Announcing the BCD396XT and BC346XT Scanners

[Have_Teeth]

I've heard issues with 3600bps systems but can't comment on them. Theres none around my area. Is it really that bad? What system are you monitoring teeth?

First, I'll side with you on the issue that there doesn't appear to be any problems with "machine-gunning" on 9600bps systems. I have none around here to monitor, and everyone else seems to say 9600 works fine. So I'll agree with that.

But 3600 (APCO-16) systems are a whole other story. Many users have experienced the "machine-gunning" noises (scanner isn't switching to digital mode before going to voice channel) while monitoring 3600bps systems. This is bad...especially in a 3rd generation digital scanner.

As for suggesting the network should upgrade to 9600, I sort of agree. But they shouldn't do that just to make Uniden scanner owners happy! hah hah.

The particular system I monitor is a clusterf$@$. It has commercial users mixed with public safety. It's a privately owned system. I have a major issue with that too, but that's life. All of the commercial users are analog with GTX and LTS2000 radios. There's about 8500 analog radios on the system.

Changing the system to 9600 would mean purchasing new radios for the LTS/GTX customers and flash-upgrading the existing ASTRO subscriber radios for ASTRO25 trunking, not to mention the costs associated with the upgrade and the rebuild of the network to support SmartZone 6.x/7.x. It's just not going to happen.

Take a loot at the Ohio MARCS system. It's also kind of silly, in the sense that all system talkgroups are ASTRO, yet they're running an APCO-16 (3600bps) control channel. People monitoring MARCS with Uniden scanners are also driven insane.

I'll drink to Uniden providing a firmware resolution for existing BCD396T owners. That would be terrific news if it were to happen. In the past, I heard excuses along the lines of, "Well that would be a major change. We'd have to reprint manuals, etc." WHO CARES ABOUT THE MANUALS. What a silly reason.

To be honest with you altec, I don't even use GRE scanners to monitor with. I use Motorola XTS-series radios. They're very limited in scan-list members (15), but they do an excellent job in terms of RF, audio and overall performance.

The GREs I've set up are used in an audio-logging configuration. I went with GREs because of the excellent audio, the terrific C4FM/P25 demodulation performance and the willingness of their engineering group to resolve problems the scanning-community brings up. Uniden is attentive in this regard, but has never addressed the "machine-gunning" problems.

I think Uniden radios are a lot "sexier" in appearance than GREs, but GRE radios outperform the Uniden products at this time. That may change. As of yet, it's unresolved.

 

[br0adband]

Wow, stay away from this place for a while and come back to an upgrade (finally!) to quite possibly my second favorite scanner ever, the BC246T (favorite is still the Realistic Pro-43, hands down...).

I've read through most of the thread so far, grabbed the BC346XT "manual" (the 396XT will be way outta my price range, I know that much, so digital is still a no-go for me - someone really needs to do something about those damned licensing fees, it's silly) and I'm wondering about the frequency coverage. It apparently has zippo 700 MHz reception, according to everything I can find to read, sooo...

Is anyone able confirm this, that there is no 700 MHz coverage at all, ever, or it's just not listed yet because it hasn't been finalized/etc?

Thanks, and I wish everyone a Happy New Year... which it will be with these new scanners...

 

[UPMan]

There is no 700 MHz coverage in the BC346XT. However, 700 MHz thus far (and likely into the future, as well) is all digital.

 

[exkalibur]

Here's my opinion (deal with it, or keep on reading...)

The 396 was a CONSIDERABLE improvement over anything the scanning community has ever seen. It introduced a LOT of new features back in 2005. But therein lies the problem. It's 4 years old, the design is probably well over 5 years old.

Uniden, I think, has lost touch and has taken being 'top dog' in the scanner for granted and its gone to their heads. Product development is going NOWHERE. Their products haven't changed much at all in the past few years, simply throwing in new 'features' to keep the masses happy. Sure, features like ESK and Close Call DND are great - but really - REALLY - for the majority of 396 users, who cares?

