Where's the ARRL's vaunted EMCOMM?

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BinaryMode

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This seems ridiculous, but I also remember a person that had a child in anaphylactic shock, she called 911 and in the course of the call the dispatcher told her that since the childs epi-pen was expired, to not use it. The child died. Physicians said it was stupid advice.

At some point (not necessarily with the New Mexico fires), it's time to just use what you have available.


That's terribly sad, man. I don't want to go off topic but I bet a lawsuit was involved.

Edit-

I guess the moral of the story here is that sometimes (more often than not if you ask me) common sense prevails.
 

KV4BL

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Well let's see. One would think that the billions of dollars of Homeland Security money spent after 9/11 got public safety communications systems up to speed. Surely where a guy with $2000 worth of gear definitely isn't needed.
Aren't the FF/LEO/EMT guys packing $8000 handhelds on million dollar trunked sites? That's a lot more radio money than I'll ever see for ham stuff.

Good to be reminded about multi-billion dollar satellite technology and cellular phone company capabilities being better than anything regular people can afford.

I don't think the ARRL got any billion dollar grants. LOL..
One thing that seems to be forgotten with regard to these multi-billion dollar whizbang systems that GovCo buys with our money, then bends Heaven and Earth to prevent our listening to, is the level of complexity these systems have at all levels, whether the networks or the end-user ht, mobile, or base. Yes, these systems, on the average day, can do everything but make your breakfast and do your laundry, and for all I know, those things may be in the planning stages as I type this.

As complexity increases, so do opportunities for hiccups, glitches, and system or radio failure. Here in South Carolina, hiccups that send the Palmetto 800 system into Site-Trunking are far from unheard of. Whether for a few minutes or hours, this type disruption causes a minor panic with local agencies (city, county) seeming to adapt well but it causing real issues in communication disruption for SCHP. There is talk of Palmetto 800 soon going to Phase II which will bring added compexity to the table in a state where most public safety has its communications eggs literally all in one basket.

Even simpler analog conventional systems can experience disruption due to unforeseen or previously un-experienced circumstances. I recall in the early 1980's, my hometown experienced a very rare drop to 0°F or lower, one night. The local police and Sheriff's Dept was having major issues with their GE MASTR II VHF mobile radios. Transmit and receive was sporadic, with lots of cutting in and out and distortion on transmit. It was so cold that the transceivers in the car trunks were malfunctioning badly. Both departments adapted somewhat by turning off their mobile radios and using the ht's, which were warmed by the heater up front in the cars as well as the body of the officer wearing it. This worked better for the city officers who were well within range of their repeater, but a bit less well for the county deputies, who had a much larger area to cover with more dead spots for ht's.

My point in the above anecdote is that unexpected circumstances and failures can and will occur. If the multi-billion dollar whizbang system works through the next major hurricane or major earthquake, good! If something unforeseen or foreseen but not entirely measurable until it occurs (military induced EMP, for instance), don't write off the old flatulent whose still-working TS-440S, wrapped in foil is kept in a metal Faraday Cage in his basement, or maybe even a TS-817 with 5W output. Any comms will be better than no comms and sometimes, simple really does work when all else fails. In a post military-induced EMP world, I would imagine an incredibly low noise floor across all bands from DC to daylight.

Something to ponder.
 

MTS2000des

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My point in the above anecdote is that unexpected circumstances and failures can and will occur. If the multi-billion dollar whizbang system works through the next major hurricane or major earthquake, good! If something unforeseen or foreseen but not entirely measurable until it occurs (military induced EMP, for instance), don't write off the old flatulent whose still-working TS-440S, wrapped in foil is kept in a metal Faraday Cage in his basement, or maybe even a TS-817 with 5W output. Any comms will be better than no comms and sometimes, simple really does work when all else fails. In a post military-induced EMP world, I would imagine an incredibly low noise floor across all bands from DC to daylight.

Something to ponder.
Anything can fail. It's the skill set of the caretaker/operator that saves the day. Hurricane Ian: three teams of able bodied COM-T/COM-Ls with resources descended upon the area, restored a trunked RF subsite, and worked with AT&T and Verizon to get emergency cellular/WAN up.

The whole mantra about old farts with HF rigs is cute, and it sure brings back memories of the books they used to sell in QST like "DX Brings Danger"...but in reality, how many hams with that old TS-440 also are able to survive without power, without their medications, without their O2. I am not being funny. I am being serious. The average age of the ham folks are upwards of 60+. Not that there aren't healthy retired folks, but one has to be real.

