Amateur radio and out-of-band transmit in the news

[N4GIX]

Remind me again how hard it is to source surplus VHF radios?

Your point being what? The Chief and his firefighters didn't need communications next week. They needed coms now...

 

[ke6gcv]

"...one of the net's members, said that modified 2-meter radios had to be installed in the fire chief's vehicle for backup and at the firehouse crew's quarters."

I would think in the Newsline article, this would be the proverbial "got you" moment if anything were to come of it from dear old Uncle Charlie. I have seen manuals stating MARS/CAP mods are permitted provided you're registered/certified to operate those frequencies. None of them say they're permitted for use on public safety bands. How this was all discovered was from Mr./Mrs. Tinkerer saying, "What if I did this?"

The issue of being able to broadcast out-of-band in an emergency has been a hot button topic for... well... a very long time! (At least back when I got licensed.) And to this day, it's still an extremely hot button topic. I firmly believe it will continue to be that until ARRL and/or FCC comes out and says "Hey... You can't do that!" or "You can now do that!" Once that happens, only then (and hopefully) the topic will be put to rest.

 

[GlobalNorth]

Not sure, how hard is it?

Begging the question is both a logical fallacy and failing to answer the question.

 

[dlwtrunked]

Thank you for your service during 9/11.

Equally shared with the others that did similar. As you mentioned "flexibilty " is key. Do not go into such an operation thinking you will define what you need to do. The situation, event, and evolving needs will define that. Also, a correction, I mostly assisted the Salvation Army who supplied and staffed canteens around and in the open area in the center of the Pentagon and donated the money to them. But at times I did assist the Red Cross there. (I had just woken from a nap after a poor night of sleep due to having my CPAP recalled.) The last thing one wants to do is just standing in the way doing nothing saying you are just a radio guy. And do not be a person who really just wants to show up a short bit to see things and then wants to leave (saw some of those).

 

[GROL]

The Yaesu, Vertex-Standard, Yaesu-Musen, Standard-Horizon, Motorola thing is a long story. I won't dive into it here since it really doesn't matter since the article clearly stated:

"one of the net's members, said that modified 2-meter radios had to be installed in the fire chief's vehicle for backup and at the firehouse crew's quarters. Mark said the Yaesu radio was modified by Ron NB6X to operate on fire department frequencies"​

And this is a problem we need to be so concerned about? Let the FCC enforce the rules in this situation if they see fit, but instead of appreciating their quick response to an emergency situation, we are supposed to instead vilify them? Chinese radios that splatter the spectrum are of great concern. Some of the foul garbage I have heard on Amateur Radio repeaters in California are of great concern. One frequency on 20 meters is of great concern, not to mention some trash on 80 meters. If they did program non Part 90 radios for public safety frequencies it did violate Part 90 rules, but did it adversely affect any radio service. Certainly not! They supposedly used Yaesu radios. If it had been some of the Baofeng or Wouxon radios then there may be a problem. I have 2 of the Baofeng UV-3 radios. The spurious emissions I saw with those caused me to retire them. All they are good for is monitoring weather, marine or local fire on VHF. I won't even sell them on eBay.

 

[GROL]

Equally shared with the others that did similar. As you mentioned "flexibilty " is key. Do not go into such an operation thinking you will define what you need to do. The situation, event, and evolving needs will define that. Also, a correction, I mostly assisted the Salvation Army who supplied and staffed canteens around and in the open area in the center of the Pentagon and donated the money to them. But at times I did assist the Red Cross there. (I had just woken from a nap after a poor night of sleep due to having my CPAP recalled.) The last thing one wants to do is just standing in the way doing nothing saying you are just a radio guy. And do not be a person who really just wants to show up a short bit to see things and then wants to leave (saw some of those).

Well this radio guy packed a lot of aircraft pallets after 9/11, but I was trained to do so since packing your own equipment and supplies for deployment is in the job description. You have to do whatever it takes to get the job done. No time for slackers. Sure I complained, but there was a lot of satisfaction with doing it. It would amaze one how much goes into properly packing and documenting aircraft cargo. It isn't fun when a load master tells you to break down your pallet and fix it on the ramp before he will let it on his airplane. Or go drain more fuel out of a vehicle or generator. Your center of gravity looks to be off, go redo the measurements! Never happened to me thank God, but I have seen it. A lot hotter on the ramp!

 

[GROL]

This reminds me of the Movie Die Hard. Dispatcher "If you don't get off this frequency I will report you to the authorities. John McClean "Does it sound like I'm ordering a pizza?!!!"

Pregnant lady is stopped for speeding on the way to the hospital. She no longer is a risk to safety on the roadway. Does the police officer assist her and later give her a speeding ticket? Pretty sure there are no exceptions for speeding by the general public in the traffic laws. It's just good practice not to issue a speeding ticket. Heck, that one would never make it past the DA.

