Wilmington, NC - Law enforcement agencies encrypting radio trasmissions

[LIScanner101]

That's great. Thanks for sharing.

By the way... this is a forum for scanner hobbyists. I think you ended up in the wrong place. Perhaps you should go join your scanner hating pals over on forums.officer.com - just a suggestion.

-AZ

Where did he say he hated scanners?

Why the emotional outburst?

He's making very logical and cogent posts, which is very refreshing on this site.

 

[AZScanner]

Where did he say he hated scanners?

Why the emotional outburst?

He's making very logical and cogent posts, which is very refreshing on this site.

Fine. He doesn't hate scanners. He just advocates so much encryption that they'd be pretty much $500 paperweights if he got his way. Better? :roll:

My point remains the same - why on earth would you come into a scanner forum and advocate full time encryption on all public safety which is 90% or more of what most of the folks here listen to? You can call it refreshing or whatever, but I smell a troll and I'm not taking the bait.

-AZ

 

[LIScanner101]

why on earth would you come into a scanner forum and advocate full time encryption on all public safety which is 90% or more of what most of the folks here listen to? You can call it refreshing or whatever, but I smell a troll and I'm not taking the bait.

-AZ

You crack me up. You already engaged him in discussion, yet you say you won't "take the bait". Sometimes I don't think you read what you've posted previously :lol:

Secondly, nothing he, you, I or ANYBODY ELSE on this site says or DOESN'T say is going to change whatever decision any agency has made or is considering making regarding encryption.

 

[AZScanner]

You crack me up. You already engaged him in discussion, yet you say you won't "take the bait". Sometimes I don't think you read what you've posted previously :lol:

Feel free to pick up where I left off then. I don't mind.

-AZ

 

[RayAir]

If I were at work, I would expect that my employer(s) might want/demand to listen to what I'm saying/doing while using their equipment on their time while incurring liabilities for them.

Off-the-clock, so to speak, and/or while using my own equipment (phone, radio, laptop), the answer would be no.

My business communications would probably be encrypted if I felt there was something that needed to be private and the cost justified that. But, I would retain the option to monitor my employees' communications if I felt it were necessary.

Totally agree.

If you're the employer, you encrypt your radio system to protect your information. You, as an employer, have access to what your employees are doing.

Who on here doesn't encrypt their WiFi? Should you leave it open so a potential malicious party can use it and monitor what you are doing?

 

[sfd119]

Totally agree.

If you're the employer, you encrypt your radio system to protect your information. You, as an employer, have access to what your employees are doing.

Who on here doesn't encrypt their WiFi? Should you leave it open so a potential malicious party can use it and monitor what you are doing?

Wifi and Radio Encryption are totallllly separate issues. Encrypting my Wifi doesn't affect public (or my physical) safety.

 

[ElroyJetson]

.

And besides the public has no inherent right to be able to eavesdrop on any communications. Arguing that public safety is in the public domain therefore the public has a right to eavesdrop is not a valid argument. Your senator is a public official but should you have the right to listen to his cellphone?

I'm a big advocate for privacy. I don't like the fact that non-department personell or a third party could listen in and I'm glad they can't for the most part.

Just like I was glad when cellphones went digital.

In this day and age, encryption is very important. For you personally and for public safety. Businesses need to get on board too.

Are you aware that most states have a law that makes all official communications a matter of public record? If I send an email or place a phone call to any official in my state, that communication is public record and can be reviewed by ANYBODY.

YES, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT OUR PUBLIC SERVICE EMPLOYEES ARE DOING IN THE PERFORMANCE OF THEIR DUTIES.

Historically speaking, an atmosphere of secrecy leads to abuse of the public trust.

I cite the current Obama administration as compelling proof of this happening today.

 

[MTS2000des]

Are you aware that most states have a law that makes all official communications a matter of public record?.

None of these laws stipulate that a citizen have immediate, realtime access to those communications. One has to contact the custodian of those records, submit a request, possibly pay a small fee, and wait a reasonable amount of time for the request to be fulfilled.

If I send an email or place a phone call to any official in my state, that communication is public record and can be reviewed by ANYBODY.
.

Correct, if they follow the above instructions per their state's open record's laws. None of those laws state that emails or phone calls are accessible in real time 24/7/365. Is that what you are suggesting? Because that is ridiculous and impractical to achieve.

