talk groups for the surveillance of the arena. If someone is working logistical stuff, positioning motorcade etc,. not carrying a long rifle, maybe they can be on channel 2.

I have been in this game since 1976, 17-plus years with the /\/\ being taught that their way is the only way (Amen), and the remainder asking customers what they NEED (often that is different than what they think they want, were promised by vendors) and translating to an SOW/RFP. I will confess to being a Luddite of sorts, because there is pain to be endured by being an early adopter of technology, and likewise a pain being a late adopter as accelerated planned obsolescence is what keeps the vendors playing golf.

I have also gotten a fairly good idea how decisions are made at the upper levels. Throwing money at a problem is easy (Its taxpayer money dummy), and how better to spend money and reward vendors (the elite) than by "buying the latest state of the art". I am sure discussions are going on right now on how to integrate cellular text messaging into P25 voice or some such fancy Rube Goldberg.

The problem was lack of an operational Incident Command and/or sharing of radios. Had that first responder been heard on radio by USSS, the outcome would have been better. But no, it will be a technological band aid.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

The greatest issue is the lack of a truly Unified Command at the event. You know, the fact everyone was using phones to convey data is not really that big of deal especially today as more and more agencies are adopting the Team Awareness Kit (even the APX-NEXT can natively run ATAK though you have to be a federal customer to get that). The lack of unified command resulted in the lack of situational awareness by all parties which disrupted the flow of information and delayed decision making. Doesn't matter if it if's radio, phone, etc.

 

[MTS2000des]

That's just it: there is no "technological" solution to a lack of unified command. My jab was not at you @RFI-EMI-GUY , it was to the usual trolls who go to hacker conferences and brag about stalking government radio systems, who know very little to anything public safety, never having worked in it (or any real job for that matter, because Mom and Dad fund their lifestyle).

Then the usual gang of "trunking sucks" and "encryption just means everyone is corrupt" start flatulating their nonsense and they drown out reality.

 

[AM909]

Of course the same basement dwelling folks also claim that encryption reduces range, costs a fortune, and is the reason why any incident where encrypted comms are utilized is the cause of everything that goes wrong including hail and tornadoes falling out of the sky.

[Emphasis mine] To be fair, it is expensive. One P25 phase 2 mobile price goes up 75% when you add FIPS140-2 hardware and OTAR. It went up 135% to begin with, getting to P25 phase 2 from analog. Not commenting on value, just the cost.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The greatest issue is the lack of a truly Unified Command at the event. You know, the fact everyone was using phones to convey data is not really that big of deal especially today as more and more agencies are adopting the Team Awareness Kit (even the APX-NEXT can natively run ATAK though you have to be a federal customer to get that). The lack of unified command resulted in the lack of situational awareness by all parties which disrupted the flow of information and delayed decision making. Doesn't matter if it if's radio, phone, etc.

I had to look ATAK up because, though I had heard of it, did not know it was a .gov product. But again, getting back to Butler shooting, everyone, Local County and USSS would have to have the application and be paying attention. It takes longer to open an APP then it does to shout on a radio channel "HEY WE HAVE A PROBLEM, EYES NORTH!" That is after all what makes land mobile radio unique.

Wow a civilian version for Metro State!

 

[mmckenna]

[Emphasis mine] To be fair, it is expensive. One P25 phase 2 mobile price goes up 75% when you add FIPS140-2 hardware and OTAR. It went up 135% to begin with, getting to P25 phase 2 from analog. Not commenting on value, just the cost.

Not sure who you are buying radios from, but I've never paid a 75% markup on a radio with those features.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Not sure who you are buying radios from, but I've never paid a 75% markup on a radio with those features.

That could easily be the spread between a very low end neutered P25 PII radio model (no encryption capability) and one hogged whored out (can we say that about factory fresh?) with all the gizmo's. And then you have the expense of Key Management Facility.

 

[mmckenna]

That could easily be the spread between a very low end neutered P25 PII radio model (no encryption capability) and one hogged whored out (can we say that about factory fresh?) with all the gizmo's. And then you have the expense of Key Management Facility.

Yeah, that's possible, but an appropriate grade LMR radio (like what would be used in this application) would not be marked up that amount by adding encryption. I recently put about 40 Harris XL-200's in service with the full encryption suite, and it didn't add much to the cost.

This is one of the things that has been mentioned above, this oft repeated claim that encryption adds huge costs to radios. It doesn't.

KMF's and all the back end stuff, yes, it's expensive, but when spread across hundreds, if not thousands, of subscribers, it's not a the huge burden that people claim it to be.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Yeah, that's possible, but an appropriate grade LMR radio (like what would be used in this application) would not be marked up that amount by adding encryption. I recently put about 40 Harris XL-200's in service with the full encryption suite, and it didn't add much to the cost.

I wonder why /\/\ didn't win the deal! ;:^{

This is one of the things that has been mentioned above, this oft repeated claim that encryption adds huge costs to radios. It doesn't.

KMF's and all the back end stuff, yes, it's expensive, but when spread across hundreds, if not thousands, of subscribers, it's not a the huge burden that people claim it to be.

Pity the fool/taxpayer...

 

[mmckenna]

I wonder why /\/\ didn't win the deal! ;:^{

They had their chance.

Pity the fool/taxpayer...

Maybe, but encryption has its place.