There are a number of issues that I have with the current (and new) 396 offering;

1) No patch support. This holds true for both EDACS and Motorola systems. On an EDACS system, an active patch will show up as a totally new talkgroup, so if a new patch is made that isn't a usual one, if you are doing ID SCAN, it's entirely likely you'd miss it. On a Motorola system, a "supergroup" is selected and other talkgroups are patched into it. The only talkgroup that shows up on the system is the supergroup. This is the one your scanner sees. Both Motorola and EDACS systems spit out patch lists that announce to system radios what talkgroups are involved in a patch, and what that patch's talkgroup number is. System radios (that is, real radios) keep this list in memory, and reference it when they need to, so if talkgroups 4FE and 8CD are patched to supergroup 110, if a radio is set to TG 4FE or 8CD, they know to look out for TG 110, because it has an entry in the patch list. Uniden radios totally ignore these patch announcements. Memory is cheap - what gives?

2) "Machine gunning". This is caused by the inability to flag a talkgroup as Digital or Analog. The audio must first pass through a 'filter' of sorts that determines if it is analog or digital. This is why you hear a bit of the noise first. If you could flag it as digital, the scanner would ALWAYS enable the P25 decoder on digital talkgroups, so there'd be no noise. I suspect this is why this problem isn't there on the 9600. 9600 systems are 100% digital - no analog is allowed. I imagine the 396 "knows" this and whenever it detects a 9600 system, it treats all recovered audio as P25 because it should be. Again, simple fix - why hasn't it been done?

3) CTCSS/DCS/P25 searching. When searching (either close call, service search, band-scan, etc...) you have to pick between CTCSS/DCS Search and P25 decode. Why? Well, the "official" answer is that search/close call/etc... is designed to detect a signal, and if it's one you want to listen to, you'd enter it in manually if it's P25 and so on. This is just back-peddling and a pretty bad answer. The REAL reason lies in how the scanner recovers audio. Whenever a scanner is going to decode P25, there has to be a DSP in it. That DSP can do a lot more than just make P25. It works fantastic for CTCSS/DCS decoding. It's just that Uniden decided to use the same DSP chip for CTCSS/DCS decoding as it does for P25 decoding. This is why it's one or the other. As an idea - try this. Pass the audio through the P25 decoder. You'll find out very fast if it's P25 or not thanks to the P25 header. If it IS, decode it and everyone's happy. If it ISN'T, pass it then as analog and decode the CTCSS/DCS. Again. Why hasn't this been done?

4) Memory. Memory is CHEAP. Why the heck am I limited to 200 talkgroups per system? That might have been fine 5 years ago when big province/state-wide systems were rare. They're becoming more and more popular these days, requiring more and more memory capacity. Throw in 32 megs of memory. How much is it going to cost you, $10? With 32 megs (or even 16), you'd have virtually unlimited memory. Look at the GRE offerings with their "V-Scanners". Give me the option to have up as many TGs as I want in memory, and to have as many systems as I want to. Sure there'd be an upper limit. But I don't think anyone would need 5,000 systems with 5,000 talkgroups each...then again, nobody will ever need more than 640k of RAM .


Again, these are just my 2 cents. I know they'll fall on deaf ears with Uniden, because they refuse to admit their products have some SERIOUS shortcomings that they refuse to address for who knows what reason. I'm not expecting commercial quality, but I really don't see how all the Uniden "fan-boys" can support a product or a company that takes a crap on its customers, but they keep coming back for more.

Reminds me of most Mac users...

 

[exkalibur]

There is no 700 MHz coverage in the BC346XT. However, 700 MHz thus far (and likely into the future, as well) is all digital.

Why not build in the ability anyway?

Heck, if the scanner covers 25-1300MHz, why not have the ability to support LTR/EDACS/Type I, Type IIi, ASTRO25 trunking in every band, with channel ranges all over the map? Surely there's NOTHING stopping that from being possible. Sure not many will ever need it, but why not just code it once, and be done with it? It's called future expansion. What happens if 5 years from now, they open up say, the UHF Military band to public safety and we start seeing SmartZone systems at 250MHz? Don't say it won't happen - they said 20 years ago that trunking meant the end of scanning, they said 7 or 8 years ago that digital meant the end of trunking...you just never know what's around the corner in the LMR department. While you can't predict the future, you can certainly do as much as possible to be prepared for it.

