2021 Arizona wildfire season

[AZDon]

Up at the lake today? Was there yesterday might head up there this afternoon.

164.825 Tonto Forest Fire Net of course is carrying traffic.

151.415 Arizona Dept of Forestry always active and worth monitoring.

past few days I monitored fire trafficon:

168.6125 NIFC intra crew

168.05 Air Tac 5

168.025 believe this was law enforcement


154.825 Tonto Fire Net 1

166.725. Possible Hot Shot traffic tac 5

170.475 which is patched to other repeaters
Have to find notes in this

173.825

166.5

163.7125

173.625

170.4625 seldom used

171.5 Fire Net 1

170.025 Air to Ground? Bureau of Land Mgmt

172.425

154.695 State FD always active

170.45 Command Channel

406.5875 Logistics used for patch

170.6875

173.625 intra Crew

VTAC 11 151.1375 in repeat mode?

167.1375

151.415 AZ Fire

168.10 Command

171.575 Air to Ground ?

172.525 Tonto NF

163.0375 Tonto NF Bureau of Land Mgmt off of White Tanks

170.3875

168.65 Flight Follow

Hope this helps,
These frequencies have been active the last 3 days but radio traffic might be slowing down on them since fires seemed contained.

 

[WB2UZR]

Great catches, thanks everyone! I haven't looked yet, but are these freqs in the database here?

 

[AZDon]

Great catches, thanks everyone! I haven't looked yet, but are these freqs in the database here?

More than likely they are, not sure. The patch is def not listed, as you know, those come and go based on situational needs.

 

[WB2UZR]

Thanks. now I have to find them. I don't see them in my favorites list in the scanner, so I have to go hunt for them in the database.

 

[KB7MIB]

Thanks. now I have to find them. I don't see them in my favorites list in the scanner, so I have to go hunt for them in the database.

This might help.

Arizona Natural Resource Agencies

Arizona Natural Resource Agencies (Arizona) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference for Arizona Natural Resource Agencies (Arizona)

www.radioreference.com

US Government (Arizona)

Arizona Federal (Arizona) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference for Arizona Federal (Arizona)

www.radioreference.com

US Government (Nationwide)

RR Database Home

The most complete database of radio communications data

www.radioreference.com

John
Peoria

 

[es93546]

Up at the lake today? Was there yesterday might head up there this afternoon.

164.825 Tonto Forest Fire Net of course is carrying traffic.

151.415 Arizona Dept of Forestry always active and worth monitoring.

past few days I monitored fire trafficon:

168.6125 NIFC intra crew

168.05 Air Tac 5

168.025 believe this was law enforcement


154.825 Tonto Fire Net 1

166.725. Possible Hot Shot traffic tac 5

170.475 which is patched to other repeaters
Have to find notes in this

173.825

166.5

163.7125

173.625

170.4625 seldom used

171.5 Fire Net 1

170.025 Air to Ground? Bureau of Land Mgmt

172.425

154.695 State FD always active

170.45 Command Channel

406.5875 Logistics used for patch

170.6875

173.625 intra Crew

VTAC 11 151.1375 in repeat mode?

167.1375

151.415 AZ Fire

168.10 Command

171.575 Air to Ground ?

172.525 Tonto NF

163.0375 Tonto NF Bureau of Land Mgmt off of White Tanks

170.3875

168.65 Flight Follow

Hope this helps,
These frequencies have been active the last 3 days but radio traffic might be slowing down on them since fires seemed contained.

I'm going to do a little research, you do have a couple I see right away that are in error.

More than likely they are, not sure. The patch is def not listed, as you know, those come and go based on situational needs.

406.5875 is NIFC Logistics 2, so it isn't going anywhere. Logistics frequencies are used for links, not patches. Given vertically polarized beam antennas are used, interference between incidents is less likely than for command repeaters on VHF-High. There are now 11 logistic pairs, so having to draw from the unused federal frequencies in the area, which is often done for VHF-High frequencies, is not common.

 

[es93546]

Thanks. now I have to find them. I don't see them in my favorites list in the scanner, so I have to go hunt for them in the database.

Hang on, it might be a couple of days before I can clarify each of these frequencies. There are some things mislabeled on his post, some that he has no infor for that I do and I'm still trying to figure out about 5 from his list. It might be a day or two until I have time to research this. I don't think the majority need a database submission because they should already be in it.