The hard work of shucking cables, putting up temporary antennas, wading through water and debris is a young healthy persons' game. They aren't interested in ancient technology either, which the ARRL keeps selling as the savior to humanity.

We gotta be real here. Your Palmetto 800 system has been on the air for almost 30 years since it started as a Smartnet/Smartzone now Astro 25 system with features like DSR/GeoPrime, redundant microwave and metro E, and a full time staff of well trained systems technologists and technicians who do nothing but public safety radio. Is it complex? By ham standards- yes. But it's really not that different from any VOIP IP PBX, who's core can run on a a single blade server with resources to spare. You'd be surprised how far we've come LMR wise since those boat anchor 1976 era MASTR IIs. A modern APX radio is 100 percent software driven, can be run over by a fire truck, and still perform to spec. Ask me how I know.
 

dlwtrunked

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The hard work of shucking cables, putting up temporary antennas, wading through water and debris is a young healthy persons' game. They aren't interested in ancient technology either, which the ARRL keeps selling as the savior to humanity.

...

I have to comment on that. I am 70 and do all the above all the time--particularly when going after radiosondes (weather balloons) by hiking miles here in the hills and fields here in Virginia, trying out new antennas (did one today), and passing coax in the crawl space, attic, and up the tower. Also, most of the older hams I know are more knowledgeable that the younger and in newer technology. It may be a local thing(I suspect so) but you sure did not describe older hams in my area. I pity hams you are describing but can only come up with a very few that may meet your description and they are near 90 and are only prevented from doing those things due serious health issues (or they would still be doing them). You may have described older non-hams that I know; but the older ham I know are active people as they have been most of their lives. Your generalization is a stereotype.
 
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N4KVL

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Anything can fail. It's the skill set of the caretaker/operator that saves the day. Hurricane Ian: three teams of able bodied COM-T/COM-Ls with resources descended upon the area, restored a trunked RF subsite, and worked with AT&T and Verizon to get emergency cellular/WAN up.

The whole mantra about old farts with HF rigs is cute, and it sure brings back memories of the books they used to sell in QST like "DX Brings Danger"...but in reality, how many hams with that old TS-440 also are able to survive without power, without their medications, without their O2. I am not being funny. I am being serious. The average age of the ham folks are upwards of 60+. Not that there aren't healthy retired folks, but one has to be real.

The hard work of shucking cables, putting up temporary antennas, wading through water and debris is a young healthy persons' game. They aren't interested in ancient technology either, which the ARRL keeps selling as the savior to humanity.

We gotta be real here. Your Palmetto 800 system has been on the air for almost 30 years since it started as a Smartnet/Smartzone now Astro 25 system with features like DSR/GeoPrime, redundant microwave and metro E, and a full time staff of well trained systems technologists and technicians who do nothing but public safety radio. Is it complex? By ham standards- yes. But it's really not that different from any VOIP IP PBX, who's core can run on a a single blade server with resources to spare. You'd be surprised how far we've come LMR wise since those boat anchor 1976 era MASTR IIs. A modern APX radio is 100 percent software driven, can be run over by a fire truck, and still perform to spec. Ask me how I know.

There were four sites we tackled and faciliated getting back on the air across three counties, but who's counting? :cool: Parker did the heavy lifting, but it takes knowledgeable and experienced public safety communications professionals to communicate ACCURATE, in the field needs to get the things that need to be repaired done correctly the first time. It is 0% fun to have to explain to the Governors office why taxpayers are paying twice for the same work because you had no clue what you were looking at, and a guarantee that you will not get to deploy ever again.
 

a727469

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As a ham for many years I read the entire thread and there are some exceptionally accurate assessments. My extremely simplistic view is, as a ham in an emergency situation, if possible, go volunteer to help as a private citizen and if a radio would help, use it, if not, be useful as a volunteer in any safe way possible. Otherwise stay home and let the professionals handle.
I worked directly with the emergency management director on a team of 7 in a Connecticut town for 10 years and we never used our ham radios except for internal non-official use in any emergency and we probably could have used gmrs or some other way…and 5 of the seven were hams. We had multiple options for radios, frequencies, back up power etc to communicate and we went through hurricanes, floods, snowstorms etc and never had a communications issue.. and this was 15+ years ago. I realize there is more to an emergency than emergency management and I believe hams might be helpful “on call” but we never “needed” them and we had some very serious situations.
 