Unless, of course, Uniden has no desire to support it's existing customer base... Oh wait...

 

[rdale]

Heck, if the scanner covers 25-1300MHz, why not have the ability to support LTR/EDACS/Type I, Type IIi, ASTRO25 trunking in every band

Uhh - Astro25 = Digital. The 346XT doesn't do digital. Do the math.

 

[exkalibur]

I wasn't speaking specifically to the 346. Obviously if it doesn't support Digital, then you wouldn't need to build in support for Astro25 trunking.

 

[rdale]

700MHz is digital only and you asked for that, so that's what confused me I guess...

 

[exkalibur]

700MHz is not necessarily digital only. That's Uniden's interpretation of it.

Up here in Toronto, a new city-wide SmartZone system is being planned and partially implemented. It will go one of two ways - either 3600bps with Police going Digital/Encrypted and keeping Fire/EMS/City Services analog - or 9600bps with everyone digital and the Police encrypted.

Either way, they are waiting until the 700MHz band opens up to Public Safety in Canada. If they go 3600, they'd be using analog in 700MHz. XTS5000s can already do 700MHz analog, so what's to stop someone from actually doing so?

My point isn't necessarily just about 700MHz - it's to the fact that you NEVER know what's around the corner, so it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

 

[KE4ZNR]

There are a number of issues that I have with the current (and new) 396 offering;

1) No patch support. This holds true for both EDACS and Motorola systems. On an EDACS system, an active patch will show up as a totally new talkgroup, so if a new patch is made that isn't a usual one, if you are doing ID SCAN, it's entirely likely you'd miss it. On a Motorola system, a "supergroup" is selected and other talkgroups are patched into it. The only talkgroup that shows up on the system is the supergroup. This is the one your scanner sees. Both Motorola and EDACS systems spit out patch lists that announce to system radios what talkgroups are involved in a patch, and what that patch's talkgroup number is. System radios (that is, real radios) keep this list in memory, and reference it when they need to, so if talkgroups 4FE and 8CD are patched to supergroup 110, if a radio is set to TG 4FE or 8CD, they know to look out for TG 110, because it has an entry in the patch list. Uniden radios totally ignore these patch announcements. Memory is cheap - what gives?

The 396xt will show Patched TGs as "40016 40032" meaning those 2 talkgroups are patched together. You will be able to tell patched talkgroups. And before anyone asks no I am not talking about ICalls I am talking about actual TG patches.

2) "Machine gunning". This is caused by the inability to flag a talkgroup as Digital or Analog. The audio must first pass through a 'filter' of sorts that determines if it is analog or digital. This is why you hear a bit of the noise first. If you could flag it as digital, the scanner would ALWAYS enable the P25 decoder on digital talkgroups, so there'd be no noise. I suspect this is why this problem isn't there on the 9600. 9600 systems are 100% digital - no analog is allowed. I imagine the 396 "knows" this and whenever it detects a 9600 system, it treats all recovered audio as P25 because it should be. Again, simple fix - why hasn't it been done?

I belive most will be happy with how far the xt has come in terms of eliminating the machine gunning sound. I would ask people to at least give the radio a chance.

4) Memory. Memory is CHEAP. Why the heck am I limited to 200 talkgroups per system? That might have been fine 5 years ago when big province/state-wide systems were rare. They're becoming more and more popular these days, requiring more and more memory capacity. Throw in 32 megs of memory. How much is it going to cost you, $10? With 32 megs (or even 16), you'd have virtually unlimited memory. Look at the GRE offerings with their "V-Scanners". Give me the option to have up as many TGs as I want in memory, and to have as many systems as I want to. Sure there'd be an upper limit. But I don't think anyone would need 5,000 systems with 5,000 talkgroups each...then again, nobody will ever need more than 640k of RAM .

The xt will have the ability to handle up to 500 TGIDs per system and a total of around 25,000 "channels". That seems more than enough memory for most people although there will always be someone not happy that wants to program every frequency in the entire spectrum.