I carry a handheld VHF marine transceiver at the beach, but I am not on a boat. I hear a distress call, and after several tries no one responds to them. I call 911 or the Coast Guard, but do I tell the them I cannot ask the mariner questions and relay information for them? Legally I cannot as I do not have a coastal station license. 911 would probably say, seriously! Coast Guard would say you have our permission!

Enforcing rules for the sake of enforcing rules does not serve the safety of the public.

 

[jpb]

To amplify @GROL 's point, this thread has gone all over the place. As I recall, does anyone remember that even the Baofeng Random Spur Generators are Part 90 approved?

Legal? Legitimate? My radio management colleagues may shudder and flinch at the Part 90 warning screens as they install Mother /\/\'s latest CPS. But as they obstruct rational use, they obstruct situational awareness. Let's worry about the jerks who cause interference.

 

[GROL]

Here is the counter-point to the ARRL video that is self congratulatory. Note that they are from the ARRL themselves and few organizations are objective when promoting their own efforts.

HRN 359, EmComm Extra #18: Force of Two — HamRadioNow

Can you tell the complete story of ham radio in the recovery effort on Puerto Rico following hurricanes Irma and Maria in two and a half hours?

www.hamradionow.tv

If ARRL was as great in PR as they say, why was the government of PR not more laudatory about their efforts?

What did the government of PR say about the ham radio support?

Ham radio operators are saving Puerto Rico one transmission at a time | CNN

When Hurricane Maria knocked out power and phone services, volunteer "ham" radio operators lept into action to support rescue and recovery communications.

www.cnn.com

Without phones, Puerto Rico turns to amateur radio operators at worst moments

A couple dozen amateur radio operators in Puerto Rico sprang into action to help first responders communicate and more are on their way to help families.

www.nbcnews.com

Trying to communicate after the hurricane: “It's as if Puerto Rico doesn't exist”

With ham radios and spotty WiFi, Puerto Rico struggles to communicate after Hurricane Maria

www.theverge.com

Ham Radio Operators Volunteer to Reestablish Communications in Puerto Rico

The first wave of volunteers is dedicated to providing rescuers the communication services they need.

www.krgv.com

 

[mmckenna]

I firmly believe it will continue to be that until ARRL and/or FCC comes out and says "Hey... You can't do that!" or "You can now do that!" Once that happens, only then (and hopefully) the topic will be put to rest.

The FCC has, it's clearly spelled out in the rules, yet it gets ignored by people who won't read the rules. The ARRL isn't a rule making body.
There's a post from many years ago where someone specifically asked the FCC that question. The answer was, "No, you can't do that, unless you want to lose your radios". If I wasn't on a slow connection, I'd look it up.
Enforcement of said rules is whole different matter.

 

[mmckenna]

we are supposed to instead vilify them?

I never vilified them. They did the best with what they had. I suspect we don't have the whole story, either.

 

[AK9R]

Folks, the topic of discussion is the reported use of amateur radio equipment on Part 90 frequencies during a California wild fire, not what happened in the aftermath of a hurricane in Puerto Rico. Amateur radio activities in one large-scale emergency does not justify what reportedly happened in California.

Pregnant lady is stopped for speeding on the way to the hospital. She no longer is a risk to safety on the roadway. Does the police officer assist her and later give her a speeding ticket? Pretty sure there are no exceptions for speeding by the general public in the traffic laws. It's just good practice not to issue a speeding ticket. Heck, that one would never make it past the DA.

I am not a lawyer.

But, I once served as a juror in a case where a woman, who had been consuming cocaine and alcoholic beverages, decided to drive 20 miles to get treatment for a head injury allegedly caused by her spouse. In those 20 miles, she drove by several hospitals, police stations, and fire stations. During the course of her trip, she was stopped by a state police officer who determined that the woman was intoxicated and took the woman, with her consent, to a hospital for a blood draw which later proved that she was intoxicated. The woman's attorney used an "affirmative defense" to say that her illegal actions, four variations of driving while intoxicated, were mitigated by her desire to seek medical treatment and escape her abusive spouse. We, the jury, didn't buy it and found the woman guilty of the charges.

Would an affirmative defense apply if the FCC decided to charge the fire department or the helpful amateur radio operators for transmitting in Part 90 with a non-FCC-certificated radio? Probably. Would the FCC accept that defense? Maybe. Would the FCC even issue a citation for this action? I don't think so. As others have stated, the FCC has bigger fish to fry.

But, as stated above, the FCC is pretty clear in §90.203 that certification is required. As stated above, the FCC has been pretty clear that using non-FCC-certificated radios in Part 90 could result in confiscation of the radios. Unfortunately, there are a lot of amateur radio operators who believe that §97.403 is justification for ignoring the rest of the FCC's rules. And, now we have a situation where a group of amateur radio operators are being heralded for violating the rules.