 

[AZDon]

I'm going to do a little research, you do have a couple I see right away that are in error.




406.5875 is NIFC Logistics 2, so it isn't going anywhere. Logistics frequencies are used for links, not patches. Given vertically polarized beam antennas are used, interference between incidents is less likely than for command repeaters on VHF-High. There are now 11 logistic pairs, so having to draw from the unused federal frequencies in the area, which is often done for VHF-High frequencies, is not common.

Hard telling if a transmitter is a link or a patch just by receiving it on a radio. Where I came from we had a ton of UHF and VHF portable and fixed place repeaters. All I made note of is the fact I could hear four multicasted transmitters. I’ve been around UHF and VHF links. Gotcha, in this application the transmitted audio on UHF are links not patches.

 

[es93546]

Hard telling if a transmitter is a link or a patch just by receiving it on a radio. Where I came from we had a ton of UHF and VHF portable and fixed place repeaters. All I made note of is the fact I could hear four multicasted transmitters. I’ve been around UHF and VHF links. Gotcha, in this application the transmitted audio on UHF are links not patches.

A patch is something used to connect two different radio systems, two different talkgroups, a radio to a phone. It is the joining of two disparate systems into a way each system can communicate. This is a dedicated logistics repeater pair we are talking about here, NIFC Logistics 2. These are used for links. There are other link frequencies in the NIFC system, 8 of them, used to link the Incident Command Post with VHF AM transceivers placed on mountain tops that can receive all the simplex aviation traffic and allow those at the ICP to communicate directly with aircraft. They don't tie up the command repeater system by doing this, while maintaining communications with aircraft over the incident. The NIFC instruction manual for the National Incident Radio Support Cache (NIRSC) (the proper name for what most call the "NIFC system") show ways that the NIFC logistics system is used and the discussion uses the term link and as I recall does not use the word patch.

A system of four VHF High command repeaters will use three UHF pairs for one of the repeaters to communicate with three of the four repeaters. Another UHF pair will be used to link that "control repeater" back to the ICP. It's pretty tough to decipher the use of any one UHF frequency, all of which are labeled by NIFC as the "logistics system," since its all multicast to and from the multiple command repeaters. When I first started with the USFS one command repeater usually covered an entire fire, but as fire size has increased the NIFC system had to grow and adapt. All of these components of the teh NIFC system come packed up in large fiberglass containers, all the same size. The color of the fiberglass indicates if what is inside is a command repeater, a logistics repeater, handheld radios, aviation base radios and aviation link radios. I've worked some fires from initial attack (one of the first units dispatched), lose the fire and then watch it get taken over by a Type 1 or 2 team and our dinky little camp with a couple of engines and a handcrew grow into a camp of 3,000 people. The NIFC system kits spend part of the winter at NIFC being carefully inspected and repaired. Then, as soon as this is completed a portion of those fiberglass cases are shipped to fire caches around the country enabling them to show up fairly quickly when ordered.

I forgot to mention that the NIRSC users manual or whatever it is called is available online at the NIFC website.

 

[AZDon]

A patch is something used to connect two different radio systems, two different talkgroups, a radio to a phone. It is the joining of two disparate systems into a way each system can communicate. This is a dedicated logistics repeater pair we are talking about here, NIFC Logistics 2. These are used for links. There are other link frequencies in the NIFC system, 8 of them, used to link the Incident Command Post with VHF AM transceivers placed on mountain tops that can receive all the simplex aviation traffic and allow those at the ICP to communicate directly with aircraft. They don't tie up the command repeater system by doing this, while maintaining communications with aircraft over the incident. The NIFC instruction manual for the National Incident Radio Support Cache (NIRSC) (the proper name for what most call the "NIFC system") show ways that the NIFC logistics system is used and the discussion uses the term link and as I recall does not use the word patch.

