Clear out the storage buildings of outdated NXDN gear and put that on the air...
Amateur P25 popularity…
- Thread starter BMDaug
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Very true. I've mentioned before that I have several P25 capable repeaters I've built but very few ever use them.
In reality an XTS3000, Astro Saber or even XTS2500 is dirt cheap now but I think many just don't care to deal with the small learning curve that it entails.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I'm not sure I'd buy an XTS at this point without running it through the service monitor. Some of those are old enough to vote.
I've got a TK-5210 at work, just need to find the local P25 hammy repeater and program it up. Then I can talk to myself in glorious digital!
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
Personally, for P25 conventional operation I think it is easier to program than most other digital operation modes, especially DMR. As all you really need to change from programming an analog radio is swap the PL tone for a NAC. Of course you can get more detailed using talkgroups but you don't have to actually define a talkgroup.
As far as popularity goes, I think a big factor is the price related to multi-band radios, even on the used market. Many hams want VHF and UHF in a single radio. It's just not as common and hams don't seem to want to deal with older (but completely viable) multi-deck setups that use a common head to provide multi-band capability. For many, the programming software may seem extremely daunting or tracking down that "old DOS" machine when in reality pretty much any P25 radio can be programmed with a 32 bit version of Windows 10 but even still today much of that can be quite low in cost as I just put together a Windows 7 MiniITX build that dual boots DOS 7.1 as an ultimate COM port era programming computer for about $150.
As far as availability goes, there is certainly a plenty of equipment if you know where to find it and if you have the equipment to program and align these radios, you can very easily keep get used radios back into spec and keep them operational in their second, or maybe third lives.
Some of the benefits of P25 is the fact it is a fairly well put together standard. The DMR has developed in such a way (both commercially and in amateur market) that really makes the standard feel incomplete and even things which should be standardized across multiple vendors aren't always standardized. For example, I can call-alert/page my Kenwood TK-5210's from my XTS5000s and it works fine (which is also great as the two radios don't support the same analog signalling formats). DMR it's sometimes hit and miss (texting across vendors can be an issue). On the infrastructure side, DMR has the AIS gateway but that's the only real standard for interconnecting DMR systems (it's not on the repeater to repeater basis). P25 on the other hand has the Inter Sub System Interface for interconnecting systems, Console Sub System Interface for interfacing consoles, and the Digital Fixed Station Interface (which not all vendors use but most equipment can be gotten to speak DFSI). So there's a lot more opportunity for some cobbled together systems which is right up the amateur radio community's alley. P25 is here to stay for the foreseeable future.
As far as popularity goes, I think a big factor is the price related to multi-band radios, even on the used market. Many hams want VHF and UHF in a single radio. It's just not as common and hams don't seem to want to deal with older (but completely viable) multi-deck setups that use a common head to provide multi-band capability. For many, the programming software may seem extremely daunting or tracking down that "old DOS" machine when in reality pretty much any P25 radio can be programmed with a 32 bit version of Windows 10 but even still today much of that can be quite low in cost as I just put together a Windows 7 MiniITX build that dual boots DOS 7.1 as an ultimate COM port era programming computer for about $150.
As far as availability goes, there is certainly a plenty of equipment if you know where to find it and if you have the equipment to program and align these radios, you can very easily keep get used radios back into spec and keep them operational in their second, or maybe third lives.
Some of the benefits of P25 is the fact it is a fairly well put together standard. The DMR has developed in such a way (both commercially and in amateur market) that really makes the standard feel incomplete and even things which should be standardized across multiple vendors aren't always standardized. For example, I can call-alert/page my Kenwood TK-5210's from my XTS5000s and it works fine (which is also great as the two radios don't support the same analog signalling formats). DMR it's sometimes hit and miss (texting across vendors can be an issue). On the infrastructure side, DMR has the AIS gateway but that's the only real standard for interconnecting DMR systems (it's not on the repeater to repeater basis). P25 on the other hand has the Inter Sub System Interface for interconnecting systems, Console Sub System Interface for interfacing consoles, and the Digital Fixed Station Interface (which not all vendors use but most equipment can be gotten to speak DFSI). So there's a lot more opportunity for some cobbled together systems which is right up the amateur radio community's alley. P25 is here to stay for the foreseeable future.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Hard for some hams to run multideck setups when they only have one cigarette lighter socket. It gets to be a pain when you have to unplug the VHF deck to plug the UHF deck in. And then whattya do about the cell phone charger?