 

[MTS2000des]

But, as stated above, the FCC is pretty clear in §90.203 that certification is required. As stated above, the FCC has been pretty clear that using non-FCC-certificated radios in Part 90 could result in confiscation of the radios. Unfortunately, there are a lot of amateur radio operators who believe that §97.403 is justification for ignoring the rest of the FCC's rules. And, now we have a situation where a group of amateur radio operators are being heralded for violating the rules.

and that's the real stain. As amateurs, we've historically been good stewards of the RF spectrum we're granted access to enjoy. We've shown tremendous RESPECT for what we're given.
The trend towards outlaw whackerism and "who cares it's an emergency because HAM RADIO HERO saved a life" just fuels this misinformed stance that amateur radio is a rescue radio, prepper radio, outlaw radio service.
We don't need to foster that mentality. It certainly does ZERO good when justifying keeping the service around when it's abused. Don't think that goes unnoticed by those in authority either. This isn't the kind of press ham radio needs to ensure it has a future.

 

[prcguy]

I have a lot of FCC and NTIA licenses at stake and if put in the same position as the hams in northern Cal with pending fires threatening my community, I would have done the same thing and probably more. Recent similar fires have wiped out entire towns and killed a lot of people so for me, obeying some FCC rules takes a back seat to getting the fire communications operational. It appears in this case nothing was harmed by setting up non type accepted radios on commercial freqs and it gave the fire fighters some needed backup comms.

I would also not have advertised what was done and quietly put things back to normal when the threat level subsided. Sometimes you do what you gotta do and back out quietly. My hats off to the firefighters and hams making critical and warranted decisions in an emergency to keep their town safe.

 

[AK9R]

There's a post from many years ago where someone specifically asked the FCC that question.

I found this:

Why is out of band transmit illegal? (was: Stupid question)

Just a smile .. :) and a wink. :wink: Only one problem, you cannot prevent stupid. Or fix it.. Duct tape muffles the sound, and eventually the 2x4 stops it from moving. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

forums.radioreference.com

Or, were you thinking of something else?

I would also not have advertised what was done and quietly put things back to normal when the threat level subsided.

Bingo!

And, perhaps, with that post, we should end this discussion. Does anyone have anything else to add?

 

[mtindor]

Whole towns are going up in smoke and you're worried about Part 90?

Insane, isn't it.

 

[ke6gcv]

The FCC has, it's clearly spelled out in the rules, yet it gets ignored by people who won't read the rules. The ARRL isn't a rule making body.
There's a post from many years ago where someone specifically asked the FCC that question. The answer was, "No, you can't do that, unless you want to lose your radios". If I wasn't on a slow connection, I'd look it up.
Enforcement of said rules is whole different matter.

Very valid point, @mmckenna! Thank you!

 

[vagrant]

Consider this terrible alternative:

When asked if things could have been handled differently, the chief said "We had volunteer help, but their available radios were not type certified by the FCC and although they worked fine with ours, they were out of band. I am unsure of how many lives and properties would have been saved by using those radios and personnel leaving our first responders to serve in critical roles. We are a small municipality and simply do not have the funds to outfit volunteers with FCC approved radios and gear."

How ridiculous does that sound? Seriously, if directed by Fire or Police to help with their radio situation, I'm going to help. This is what would be considered extenuating circumstances. Still, if I were to lose my licenses and transceivers because I was requested to help protect people and property...happy to help. Personally, I am not a fan of modifying my radios so I don't. Still, if I had to pop a chip to help get things done, no problem.

I definitely agree on not advertising my help, or what gear I used. I have a regular day-to-day job. The focus should be on the first responders that risk everything. If asked about my help, I believe the phrase "I don't recall" works really well.

 

[mmckenna]

I found this:

Why is out of band transmit illegal? (was: Stupid question)

Just a smile .. :) and a wink. :wink: Only one problem, you cannot prevent stupid. Or fix it.. Duct tape muffles the sound, and eventually the 2x4 stops it from moving. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

forums.radioreference.com

Or, were you thinking of something else?

That was one of them. I think another one was an actual letter that was received in reply to the same question.

 

[mmckenna]

Consider this terrible alternative:

When asked if things could have been handled differently, the chief said "We had volunteer help, but their available radios were not type certified by the FCC and although they worked fine with ours, they were out of band. I am unsure of how many lives and properties would have been saved by using those radios and personnel leaving our first responders to serve in critical roles. We are a small municipality and simply do not have the funds to outfit volunteers with FCC approved radios and gear."

The agency in question has a state OES engines, which means it has a radio that has been programmed with the interop, CalFire and USFS, BLM, etc…. frequencies.


I think one of the failures here is lack of training on the radios. The fire department is a small one, but radio training should be part of the job.