YES, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT OUR PUBLIC SERVICE EMPLOYEES ARE DOING IN THE PERFORMANCE OF THEIR DUTIES.

We certainly do. Anything you see in public is fair game in real time. You are free to submit any and as many open records requests you would like.

Historically speaking, an atmosphere of secrecy leads to abuse of the public trust.

No argument there.

I cite the current Obama administration as compelling proof of this happening today.

As was the Bush administrations 8 years of lies. What this has to do with Wilimington, NC officials decision to encrypt radio traffic, I don't know.

 

[RayAir]

I guess I don't understand why many of you guys think you're entitled to listen to a state, county, cities,etc radio systems.

There is no law requiring them to cater to scanner listeners.

I read on other threads here, a user of this site, asking permission to program him a radio for his area once they went encrypted. His claim was he listened to the old system for 40 years and should be able to continue listening. They refused his request and now he is taking the matter to state government.

Another.... When we went to a Harris system, people on here were threatening to move out of the county because their scanner can't receive it! Are you serious!?

I guess if this is the attitude, looking at recent trends, many people are going to be disappointed by more encryption.

No longer does encryption require wiring in a board, bulky key loaders, lost keys due to dead batteries, etc.

Today, its simple and fairly cheap to implement.

Things aren't like they were in the 70's where an officers only means of communicating were his analog radio.

Now there are MDTs, in car computer communications, digital cell phones,etc, all of which can't be intercepted by all but a sophisticated adversary. Analog system users typically use the above to communicate private messages.

 

[LIScanner101]

Ray Air,


I can see both sides of the argument.

There are people on here who have some sort of “entitlement” position when it comes to scanning. They more or less feel they have earned the right to continue to be able to scan an agency by fiat, or because of previous history.

On the other hand, this IS a scanner’s enthusiast’s website, and I can kind of understand why it would appear odd for someone who ADVOCATES encryption to be here.

I guess it all comes down to one’s motivation for being on this site.

The scanner enthusiast’s motivation is to learn more about scanning and to – quite understandably – TRY to do what they can to prevent others from taking that away from them.

Your motivation is, on the other hand – well, I don’t really know what it is.

I’m not taking sides here, but it would be interesting to understand what you gain from being here.

 

[theoldcop]

I, too, consider myself a moderate on the issue having been on both sides of the radio. As a retired police officer I understand the move toward encryption and, as a hobbiest and one who has recently moved to Wilmington, I understand the frustration.
When push comes to shove NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SHOULD EVER, TO ANY DEGREE, PUT AN OFFICER'S WELL BEING IN JEOPARDY. Ever. The end. And to that degree Ray Air and I are on the same page.
That said, I am very curious to know what agenda, if any, Ray Air has. Not wanting to start a flame fest I had trouble finding the right way to approach this. LIScanner101, you nailed it.
Thank you.

 

[RayAir]

I don't have an agenda, but I do believe in privacy.

I don't "advocate" encryption to shut people out of their hobby. I advocate protecting information.

My point is, if you have the ability to encrypt, why wouldn't you?

Example- one are department used to regularly broadcast subject/dept info over the air including police officers cell phone numbers.

There detectives used to use a insecure repeater channel for all surveillance giving out operation details, locations, etc. I can only believe they "thought" their comms were secure.

Finally a few years back their detective unit moved to a secure digital system.

Behind the badge, secure communications are extremely important.

 

[theoldcop]

I appreciate your response. Thank you.
You still haven't answered the question posed by LIScanner101..."but it would be interesting to understand what you gain from being here?",
Are you employed by Harris or anyone who has a fiduciary interest in encryption?

 

[RayAir]

I appreciate your response. Thank you.
You still haven't answered the question posed by LIScanner101..."but it would be interesting to understand what you gain from being here?",
Are you employed by Harris or anyone who has a fiduciary interest in encryption?

No, I am not employed by Harris or any other radio/encryption manufacturer. Any furthermore, I do not stand to incur any financial gain by endorsing Harris OpenSky or radio encryption products.

Why am I here you ask and I'd like to answer. I am a radio enthusiast who happens to have an electronics background including knowledge of voice scrambling/encryption product R&D.

I am an engineer by day and a cop by night.

 

[SCPD]

Let me get this straight, your a radio enthusiast, background in voice scrambling / encryption product R&D, an engineer and a cop by night ? Most people I know with your credentials don't need a second job, either your full of BS, or your a glorified security guard.