Why? Why should amateur radio agree on a digital voice standard? As long as the basis and purpose of amateur radio, as codified in Part 97, includes statements like "advancement of the radio art" and "advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art", then why should amateur radio operators limit themselves to any particular mode of communications?
That said, I think the proliferation of DV modes has done nothing but segregate the amateur radio community. "Oh, you only have a [DV mode A] radio? Well, you can't talk to our group because we are on [DV mode B]." How does that help amateur radio grow? If we magically agreed on P25, what does that do to the thousands of hams who have purchased D-STAR, DMR, NXDN, or System Fusion radios? Agreeing on P25 as a standard obsoletes their investment. After seeing their investment made obsolete, how many of them will throw up their hands and never buy a P25 radio?
Before you convince me that I need to buy into any DV mode, especially one where the only affordable equipment is used public safety gear, then you need to explain to me why we need it.
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I’m a P25 and DMR guy but it is entirely possible to cross mode now if you’re using a MMDVM or Openspot. Also there is now common talk groups for almost any modes where P25, DMR, and Fusion call all intermingle.
Some DMR statewide TG will also work with P25. Unfortunately, my state isn’t among them. Many new flavors other than BrandMeister these days. It’s changed a lot in the past 2 years.
www.pistar.uk
www.pistar.uk
Some DMR statewide TG will also work with P25. Unfortunately, my state isn’t among them. Many new flavors other than BrandMeister these days. It’s changed a lot in the past 2 years.
P25 Reflector List - pistar.uk
www.pistar.uk
BrandMeister Talkgroup List - pistar.uk
www.pistar.uk
You mean like CW and VOICE?!?!?!?!?....while some old head say's, CW is THEEE language of amateur radio!!!!
Were you able talk around the world with an HT 40 years ago?!?!?!?!?!??
YUP. I would hate to get rid of my XPR7550 and XPR5550!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT'S RIGHT. VoIP and digital has ENHANCED amateur radio quite nicely, would you say?!?!? All this talk of P25, I BETTER update my APX8000 firmware.
Indeed! We use it for fun and I use linked P25 and Yaesu Fusion with two different groups. We use it for local chat as well as linking repeaters/nodes as some have moved to other states. Yaesu has the advantage there with the low cost and easy linking. P25 will keep on going due to the commercial quality of the gear, especially the repeater. Yaesu gear is amateur with the hardware quality to match. I can not say we “need” it (DV mode), but it makes it very convenient for buddies to stay in touch as we use it with our handhelds, mobile, at home and wherever…thank you Internet.
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Now if anyone could learn to tweak those YSF repeaters to work with P25 without the use of a MMDVM would be excellent. I happen to have one floating around my house.Indeed! We use it for fun and I use linked P25 and Yaesu Fusion with two different groups. We use it for local chat as well as linking repeaters/nodes as some have moved to other states. Yaesu has the advantage there with the low cost and easy linking. P25 will keep on going due to the commercial quality of the gear, especially the repeater. Yaesu gear is amateur with the hardware quality to match. I can not say we “need” it (DV mode), but it makes it very convenient for buddies to stay in touch as we use it with our handhelds, mobile, at home and wherever…thank you Internet.
OK, I derailed this thread to "why do we need digital voice at all" instead of letting the thread focus on P25 as a viable amateur radio DV mode. My mistake.
So, assuming that there's a place in amateur radio for digital voice, why is P25 better than the other modes? What advantages does P25 have over the other DV modes?