Again, these are just my 2 cents. I know they'll fall on deaf ears with Uniden, because they refuse to admit their products have some SERIOUS shortcomings that they refuse to address for who knows what reason. I'm not expecting commercial quality, but I really don't see how all the Uniden "fan-boys" can support a product or a company that takes a crap on its customers, but they keep coming back for more.

You are more than welcome to have your feelings on this issue, however misguided they actually are....both companies (GRE & Uniden) are working hard to keep putting out new and innovative radios and with the economy the way it is we should be happy that at least they are still making radios...how many product managers for other major companies do you see posting on message boards in support of their products? Do you see anyone from Microsoft or Apple posting on message boards daily giving advice and helping out? Not saying UPMan is a saint just that he cares alot about the monitoring hobby and RR.com and spends alot of his free time answering questions. Hell, I don't know how Paul manages any personal time away from the hobby because he seems to be here 24/7. I would not call that "deaf ears". Has Uniden been perfect in the past? No, but at least they are continuing to improve their product lines and listening to what we have to say and working hard to give the userbase the products they want.
Hey, if you are that dead set against Uniden then don't buy the 396xt when it comes out...that just gives someone else the ability to discover the new features it comes with and enjoy the radio.
Happy New Years & Happy Monitoring!
Marshall KE4ZNR

 

[GTO_04]

Here's my opinion (deal with it, or keep on reading...)

2) "Machine gunning". This is caused by the inability to flag a talkgroup as Digital or Analog. The audio must first pass through a 'filter' of sorts that determines if it is analog or digital. This is why you hear a bit of the noise first. If you could flag it as digital, the scanner would ALWAYS enable the P25 decoder on digital talkgroups, so there'd be no noise. I suspect this is why this problem isn't there on the 9600. 9600 systems are 100% digital - no analog is allowed. I imagine the 396 "knows" this and whenever it detects a 9600 system, it treats all recovered audio as P25 because it should be. Again, simple fix - why hasn't it been done?

That is a very good question! If Uniden had the capability to flag a TG as digital only with the current 396, and chose not to do so, that would be very disappointing. I would even be willing to pay for a firmware upgrade to add that feature if that would be possible. With the ESK registration system, there was talk of firmware upgrades that add new features and there would be a charge for such upgrades. But then that idea was abandoned, without any real explanation. Could it be that they just prefer that we buy a new scanner instead?

GTO_04

 

[exkalibur]

Well, having it display TG patches is a GREAT innovation, and if it actually works, I'll give Uniden some SERIOUS credit. However, what happens when there are 5 or 6 talkgroups patched together? It happens pretty often up here. Will it allow you to show text instead of just the TG numbers involved in said patch? I guess something is better than nothing, but it just seems to me to be a waste to not go 'all the way'.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Paul. He's a great asset and the entire community should thank him and appreciate what he does for us. I'm not saying HE ignores customer's complaints, I'm saying the company does. Case in point. I need a new plastic housing for my 396, because the screen is scratched all to hell. Uniden will not sell it, period. I've tried calling the company directly, and tried Lectron (the Canadian repair people). They all tell me I need to send it in for repair. Why can't I just buy the $30 piece of plastic and do it myself?

I can order the plastic housing from the PRO-137 RadioShack (the one that looks like the 396) for $24.99. Plus it's a MUCH nicer colour. If it wasn't for the PCIF cutout hole being different from the 396, I'd just get that.

But point is, it's small things like these...that separate good customer service from not-so good. I've had nothing but trouble trying to get Uniden replacement parts, and trying to get help over the phone? Well, we won't even go there.

 

[exkalibur]

That is a very good question! If Uniden had the capability to flag a TG as digital only with the current 396, and chose not to do so, that would be very disappointing.

They already do. The 996 has had it since day one.

 

[rdale]

They already do. The 996 has had it since day one.

He's talking about the 996. Which again - is another thread

 

[K8TEK]

I belive most will be happy with how far the xt has come in terms of eliminating the machine gunning sound. I would ask people to at least give the radio a chance.

We did give their radios a chance, but so far we have received nothing but disappointment. They had 4 chances to get it right and have failed so on all of them.