 

[theoldcop]

I appreciate your position and now have a greater regard for your opinion. I only wish you had made this information public a bit sooner. It would have allowed me to absorb your comments in a different light.
Having worked with "cops by night", are you a full or part time officer? The question is important because, when the s**t hits the fan, the "part-time" cop can walk away knowing his "REAL JOB" is safe while the person who has devoted his life to police work is left holding the bag. Over thirty-three years I fought the bad guys. I've had more broken bones than I can count. I've had guns pointed at me, I've had my family threatened and, thank God, never had to pull the bang switch. The last "night cop" I was forced to work with, due to budget constraints, was an automobile mechanic who was earning twice what I made, but would never have considered putting his entire future on the line due to an attorney who had his eye on a Fed. Chapter 1983 suit.
My point is, if you're a cop, you're a cop. If you're not, you're not.
Are you a cop?

No, I am not employed by Harris or any other radio/encryption manufacturer. Any furthermore, I do not stand to incur any financial gain by endorsing Harris OpenSky or radio encryption products.

Why am I here you ask and I'd like to answer. I am a radio enthusiast who happens to have an electronics background including knowledge of voice scrambling/encryption product R&D.

I am an engineer by day and a cop by night.

 

[LIScanner101]

Ray_Air,

Let me try a different angle.

I happen to be a rabid surfcaster. I love driving the 4-wheel beaches of Long Island to ply my sport of fishing for striped bass.

I frequent surf fishing websites. On those sites, people with similar interests find a place to chat and share our "fish stories".

It is well within character for fellow surf casters to be inclined to support beach vehicle access.

While it is not a RIGHT (rather, a privilege) to drive these beaches, my "colleagues" all wish for continued access in the face of growing opposition from environmental groups.

Actually, many of these groups have good points and make good arguments, but I'm certainly not going to hand my truck keys to them.

Now, HERE, I feel the same way, more or less. While I do agree that officers DO deserve protection and safety, and that I really have no RIGHT to listen in on them, I similarly won't be packing up my scanner and shipping it to the nearest police precinct anytime soon - at least not of my own volition.

With all this said, while I do agree with you on your position that encryption is something that makes sense for secure comms, it seems out of place to more or less preach such gospel on a site full of scannists. You might as well join a surf fishing website and continuously discuss the merits of shutting down the very beaches that you might want to drive on.

Again, I'm unclear on your agenda. And please don't say you don't have one.

 

[theoldcop]

I want to apologize to RR members who follow this thread. I took it to a personal level and that was wrong.
I'm sorry.
John

 

[RayAir]

I appreciate your position and now have a greater regard for your opinion. I only wish you had made this information public a bit sooner. It would have allowed me to absorb your comments in a different light.
Having worked with "cops by night", are you a full or part time officer? The question is important because, when the s**t hits the fan, the "part-time" cop can walk away knowing his "REAL JOB" is safe while the person who has devoted his life to police work is left holding the bag. Over thirty-three years I fought the bad guys. I've had more broken bones than I can count. I've had guns pointed at me, I've had my family threatened and, thank God, never had to pull the bang switch. The last "night cop" I was forced to work with, due to budget constraints, was an automobile mechanic who was earning twice what I made, but would never have considered putting his entire future on the line due to an attorney who had his eye on a Fed. Chapter 1983 suit.
My point is, if you're a cop, you're a cop. If you're not, you're not.
Are you a cop?

Well you make some good points and my situation is similar to what you experienced but not completely.

My day job pays about $40K more than the starting pay for a new officer. I hardly get paid at all to be a p/t cop. I don't do it for the money. And I don't expect my performance as a cop to be any less than a regular f/t.

I'll never compromise my performance and training because I have a "real job" during the day.

I train in our gym, attend Krav Maga LE based DT classes and get my range time. I'll never slack or not continue training because want to reduce my chances of being hurt and I don't want my partner hurt be he/she a regular, p/t or reserve.

And with that attitude and a willingness to get in the sh*t, I get treated as an equal.

To be more clear. I'd rather be a full time cop, but my current life situation doesn't make it possible.

And what someone earns has no influence to me. I don't care if they are a $10 guard or a $400K doctor. As long as they have a good character, the training, and the brotherhood mentality, they would be a good partner.

 

[theoldcop]

To get back on topic:
Scanner encryption: Protecting police or skirting public records laws? | Port City Daily