Are P25 repeaters available or easily modifiable for the most popular above 30 MHz bands--2m and 70cm? Can P25 repeaters be easily linked? Are there networks of P25 repeaters that can be accessed using hot spots?
Are P25 radios available or easily modifiable for the most popular above-30-MHz bands--2m and 70cm? Will an amateur radio operators be able to call Ham Radio Outlet or DX Engineering and buy a P25 radio? OK, I already know the answer to that one, but if you are going to promote amateur radio P25, then you will have to deal with the "where do I get equipment and how do I program it" questions. And, if you are going to suggest that I buy used public safety equipment, then you are going to have to be able to tell me how to recognize a good radio vs. a bad radio.
Does P25 carry amateur radio callsigns as part of the data packet? Or, does P25 carry a number that then has to be looked up against a database of numbers and callsigns?
So, assuming that there's a place in amateur radio for digital voice, why is P25 better than the other modes? What advantages does P25 have over the other DV modes?
Are P25 repeaters available or easily modifiable for the most popular above 30 MHz bands--2m and 70cm? Can P25 repeaters be easily linked? Are there networks of P25 repeaters that can be accessed using hot spots?
Are P25 radios available or easily modifiable for the most popular above-30-MHz bands--2m and 70cm? Will an amateur radio operators be able to call Ham Radio Outlet or DX Engineering and buy a P25 radio? OK, I already know the answer to that one, but if you are going to promote amateur radio P25, then you will have to deal with the "where do I get equipment and how do I program it" questions. And, if you are going to suggest that I buy used public safety equipment, then you are going to have to be able to tell me how to recognize a good radio vs. a bad radio.
Does P25 carry amateur radio callsigns as part of the data packet? Or, does P25 carry a number that then has to be looked up against a database of numbers and callsigns?
STILL a viable question. Answer, Because we as hams...CAN!!!!!
It's NOT.
NONE.
OH YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you have one in Indy that's REAL NICE (442.450)....Lafayette too.
LIKE DMR?!?!?!!?!?!?! Yup. A DMR number will suffice as your P25 number as well. But it's only needed if you're on a networked/linked repeater.
MOTOROLA ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry for being BIASED hi hi
surfacemount
Member
I think several have touched on the important points.
P25 isn't a standard. FM analog is a standard. When you buy an analog FM transceiver, you've essentially bought all the modes. With digital, I expected it to be like where, you moved (theoretically) a jumper in the radio, now it's NXDN, move them some more, now it's fusion.
Instead, what happened was the manufacturers tried to take a page from the LMR playbook and silo their devices. They all developed competing methodologies, like VHS vs Beta, hoping to be the new de-facto standard with all the lucrative licensing fees.
They didn't realize that the spirit of ham was figuring stuff out. That's why moto has always been the darling of amateurs. There is a giant pool of hackers and tinkerers and figure outers that focus on motorola.
Had one of them the foresight to make a truly software defined radio, and made it open source, so that you could make it do any of the modes, that would be the number one selling radio platform in the world right now. Especially if it ran multiple RF decks off of one microprocessor.
Instead, you have P25, which, I understand why apco did what it did. Like with P16 (remember that?) Sometimes, you have to just say, whoa. This may not be the best idea, but we need to start somewhere, and here's where we start.
That's why I didn't dump ten grand into P25 when it first gelled. I was waiting for a firmer jello. Then it became phase I, then phase II. Some of you probably know, but I'm not going to bet against a Phase III CAI spiral increment.
So, why bother?
P25 has a lot of stuff that is going for it. But it's always going to see a ton of push-back from the amateur community, because for a group that has been on the cutting edge of technology since the Model T car era, they are notoriously resistant to change (aka 'improvement'). I know people who would have still been using spark gap, today, if they could.
It will take a pac rim manufacturer to wake up and make what's needed, at a low enough price point, before we ever see P25 as anything more than a new excuse to have public safety in our radios vs it being a viable ham route.