 

[Have_Teeth]

He's talking about the 996. Which again - is another thread

Yes, but I think exkalibur is tryin to point out that Uniden is capable of incorporating such features/fixes into firmware builds. It's done. The did it. So why not release it for the 396? It's not like Uniden has only 2 bytes of free space left in memory for their firmware.

Exkalibur, excellent posts.

 

[rdale]

So why not release it for the 396?

You mean the 396T? I thought this thread is about the 396XT?

They had 4 chances to get it right and have failed so on all of them.

I have all 4 and not one would I consider a failed... My only big negative is the need to press a button before changing volume on the handhelds. That drives me crazy. Otherwise it's RIDICULOUS to call them failures.

 

[Have_Teeth]

You mean the 396T? I thought this thread is about the 396XT?

rdale, you're being a goofball now. I know you're an intelligent person and you've also most likely read the last few pages of posts on the subject. You know what myself and others are talking about, but are choosing to tune it out because you're trying to derail our legitimate complaints and concerns.

Please stay focused on the current topic of conversation: Continued support/development of existing products before releasing a new scanner (with the same model number!) with a multicolor display.

I have all 4 and not one would I consider a failed... My only big negative is the need to press a button before changing volume on the handhelds. That drives me crazy. Otherwise it's RIDICULOUS to call them failures.

rdale, you just haven't used your scanners on the same systems many of us frustrated folk have used our scanners on. There are legitimate problems. Please don't be so short-sighted. What works for some, may not work for others.

Apparently those who use the BCD396T on an ASTRO25 (9600bps) trunking system are not having problems. Fine. But the scanner has issues with conventional and 3600bps digital operation. That's a fact. And the scanner fails in this area. Especially since it's 3rd generation and other vendors HAVE gotten it right.

 

[K8TEK]

You mean the 396T? I thought this thread is about the 396XT?



I have all 4 and not one would I consider a failed... My only big negative is the need to press a button before changing volume on the handhelds. That drives me crazy. Otherwise it's RIDICULOUS to call them failures.

I see you live in Michigan. If you were to monitor the Ohio equivalent of your Michigan MPSCS system, the Ohio MARCS system, you would be singing a different tune. The motorboating issue on Smartzone's digital talkgroups is unacceptable. Before you tell me you haven't had one issue with this on the MPSCS system, let me remind you that system is a P25 system with a 9600bps control channel and everything! The scanner doesn't have to differenciate between analog and digital talkgroups because the scanner already knows it is digital. There are no analog talkgroups on a P25 system, so the scanner will not switch over to an active voice channel thinking it is analog, because it isn't possible. Several suggestions have been made on how to fix the problem, but instead of fixing it on their legacy products, they create a completly new product by simply adding a letter to the model number. The radio (BCD-396T) is a failure in my eyes and evidently in Uniden's eyes, too. If Uniden thought they had an edge over GRE, they wouldn't have released a completly different radio. Evidently GRE did something right, and now Uniden wants to emulate it. Granted, Uniden radios may look cooler, but what is the point of owning a Ford Mustang when it works about as well as a Chevy Nova without tires.

 

[rdale]

You know what myself and others are talking about, but are choosing to tune it out because you're trying to derail our legitimate complaints and concerns.

Feel free to start a thread on your concerns - but this thread is NOT about the continued support/development of existing products. This thread is about the XT line.

Please don't be so short-sighted. What works for some, may not work for others.

Oh. So you are saying that claiming Uniden's last 4 scanners to be "failures" is not being short-sighted? Not just thinking about their own use? Hmmm...

I see you live in Michigan.

Good observation. But I spend quite a bit of time around OH/IN and quite often hear MARCS and Safe-T and have not found motorboating to be a major pain. Could it be if I monitored 24/7? Possibly. But that's not the point.

My point is - if you want to whine about existing products, that's your right. If you want to call them a failure, go ahead.

BUT DON'T DO IT IN THE XT THREAD, WHERE YOUR COMMENTS HAVE NO CONNECTION TO REALITY! Who's to say that the XT doesn't completely eliminate motorboating?