A system of four VHF High command repeaters will use three UHF pairs for one of the repeaters to communicate with three of the four repeaters. Another UHF pair will be used to link that "control repeater" back to the ICP. It's pretty tough to decipher the use of any one UHF frequency, all of which are labeled by NIFC as the "logistics system," since its all multicast to and from the multiple command repeaters. When I first started with the USFS one command repeater usually covered an entire fire, but as fire size has increased the NIFC system had to grow and adapt. All of these components of the teh NIFC system come packed up in large fiberglass containers, all the same size. The color of the fiberglass indicates if what is inside is a command repeater, a logistics repeater, handheld radios, aviation base radios and aviation link radios. I've worked some fires from initial attack (one of the first units dispatched), lose the fire and then watch it get taken over by a Type 1 or 2 team and our dinky little camp with a couple of engines and a handcrew grow into a camp of 3,000 people. The NIFC system kits spend part of the winter at NIFC being carefully inspected and repaired. Then, as soon as this is completed a portion of those fiberglass cases are shipped to fire caches around the country enabling them to show up fairly quickly when ordered.

I forgot to mention that the NIRSC users manual or whatever it is called is available online at the NIFC website.

I can appreciate hearing from someone that knows what they are talking about. The agency I was employed by once used VHF links to connect UHF receivers to Motorola Digitacs and or Astro-Tacs. To conserve spectrum we terminated the use of the VHF links and relied on leased phone lines or microwave. Obviously those resources aren’t available where the wild land fires exist. Am impressed the way you meet your agency needs.

We are well entrenched throughout the country and territories in the UHF band. Usually don’t have to deal with the rugged terrain involved with forest fires. Our wide area rapid deployment kits consisted of portable ACU units, which used portable radios and cell phones to daisy chain portable repeaters. It’s slick and get the job done. Obviously that configuration wouldn’t work to combat forest fires.
Can only imagine how much equipment of yours gets destroyed by fire. Cost of doing business. Regardless, thanks for the brief.

 

[es93546]

I can appreciate hearing from someone that knows what they are talking about. The agency I was employed by once used VHF links to connect UHF receivers to Motorola Digitacs and or Astro-Tacs. To conserve spectrum we terminated the use of the VHF links and relied on leased phone lines or microwave. Obviously those resources aren’t available where the wild land fires exist. Am impressed the way you meet your agency needs.

We are well entrenched throughout the country and territories in the UHF band. Usually don’t have to deal with the rugged terrain involved with forest fires. Our wide area rapid deployment kits consisted of portable ACU units, which used portable radios and cell phones to daisy chain portable repeaters. It’s slick and get the job done. Obviously that configuration wouldn’t work to combat forest fires.
Can only imagine how much equipment of yours gets destroyed by fire. Cost of doing business. Regardless, thanks for the brief.

I'm retired from the U.S. Forest Service. I began my career on the Kaibab National Forest and worked out of Williams while living in Flagstaff. My wife was working on her masters in education and I had graduated from NAU in forestry. I transferred to 3 other locations in my career. I had worked full time in fire management on the Kaibab. I then went into recreation and lands (special use permits and land exchanges/purchases), but due to my fire experience I stayed involved in fire management, increased my fire qualifications until retirement. I was on some very large fires, experienced the development of the ICS and observed and asked a lot of questions. I always got to know our radio techs pretty well.

I was on two national forests that replaced the entire communications systems while I was there. I had a minor role in the planning of these systems as I had good experience using radio out in the field, had climbed a lot of peaks on the forests I worked on and had worked with electronic site permittees over the years. I had worked with state and county agencies who were trying to improve their systems. I transported a NIFC system from our supervisors office out to a fire once. That is the only time I got my hands on the system. I used NIFC systems a lot as my career fire log is 108 assignments. I used to hang out at the comm unit in my off time and asked a lot of questions there. It was a great experience, especially my 5 weeks as a crew boss of a military crew at Yellowstone in 1988. I worked some other non fire incidents where the ICS was used, on both emergencies and non emergencies. I worked closely with the NPS, the BLM and state natural resource agencies including helping them with law enforcement in the field, me backing them up and they backing me up. I worked with 4 different state governments and often worked with state DOT's as well. State maintained highways are part of lands management as they have easements and rights of ways, with some special use permits for maintenance stations. I particularly enjoyed working with the California DOT, or Caltrans as they are known. The greatest involvement with state forestry agencies I had was with Cal Fire. I worked many of their fires as a crew boss of USFS crews and in the planning section. I got to know some of their people well.