Yes, I am saying P25 will always be tainted. It dawned on me like 10 years ago at a RACES/ARES meeting. I wondered why there were no Amateur allocations in the 700 band plan. Who knew what the propogation actually looked like across disparate terrain? 700 megacycles (yes, I said it) and P25 will always be thought of as Public Safety, or whacker bait. Just like trunking. I wanted to see a ham trunked single site system. I thought in the 80's it made sense from a lot of angles, and now, with digital talk groups, we sort of have it, but it's not the same.
Hams always have a great grasp on tech, *especially* radio tech, here was trunking, and we didn't even do it.
Lastly, ham has been dying for a long time. This went from linear degression to logarithmic about the same time the preppers and the disneylanders found FRS. Not being a dick, but, it is what it is. The number of licensed Technicians that can speak cogently to the hobby dwindle with each 'memorize-the-test' class that comes out.
They certainly don't care about P25.
Lastly, I had hopes the scanner faction would bring about some change. Lol, they haven't, not in any appreciable way.
Lastly lastly, radio is dead. Sooner everyone agrees that 'radios' are now big computers with tiny RF components as an afterthought 'wireless' leg, better off everyone will be. At least, that's how the engineers seems to see it. Here's a test: get your RF engineer to talk about the constellations. See if they spend more time on the deviation than they do the digital error rate. Everyone focuses on the IT portion of the radio; it's rare to find someone interested in the signal path outside of the computing domain.
I think all of those have negative synergy towards how radio stuff was in the 70's and 80's when I was growing up. I think the arduino and maker type people might be the saving grace, but I'm not holding out any hope. When is the last time you saw a 'build your own P25 low power transceiver kit'?
Anyway, that's where I kind of sit on the whole concept. Plus I just really don't like talking to people on the nets anymore, and I don't believe talking across the country is as big a deal via linked nodes now that we have the internet, as I did when you had to understand weather conditions and antennas and effective radiated power because you were doing it in one jumping off point and sailing it into the wind versus, 'did I get all the boxes ticked correctly'?. For that, I have more respect for a CB dude with a splattery 1kw footwarmer than I do for most echolink nerds.
Interesting discussion though
P25 isn't a standard. FM analog is a standard. When you buy an analog FM transceiver, you've essentially bought all the modes. With digital, I expected it to be like where, you moved (theoretically) a jumper in the radio, now it's NXDN, move them some more, now it's fusion.
Instead, what happened was the manufacturers tried to take a page from the LMR playbook and silo their devices. They all developed competing methodologies, like VHS vs Beta, hoping to be the new de-facto standard with all the lucrative licensing fees.
They didn't realize that the spirit of ham was figuring stuff out. That's why moto has always been the darling of amateurs. There is a giant pool of hackers and tinkerers and figure outers that focus on motorola.
Had one of them the foresight to make a truly software defined radio, and made it open source, so that you could make it do any of the modes, that would be the number one selling radio platform in the world right now. Especially if it ran multiple RF decks off of one microprocessor.
Instead, you have P25, which, I understand why apco did what it did. Like with P16 (remember that?) Sometimes, you have to just say, whoa. This may not be the best idea, but we need to start somewhere, and here's where we start.
That's why I didn't dump ten grand into P25 when it first gelled. I was waiting for a firmer jello. Then it became phase I, then phase II. Some of you probably know, but I'm not going to bet against a Phase III CAI spiral increment.
So, why bother?
P25 has a lot of stuff that is going for it. But it's always going to see a ton of push-back from the amateur community, because for a group that has been on the cutting edge of technology since the Model T car era, they are notoriously resistant to change (aka 'improvement'). I know people who would have still been using spark gap, today, if they could.
It will take a pac rim manufacturer to wake up and make what's needed, at a low enough price point, before we ever see P25 as anything more than a new excuse to have public safety in our radios vs it being a viable ham route.
Yes, I am saying P25 will always be tainted. It dawned on me like 10 years ago at a RACES/ARES meeting. I wondered why there were no Amateur allocations in the 700 band plan. Who knew what the propogation actually looked like across disparate terrain? 700 megacycles (yes, I said it) and P25 will always be thought of as Public Safety, or whacker bait. Just like trunking. I wanted to see a ham trunked single site system. I thought in the 80's it made sense from a lot of angles, and now, with digital talk groups, we sort of have it, but it's not the same.
