Hello, people of RadioReference. I am a college student pursuing a degree in electrical engineering, and currently am in the process of trying to start my own 2-way radio business. I am currently in the middle of getting business licenses, setting up finances, etc.. Part of the philosophy of my business I am trying to create is to be a one-stop-shop for 2 way radio: I want to handle evaluation of the customer's needs, what equipment would suit them best while being the most cost effective, and also handle radio/repeater programming, filing a license, and physically setting up/installing equipment... as well as frequency coordination. After about 30 minutes of scouring the internet, I cannot figure out how to become a frequency coordinator. Could anybody point me in the right direction for how I could do that? If this 2 way radio business ends up being feasible, I would hate to be having to farm out my clients to an external frequency coordinator that would have to be waited on. I am guessing that being a frequency coordinator involves lots of scouring the ULS, as well as knowledge of radio propagation, and occasionally math. Thank you to anyone who could point me in the right direction. Apologies if I am in the wrong forum.
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Becoming an FCC frequency coordinator
- Thread starter knockoffham
- Start date
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Frequency coordinators are managed through the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology. I think you'd need to contact them to get a proper answer.
But I don't think being a frequency coordinator is what you want, based on what you are saying. Frequency coordination is usually divided up by industry/use, so being a frequency coordinator for one or more of those would be a big challenge, and might limit what you can do.
There are many radio shops that do everything you mention above, but they all work with one of the existing frequency coordinators for that part of the work. Being your own frequency coordinator and then providing licenses to others might come across as a conflict of interest.
I've used frequency coordinators many times, and I've never had a long wait. Just saying that there's probably not much need for another. In fact, a few have recently shut down and combined their operations with others. Starting up a new one might be a challenge and not bring in enough work on it's own to offset the effort/money.
But I don't think being a frequency coordinator is what you want, based on what you are saying. Frequency coordination is usually divided up by industry/use, so being a frequency coordinator for one or more of those would be a big challenge, and might limit what you can do.
There are many radio shops that do everything you mention above, but they all work with one of the existing frequency coordinators for that part of the work. Being your own frequency coordinator and then providing licenses to others might come across as a conflict of interest.
I've used frequency coordinators many times, and I've never had a long wait. Just saying that there's probably not much need for another. In fact, a few have recently shut down and combined their operations with others. Starting up a new one might be a challenge and not bring in enough work on it's own to offset the effort/money.
lenk911
Member
Congratulations on pursuing a tough degree. One license you should pursue is taking the first exam to be a Registered Professional Engineer, the EIT or Fundamentals of Engineering exam. You are eligible to take this 8-hour state exam pending graduation or thereafter. The after 5 years of verifiable experience you take the final 8-hour exam to get a PE license.
In all 50 States and Canadian Provinces, you need a PE license to sell/advertise engineering services to anybody. It is similar to a medical license for a doctor or passing the bar for a lawyer. Without it you can only be a captive to one employer engineer.
College only teaches you the fundamentals and how to learn. Befriend the grey bearded radio technicians and engineers. They are the ones bruised and battered by Murphy's Law. They and Murphy will teach you the real world of communications engineering. The mobile communications industry needs good qualified PE's. Good Luck !
Thank you. I didn't really think about the different types of frequency coordination. My thought would be to be a radio shop like you mentioned, but also do in-house frequency coordination to save the customer and myself some money, radio shop first frequency coordinator second. I'll see if I can find anything from the FCC office of Engineering and Technology. Thanks for the advice!
Thank you. I didn't know about the PE license, I will do that in a couple years. I spent a lot of making myself familiar with Murphy's Law messing with electronics
Congratulations on pursuing your degree and I agree with the post above. An electrical engineering degree will help you with a few things in the radio business but knowledge of LMR, frequencies, radio programming, troubleshooting and repair, etc, are not taught in college. Its mostly hands on training from experienced engineers and techs in the 2-way radio world and it takes years to get good at it. If your going to own and operate a radio business a business degree might be more beneficial as the main reason a radio business might fail is due to business mistakes and not technical mistakes.
About 35yrs ago I had a small 2-way radio/repeater business for 10yrs where I could easily handle the technical part due to many years of training and experience, but the "being in business" was a nightmare for me and my local franchise tax board. Fortunately I had a regular full time job to pay the bills and I installed/maintained repeaters and programmed radios mostly in the evenings and weekends. If I had my wonderful wifee back then we would have made an awesome team with her business/management skills and my technical skills, but we are retired now and not looking for any complications from running a business now.
As others have mentioned, becoming a Frequency Coordinator is not what you want to do. (In fact, in my mind you are taking on a lot of liability and headache trying to become an approved frequency coordinator with the FCC.) In the business that you propose, you can be the interface between the customer and the Frequency Coordinator, and you can fill out the appropriate 601 forms on the customer's behalf. You can even propose potential frequencies to the Coordinators. (I do that a lot when filing for new frequencies) But leave the actual "coordination" and final submittal up to the Frequency Coordinators.
As @lenk911 mentioned, pursuing your PE license would be a huge benefit. (Even if you don't start your own business, it will open many doors for your career.) Having a PE License in the 2-way radio world is kinda rare.... Most people I know in the 2-way field have a LOT of experience, but usually just a tech degree or military comms experience. (Not trying to downplay that experience in any way.)
But the ability to stamp drawings, approve designs, and be a licensed PE in the 2-way radio field will give you an advantage.
As @lenk911 mentioned, pursuing your PE license would be a huge benefit. (Even if you don't start your own business, it will open many doors for your career.) Having a PE License in the 2-way radio world is kinda rare.... Most people I know in the 2-way field have a LOT of experience, but usually just a tech degree or military comms experience. (Not trying to downplay that experience in any way.)