I rose fairly quickly, actually too quickly for my comfort. I reached a lower management position, similar to a lieutenant, which only involved 5% of my time in the field. I took the opportunity just past the middle of my career to take a voluntary downgrade for a field supervisor position, where I was ordered to be in the field at least 60% of the time. The position was similar to being a sergeant. Best move of my career.

Anyway, I don't know why I share all of that, other than to say I want to use that experience to help others understand what they are hearing and seeing when there is smoke on the horizon, as well as all the other functions of natural resource/land management agencies.

 

[es93546]

Up at the lake today? Was there yesterday might head up there this afternoon.

164.825 Tonto Forest Fire Net of course is carrying traffic.

151.415 Arizona Dept of Forestry always active and worth monitoring.

past few days I monitored fire trafficon:

168.6125 NIFC intra crew

168.05 Air Tac 5

168.025 believe this was law enforcement


154.825 Tonto Fire Net 1

166.725. Possible Hot Shot traffic tac 5

170.475 which is patched to other repeaters
Have to find notes in this

173.825

166.5

163.7125

173.625

170.4625 seldom used

171.5 Fire Net 1

170.025 Air to Ground? Bureau of Land Mgmt

172.425

154.695 State FD always active

170.45 Command Channel

406.5875 Logistics used for patch

170.6875

173.625 intra Crew

VTAC 11 151.1375 in repeat mode?

167.1375

151.415 AZ Fire

168.10 Command

171.575 Air to Ground ?

172.525 Tonto NF

163.0375 Tonto NF Bureau of Land Mgmt off of White Tanks

170.3875

168.65 Flight Follow

Hope this helps,
These frequencies have been active the last 3 days but radio traffic might be slowing down on them since fires seemed contained.

My comments on this. I will keep it in the same order as above.

164.8250 - This is the input for the Tonto National Forest Fire Net 1.

151.4150 - Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management (ADFFM), Repeater Channel 2, Signal Peak repeater most likely.

168.6125 - Federal government common (there are 6 total). NIFC designated as "Intracrew 3". Intracrew channels are for logistical traffic for a single crew, not for tactical traffic or comms with other crews.. There are 4 of these channels. This is often used as a tactical frequencies at NPS units.

168.0500 - NIFC Tac 1

168.0250 - U.S. Forest Service national law enforcement tac.

154.8250 - not a federal frequency. Didn't run a geographical search on the FCC license site to see who has it licensed in the area.

166.5000 - This is a simplex tactical channel as far as how the NTIA allocated the VHF-High federal band as of 1/1/19.

163.7125 - Federal common and Intracrew 1

173.6250 - I could find nothing. This frequency is in the NTIA repeater output allocation.

154.6950 - ADFFM Repeater channels 5 & 6, White Tanks repeater most likely.

170.4625 - Same as above.

171.5000 - Repeater output for Tonto NF Fire Net 1. Remember 164.8250 is the input.

170.0250 - BLM Phoenix District law enforcement net repeater output, according to a report by RR member KB7MIB, about 2-3 years ago.

172.4250 - BIA San Carlos Reservation fire management repeater channel.

154.6950 - ADFFM. Repeater channels 5 & 6. Most likely White Tanks repeater.

170.4500 - NIFC Command Net 2, repeater output.

406.5875 - NIFC Logistics 2, downlink for VHF Command repeaters. Logistic repeater pairs can also be set up as repeaters for logistics use, with the logistics section issued UHF handhelds. This is not common except in the case of multiple large fires in an area and receiving/shipping facilities being set up.

170.6875 - I could find nothing. This frequency is in the NTIA repeater output allocation.

173.6250 - Federal common and Intracrew 4.

168.1000- In the tactical frequency assignment NTIA 2019 allocation.

171.4750 - isn't assigned as a national air to ground frequency anymore, but is listed there. A number of national forests used it and 171.4750 as forest net repeater outputs. 171.4750 is not a listed national air to ground. These two frequencies can also be used by state agencies and the NTIA has special conditions for its use by them. National forests can still use them, but I don't think any do now.

172.5250 - BLM Phoenix District net repeater output.

163.0375 - BLM Phoenix District net repeater input.

170.3875 - I could find nothing. This frequency is in the NTIA repeater output allocation.