Hams always have a great grasp on tech, *especially* radio tech, here was trunking, and we didn't even do it.
Lastly, ham has been dying for a long time. This went from linear degression to logarithmic about the same time the preppers and the disneylanders found FRS. Not being a dick, but, it is what it is. The number of licensed Technicians that can speak cogently to the hobby dwindle with each 'memorize-the-test' class that comes out.
They certainly don't care about P25.
Lastly, I had hopes the scanner faction would bring about some change. Lol, they haven't, not in any appreciable way.
Lastly lastly, radio is dead. Sooner everyone agrees that 'radios' are now big computers with tiny RF components as an afterthought 'wireless' leg, better off everyone will be. At least, that's how the engineers seems to see it. Here's a test: get your RF engineer to talk about the constellations. See if they spend more time on the deviation than they do the digital error rate. Everyone focuses on the IT portion of the radio; it's rare to find someone interested in the signal path outside of the computing domain.
I think all of those have negative synergy towards how radio stuff was in the 70's and 80's when I was growing up. I think the arduino and maker type people might be the saving grace, but I'm not holding out any hope. When is the last time you saw a 'build your own P25 low power transceiver kit'?
Anyway, that's where I kind of sit on the whole concept. Plus I just really don't like talking to people on the nets anymore, and I don't believe talking across the country is as big a deal via linked nodes now that we have the internet, as I did when you had to understand weather conditions and antennas and effective radiated power because you were doing it in one jumping off point and sailing it into the wind versus, 'did I get all the boxes ticked correctly'?. For that, I have more respect for a CB dude with a splattery 1kw footwarmer than I do for most echolink nerds.
Interesting discussion though
I've run Motorola radios in P25, Motorola radios in DMR, higher tier Yaesu radios in Fusion and a few Icom radios in D-star and there really isn't any noticeable difference in voice quality between them. If you go to the cheapest Yaesu Fusion handheld or a Chinese DMR you will take a slight hit in voice quality.
Otherwise I really like P25 and have four dual mode analog/P25 repeaters on air now and have convinced another friend to swap out his repeater for a dual mode. Quantar repeaters can be had very cheap these days and got several UHF versions in the $600 range, a VHF for $400 and two 900 repeaters in the $350-$400 range with duplexers. All these repeaters program in the amateur bands with no modifications or changes to the software.
For P25 radios, UHF XTS2500 model III with keypad, FPP and other features are a whopping $125 these days. Got a couple of XTS2500 mod IIIs on 900 for under $100 and several mod IIs for $50. I got several Racal/Thales T25 VHF hand helds in the $50 range. UHF XTL1500 UHF radios can be had for about $200, XTL2500 UHF for $250 with VHF going for a little more, so there is plenty of reasonable priced P25 radios out there. P25 signaling is not compatible with entering callsigns, so you must ID in voice. The repeaters would ID in analog with CW and that is built into a Quantar repeater, you just program your callsign and ID time interval.
DMR has some advantages with its dual time slot basically giving a repeater two channels to play with. Programming is a little more involved but lots if not most DMR repeaters are linked to other repeaters creating a huge network. One repeater time slot can operate as a stand alone local channel while the other time slot can be pointed almost anywhere in the world. I know a few people who live on a particular DMR talk group and that is the entire extent of their ham radio activity.
Yaesu Fusion is easy as you can take a radio out of the box, program in your user ID and a frequency and be operating within minutes. The GPS location feature is also nice but to connect to another repeater system like DMR can takes over the entire repeater and anyone wishing to use it must wait for you to finish your distant connection. I also have a Yaesu DR-2X Fusion repeater but its sitting in the garage at the moment waiting for a purpose. I had it on air for a year co-channeled with a Quantar for P25 but the Yaesu in Fusion mode just didn't get much use.