MUTNAV

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That's terribly sad, man. I don't want to go off topic but I bet a lawsuit was involved.

Edit-

I guess the moral of the story here is that sometimes (more often than not if you ask me) common sense prevails.
This is the actual article...



No lawsuit that I had heard about...

I'm guessing at this, but common sense and fear sometimes fight against each other. In Denville NJ (years ago) a kid was hit right in the bridge of the nose by a baseball and knocked flat on his back, unconscious. No one wanted to move him in case of a neck injury... so he died, from a nosebleed.


Now that I'm thinking about it more, the number of deaths when I was younger was terrible..

Thanks
Joel
 

rescuecomm

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Anything can fail. It's the skill set of the caretaker/operator that saves the day. Hurricane Ian: three teams of able bodied COM-T/COM-Ls with resources descended upon the area, restored a trunked RF subsite, and worked with AT&T and Verizon to get emergency cellular/WAN up.

The whole mantra about old farts with HF rigs is cute, and it sure brings back memories of the books they used to sell in QST like "DX Brings Danger"...but in reality, how many hams with that old TS-440 also are able to survive without power, without their medications, without their O2. I am not being funny. I am being serious. The average age of the ham folks are upwards of 60+. Not that there aren't healthy retired folks, but one has to be real.

The hard work of shucking cables, putting up temporary antennas, wading through water and debris is a young healthy persons' game. They aren't interested in ancient technology either, which the ARRL keeps selling as the savior to humanity.

We gotta be real here. Your Palmetto 800 system has been on the air for almost 30 years since it started as a Smartnet/Smartzone now Astro 25 system with features like DSR/GeoPrime, redundant microwave and metro E, and a full time staff of well trained systems technologists and technicians who do nothing but public safety radio. Is it complex? By ham standards- yes. But it's really not that different from any VOIP IP PBX, who's core can run on a a single blade server with resources to spare. You'd be surprised how far we've come LMR wise since those boat anchor 1976 era MASTR IIs. A modern APX radio is 100 percent software driven, can be run over by a fire truck, and still perform to spec. Ask me how I know.
The PAL 800 is best single sourced radio system that $400 million dollars of citizen's tax money can buy. It works and at one time, I had a county supplied XTS2500 800mhz assigned to me. I didn't carry it because the guys I worked with were on VHF.

I'm only commenting on this because it seems that all the anti-ham ranting people forget that money talks and you know how the rest of it goes. The ARRL doesn't have geosynchronous amatuer satellites because they are a grass roots organization and don't have any real money.
 

ddrad

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This whole thread is about relationships. The fact is that there are places in this country where amateurs and professionals respect each other for their skills and talents and live happily married. And there are other places where the two sides are like a miserable, wretched divorced couple who are dead set on destroying each other and everything the other side values. Which is ironic -- it's all about COMMUNICATION. :ROFLMAO: That's life....
 

MUTNAV

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I've been wondering if the sirens are mostly for Tsunami warnings, or if there was fear that people would evacuate into the fire if they were sounded.

Our local fire department in NJ had an arrangement for the number of wails of the siren meant different things, but not everyone knew it. How many of us former military people can remember the difference (off hand) between an Alarm Red and Alarm Yellow siren sound.

Thanks
Joel
This is what seems to be the case for no sirens.



Thanks
Joel
 

rescuecomm

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That's interesting. Does anyone know of a wildfire specific alarm system? Way back when, the city would sound a loud siren to alert the volunteers. They would follow the water trail to the fire. It was a small town back then.
 

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k6cpo

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It's refreshing to see a logical, well thought out discussion instead of the usual condemnation of "When all else fails..." However, some of the rhetoric I'm seeing in the media is leaving me puzzled. The complaints about the relief efforts are ludicrous. The victims and the media seem to think the FEMA Administrator can just snap her fingers and there will be 100 tons of relief supplies and 1,000 FEMA personnel on the ground the day after the fire. It just doesn't work that way and the situation is exacerbated in this case by the fact Maui is an island with only one airport capable of handling large cargo aircraft.

The other thing is the rush to judgement shown in all incidents like this, regardless of what the disaster might be. Everyone seems quick to find someone to blame, even while the fire was still burning. It never ceases to amaze me. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
 

MUTNAV

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It's refreshing to see a logical, well thought out discussion instead of the usual condemnation of "When all else fails..." However, some of the rhetoric I'm seeing in the media is leaving me puzzled. The complaints about the relief efforts are ludicrous. The victims and the media seem to think the FEMA Administrator can just snap her fingers and there will be 100 tons of relief supplies and 1,000 FEMA personnel on the ground the day after the fire. It just doesn't work that way and the situation is exacerbated in this case by the fact Maui is an island with only one airport capable of handling large cargo aircraft.