I think all the confirmed frequencies above are already in the database, except the BLM Phoenix District LE net. No one else confirmed this as far as I can remember. Where I said I could find nothing, I looked at a number of sources, some of those the latest official information with no results. If we can't confirm the type of use they are getting then we can't list them in the database. I will do some additional poking around to see if I can shed some light on these.

 

[KB7MIB]

170.0250 has a P25 NAC of 656. It can be found here:

Arizona Federal (Arizona) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference for Arizona Federal (Arizona)

www.radioreference.com

It's law enforcement in the Phoenix district, and a fire tac (no CTCSS/DCS/NAC listed) in the Gila district.

John
Peoria

 

[AZDon]

Thank you for clarifying what the frequencies I received are used for. I listed them in response to the listener who was headed up to the Lake and wanted to know what frequencies were in use. I find the application of the frequencies most interesting.

I was the Manager of Radio Communications Systems for the agency I was employed by. You probably never heard of them. I designed UHF encrypted systems throughout the country to include Hawaii, Alaska and the Caribbean. Some of the systems were multi-state while others consisted of standalone repeaters. Because I was responsible for frequency management and had a Top Secret clearance, NTIA provided me monthly with a disc of all federal frequency assignments. These of course were strictly controlled. I’ve recently requested a disc from NTIA but to no surprise it was highly redacted. The disc received does not have the ability to search agencies or frequencies. I will have to take a closer look at the disc and scroll through thousands of pages to see if it contains any frequencies that may be of interest to us.

 

[es93546]

Thank you for clarifying what the frequencies I received are used for. I listed them in response to the listener who was headed up to the Lake and wanted to know what frequencies were in use. I find the application of the frequencies most interesting.

I was the Manager of Radio Communications Systems for the agency I was employed by. You probably never heard of them. I designed UHF encrypted systems throughout the country to include Hawaii, Alaska and the Caribbean. Some of the systems were multi-state while others consisted of standalone repeaters. Because I was responsible for frequency management and had a Top Secret clearance, NTIA provided me monthly with a disc of all federal frequency assignments. These of course were strictly controlled. I’ve recently requested a disc from NTIA but to no surprise it was highly redacted. The disc received does not have the ability to search agencies or frequencies. I will have to take a closer look at the disc and scroll through thousands of pages to see if it contains any frequencies that may be of interest to us.

I was hanging around a comm unit in an ICP that was located at the high school up the street from me in 2008. The comm unit leader mentioned "the disc." The way it is stored, used and transported is very strict, all with required documentation. He let me look at it sitting in a safe that was secured to his vehicle. It was also hidden. I would tell you how it was hidden, but then I would have to kill you. HA! He didn't give me a screen view of it, I would have loved to get a quick glance. One of the comm techs was a former wilderness ranger on the Inyo that I worked with and had transferred 10 years prior. He had the same passion and dedication I had so he gave me the tour and let me meet the comm unit leader. He was a very friendly sort and really liked coming to the Inyo NF. I was also working for our Community Emergency Response Team at the time and was assigned to supervise the informational phone bank. I took the phone bank day shift for a tour of the ICP when the night shift came on duty. I came back later to take the night shift on a tour. It was old home week as I knew so many people on the team and firefighters on the line. Anyway, all of that gave me an in and I got a channel plan for the NIRSC (National Incident Radio Support Cache) from him. We need another fire up here so I can get an updated one. I'm nearly certain I know all the frequencies and have written them down next to all the channel names on the channel plan in the current NIRSC User's Guide.

I guess the agency you worked for is secret squirrel in nature, similar to "the disc." 😁😉

 

[es93546]

Deleted, text posted prior to my completing it.

 

[es93546]

OK, let's try this again, I had an operator error on the last one.

I've gotten access to some frequency changes in Arizona and New Mexico used for wildland fire. These are all aviation related, both Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground (AG). I will show the changes in ALL CAPS, but show how they fit into the existing plan by using lower case. Dispatch centers without changes won't be shown at all.