D-star is similar to Fusion where you can take a radio out of the box new and be in a QSO within minutes, very easy setup and operation but still only one function at a time like local channel or distant connection. D-star also has a GPS location feature.
As for what is the best mode, I think it depends partially on what radios the audience owns or is willing to purchase and what features they want. P25 has some signaling you can make use of for amateur and it has great encryption available like AES-256, but you can't legally use that on amateur. Programming repeaters or radios for basic P25 use is very simple. Out of all the digital modes I personally like P25 mostly for the very high quality commercial repeaters and radios available surplus at cheap prices.
Otherwise I really like P25 and have four dual mode analog/P25 repeaters on air now and have convinced another friend to swap out his repeater for a dual mode. Quantar repeaters can be had very cheap these days and got several UHF versions in the $600 range, a VHF for $400 and two 900 repeaters in the $350-$400 range with duplexers. All these repeaters program in the amateur bands with no modifications or changes to the software.
For P25 radios, UHF XTS2500 model III with keypad, FPP and other features are a whopping $125 these days. Got a couple of XTS2500 mod IIIs on 900 for under $100 and several mod IIs for $50. I got several Racal/Thales T25 VHF hand helds in the $50 range. UHF XTL1500 UHF radios can be had for about $200, XTL2500 UHF for $250 with VHF going for a little more, so there is plenty of reasonable priced P25 radios out there. P25 signaling is not compatible with entering callsigns, so you must ID in voice. The repeaters would ID in analog with CW and that is built into a Quantar repeater, you just program your callsign and ID time interval.
DMR has some advantages with its dual time slot basically giving a repeater two channels to play with. Programming is a little more involved but lots if not most DMR repeaters are linked to other repeaters creating a huge network. One repeater time slot can operate as a stand alone local channel while the other time slot can be pointed almost anywhere in the world. I know a few people who live on a particular DMR talk group and that is the entire extent of their ham radio activity.
Yaesu Fusion is easy as you can take a radio out of the box, program in your user ID and a frequency and be operating within minutes. The GPS location feature is also nice but to connect to another repeater system like DMR can takes over the entire repeater and anyone wishing to use it must wait for you to finish your distant connection. I also have a Yaesu DR-2X Fusion repeater but its sitting in the garage at the moment waiting for a purpose. I had it on air for a year co-channeled with a Quantar for P25 but the Yaesu in Fusion mode just didn't get much use.
D-star is similar to Fusion where you can take a radio out of the box new and be in a QSO within minutes, very easy setup and operation but still only one function at a time like local channel or distant connection. D-star also has a GPS location feature.
As for what is the best mode, I think it depends partially on what radios the audience owns or is willing to purchase and what features they want. P25 has some signaling you can make use of for amateur and it has great encryption available like AES-256, but you can't legally use that on amateur. Programming repeaters or radios for basic P25 use is very simple. Out of all the digital modes I personally like P25 mostly for the very high quality commercial repeaters and radios available surplus at cheap prices.
KA1RBI
Member
OP25 can be configured to transmit as well as receive voice, with built-in speech codecs and mods to be fully compatible with P25(FDMA), NXDN, DMR(BS), YSF, or DSTAR. OP25 is free (GPL) and open source software.
It's available today requiring only a PC, free software, and an analog radio (or SDR). FM radios that are optimized for "9,600 packet" or "satellite" usage (i.e., radios having a direct mod input) will probably work best.
Sounds like the HackRF. With one of these you can transmit all five of the aforementioned modes at one time on separate frequencies. There is another mode, known as "fakecc" which transmits two channels at once: a P25 control channel and a (FDMA) voice channel.
The TIA might disagree with you.
Teach me, Obi Wan.
Like this: Motorola XTS2500 Model III UHF (380-470 MHz) P25 Digital Astro FPP AES-256 | eBay
Or this: Motorola XTS2500 Model III UHF (380-470 MHz) P25 Digital Astro FPP AES Dim Light | eBay
Yes, I know. Ebay is not necessarily the best place to shop for this sort of thing.
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