The other thing is the rush to judgement shown in all incidents like this, regardless of what the disaster might be. Everyone seems quick to find someone to blame, even while the fire was still burning. It never ceases to amaze me. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
I agree to a substantial amount, there is a reason that people are asked to keep a minimum of 3 days of food and water on hand (and I think they are actually extending the recommended time to two weeks). Things take time, and this is with a support structure and resources available.

The one minor complaint, (and I think it's just a misunderstanding, AND keeping in mind a thorough post mortem hasn't been completed), is the accusations that the water management authority cutting off water to the affected areas while the fire was burning (for religious reasons?), that might be a good case for complaining before the fire is even out. On the other hand, any information I (we?) get is from really unreliable sources (news/govt).

Thanks
Joel
 

mmckenna

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Everyone seems quick to find someone to blame, even while the fire was still burning.

That seems to be my experience.


From seeing fires like this locally, there is no amount of fire trucks, ground crews helicopters, -ham radio operators- that can prevent this from happening, there is only an opportunity to reduce the impact.
Remember, most of the suppression, relief and support is taxpayer funded, and most taxpayers get really annoyed if they actually have to pay for this sort of stuff. God forbid there be a spare fire engine. That would be "government waste…"
 

kc0kp

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The whole mantra about old farts with HF rigs is cute, and it sure brings back memories of the books they used to sell in QST like "DX Brings Danger"...but in reality, how many hams with that old TS-440 also are able to survive without power, without their medications, without their O2. I am not being funny. I am being serious. The average age of the ham folks are upwards of 60+. Not that there aren't healthy retired folks, but one has to be real.

The hard work of shucking cables, putting up temporary antennas, wading through water and debris is a young healthy persons' game. They aren't interested in ancient technology either, which the ARRL keeps selling as the savior to humanity.
I know I am the exception but I am in my 70s and a sworn full time member of the largest fire department in my state. I climb ladders, pull hose and drive big rigs. I am a Type III all hazard ComL, certified Structure Firefighter I, certified Engine Driver/Operator certified Truck Driver/Operator and past Wildland Firefighter II and ComT. I will retire when I am 79.
 

Boombox

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As a non-ham, I've read through most of this thread, and in a sense it's an example of how much ham radio has changed, in importance, since the late 20th Century.

It's no longer as much of a vital and new tech as it was even 30 years ago. Even the new digital modes are either underused (aside from FT8, which seems to be limited in emergency use) or simply not as effective for information retrieval and dispersion as a working cell system. I remember studying for a license in the early 1990s and packet radio was the massive new thing. It was supposed to be like email sent over 2 Meters, and there were even packet systems that would apparently work on HF. There was talk in the ham and SWL mags about packet radio, how it was going to change everything. How much is that even used? And how helpful would packet radio be -- if it's still being used -- in a big emergency?

It's an example of a new ham radio tech that gets surpassed even before it becomes popular. CW and SSB still seem to rule (and FM on VHF/UHF) because they're fairly simple tech, and easy to use. But a lot of talk here is about advanced stuff used by first responders -- tech that appears to surpass ham radio, even if you take away the other factors (training, etc.).

The fires in Maui were devastating. And from everything I've read, whether here, or on forums used by radio industry pros, the general consensus is that little could be done on either end (ham or broadcast radio) to lessen the impact of the fires. The fires moved too fast, and were too destructive. Not even AM and FM radio could do much, due to the constraints of automated playlists, lack of personnel at the stations, issues with power at the stations, the speed of the fires, and other factors.

I once intended to be a ham (life got in the way) and may still take that plunge, and I still monitor the HF ham bands frequently. But I don't think the hobby holds the same importance in emergencies that it did even 20 years ago. I really don't know much about ARRL's EMCOMM, but if it means they think that ham radio can be vital in massive emergencies, although I applaud their effort to remain vital to the local community, I think they're a bit mistaken.

Maybe in a TEOTWAWKI or SHTF scenario, ham radio would have a part to play. But in a lot of emergencies, especially when so few people in the general public even know what ham radio is, ham radio's emergency importance is a tough sell.
 
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