Arizona

Tucson Dispatch

Air-to-Air 1 135.6250
Air-to-Air 2 126.9750
AIR-TO-AIR 3 121.0750

Phoenix Dispatch

PRIMARY AG 19 168.1250 (HAD BEEN SECONDARY)
SECONDARY AG 61 169.2875 (HAD BEEN PRIMARY)
Tertiary AG 27 168.8250 (remains unchanged)

The results are: Tucson, Phoenix and Prescott all have 3 Air-to-Air AND Air-to-Ground frequencies beginning in 2021. Flagstaff, Springerville and Williams all have 2 Air-to-Air frequencies., no changes there. All dispatch centers have 3 Air-to-Ground frequencies except for Williams, which has 2. This isn't different from the 2020 Air-to-Ground frequency list, only the order of primary and secondary was changed for Phoenix in 2021. I hope that is understandable. I don't want to type out the entire tables. I think this reflects the workload, with more potential to run out of initial attack frequencies in the southern portion of the state.

I will submit these to the database as my source is very reliable.

There are more in New Mexico, but I will post thread there on that state's page.

 

[AZDon]

OK, let's try this again, I had an operator error on the last one.

I've gotten access to some frequency changes in Arizona and New Mexico used for wildland fire. These are all aviation related, both Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground (AG). I will show the changes in ALL CAPS, but show how they fit into the existing plan by using lower case. Dispatch centers without changes won't be shown at all.

Arizona

Tucson Dispatch

Air-to-Air 1 135.6250
Air-to-Air 2 126.9750
AIR-TO-AIR 3 121.0750

Phoenix Dispatch

PRIMARY AG 19 168.1250 (HAD BEEN SECONDARY)
SECONDARY AG 61 169.2875 (HAD BEEN PRIMARY)
Tertiary AG 27 168.8250 (remains unchanged)

The results are: Tucson, Phoenix and Prescott all have 3 Air-to-Air AND Air-to-Ground frequencies beginning in 2021. Flagstaff, Springerville and Williams all have 2 Air-to-Air frequencies., no changes there. All dispatch centers have 3 Air-to-Ground frequencies except for Williams, which has 2. This isn't different from the 2020 Air-to-Ground frequency list, only the order of primary and secondary was changed for Phoenix in 2021. I hope that is understandable. I don't want to type out the entire tables. I think this reflects the workload, with more potential to run out of initial attack frequencies in the southern portion of the state.

I will submit these to the database as my source is very reliable.

There are more in New Mexico, but I will post thread there on that state's page.

Message received, thank you.
Don

 

[es93546]

OK, let's try this again, I had an operator error on the last one.

I've gotten access to some frequency changes in Arizona and New Mexico used for wildland fire. These are all aviation related, both Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground (AG). I will show the changes in ALL CAPS, but show how they fit into the existing plan by using lower case. Dispatch centers without changes won't be shown at all.

Arizona

Tucson Dispatch

Air-to-Air 1 135.6250
Air-to-Air 2 126.9750
AIR-TO-AIR 3 121.0750

Phoenix Dispatch

PRIMARY AG 19 168.1250 (HAD BEEN SECONDARY)
SECONDARY AG 61 169.2875 (HAD BEEN PRIMARY)
Tertiary AG 27 168.8250 (remains unchanged)

The results are: Tucson, Phoenix and Prescott all have 3 Air-to-Air AND Air-to-Ground frequencies beginning in 2021. Flagstaff, Springerville and Williams all have 2 Air-to-Air frequencies., no changes there. All dispatch centers have 3 Air-to-Ground frequencies except for Williams, which has 2. This isn't different from the 2020 Air-to-Ground frequency list, only the order of primary and secondary was changed for Phoenix in 2021. I hope that is understandable. I don't want to type out the entire tables. I think this reflects the workload, with more potential to run out of initial attack frequencies in the southern portion of the state.

I will submit these to the database as my source is very reliable.

There are more in New Mexico, but I will post thread there on that state's page.

This post may have caused some confusion. The database shows the current order of the air to ground frequencies for the Phoenix Dispatch Center. I based my post on a comparison of the 2020 and 2021 Southwest GACC Comms Guide without realizing the DB showed it correctly already. I submitted some changes for the Tucson Dispatch Center as well. They were relative to the air to air and air to ground frequencies for that center also.

 

[zerg901]

1/7753 NOTAM Details

Superior AZ - TFR - wildfire - 119.475 AM (amplitude modulation)

searching this forum for 119.475 yields no hits