But the ability to stamp drawings, approve designs, and be a licensed PE in the 2-way radio field will give you an advantage.
I'm 2 years into the degree, and while the radio fascination has always been there I didn't have the career idea until a few months ago. I am planning on keeping it as a small "hobby" business, and I am trying to get my girlfriend in on it although she is not as nerdy as I. I am not looking forward to the business aspects as much, but have already worked out some of it and am probably going to go get a bank account and do state treasury pain in a few days. Thankfully, my dad is a co-owner of a small business so he is willing to help me with advice for how to get that part of it rolling. I am planning on keeping this business fairly small, but obviously be available enough to provide good customer service and be viable financially. I'm hoping it ends up being a good idea and I end up doing it full time... but yeah I have as much know-how you can get in terms of watching YouTube videos and buying and messing with radio equipment, but lack the real world professional experience. I have contacted some people at my university and am trying to convince them to hire a student as a radio tech.
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My idea, if that makes sense is to do exactly that, except also do frequency coordination in-house. I don't plan on offering it as a standalone service. After a lengthy phone call this afternoon with the FCC, I have learned the process of becoming a frequency coordinator. From what I was told and emailed, it is mostly "write us a good case for why you should be a coordinator," they make sure you would be competent and capable, and then the request is open to public forum. Then it is approved or denied. So, I figure why not try and write them a really good essay. If they say no, I'll try in a few more years with experience.
Until yesterday I did not know about the PE license, and I'll totally be doing that!
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
That's a good plan.
Most of the small local radio shops have suffered from the following fates:
1. Cellular phone has killed off a lot of the market for smaller users.
2. Larger nationwide radio shops have sucked up all the business and either kill off the small companies, or buy them up.
3. The owners retire with no one to take over the business.
Getting an entry level job would be a good idea. There's a lot to the industry that goes beyond being able to program a radio. IP networking is pretty much mandatory knowledge at this point. Being able to install mobile antennas and wire vehicles is an important requirement. Tower climbing certifications and suitable insurance would be important if you plan on doing repeater systems.
You may also want to research getting your FCC GROL license. While not necessary for running a shop, many use it as a requirement to get a job. Some work does require it (marine radios, aviation radios) and some require it to design/build public safety bi-directional amplifier systems. It's a good thing to have in your resume, even if you never use it.
Ok. I will look into the GROL license before too long. I know a good bit about IP networking and how it's used to link sites, but obviously I still have much to learn. I have a good amount of experience (just as a hobby) doing vehicle wiring and installs- my current car is about to be on its 4th antenna setup, lol. 1 HF/6m/2m analog radio, 1 2m/70cm analog/DMR radio, 2m mobile extender, 2 1/4 wave 2m antennas, 1 5/8 wave 2m (also used for HF/6M) antenna, 1 5/8 wave UHF antenna. All NMO mounted. Radios are remote mounted with control heads installed in custom metal console.
Insurance is something I didn't even think of, so that's going on the list of "things I must consider" as well.
Currently I hope to start this as a hobby business, selling/installing part 95 and part 90 stuff. Probably I will pursue a PE license and hopefully the radio business will end up being full time some day, but if not no biggie. If this turns out to not be viable, it won't really have any expenses. I plan to have some other full time job with the radio business secondary unless it takes off. I'm trying to find entry level employment in similar fields nearby but it's proving to be difficult. This summer if I can't find a job I enjoy I'm going to be trying to do radio sales/install full time, probably mostly part 95. Additionally I know of a few nearby systems that could do with some reprogramming or small modifications that would not require drastically modifying their licenses and would provide immense upgrades, so I'll be knocking on their doors.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Sounds like a good plan.
Not to add more to your "to-do" list, but a few other things to consider:
Programming radios comes with a lot of cost. Programming software and good programming cables for the decent Part 90 radios can get very expensive, and unless you are only programming what you sell, trying to cover all the models/brands can get expensive really quickly. Motorola software is usually free, if you set up and account with them, but cables get expensive.
Kenwood/EF Johnson and Harris software gets expensive.
As for Part 95, finding enough GMRS users that will pay to have radios installed/programmed may be a challenge. But it would be something to look into.
Programming for public safety can come with some additional requirements, most agencies won't let an unknown touch their radios. If it's trunked system, they won't give out system keys.
If I was college age and wanted to get into radio, I'd either look into an existing shop to build up your skills/knowledge, or start talking to the cellular carriers. They are often looking for techs, and the pay is much better. Other fields to consider:
Wireless internet service providers.
Cellular install companies
DAS system operators
Many large cities/counties will have their own radio shops.
Utility companies often have radio techs, not just for two way radios, but for microwave, control, etc.
Occasionally you'll see people looking for techs on this site. Keep your eyes open.
Check around to see if there are any local radio shops that may be looking for help.
Not to add more to your "to-do" list, but a few other things to consider:
Programming radios comes with a lot of cost. Programming software and good programming cables for the decent Part 90 radios can get very expensive, and unless you are only programming what you sell, trying to cover all the models/brands can get expensive really quickly. Motorola software is usually free, if you set up and account with them, but cables get expensive.
Kenwood/EF Johnson and Harris software gets expensive.
As for Part 95, finding enough GMRS users that will pay to have radios installed/programmed may be a challenge. But it would be something to look into.
Programming for public safety can come with some additional requirements, most agencies won't let an unknown touch their radios. If it's trunked system, they won't give out system keys.
If I was college age and wanted to get into radio, I'd either look into an existing shop to build up your skills/knowledge, or start talking to the cellular carriers. They are often looking for techs, and the pay is much better. Other fields to consider:
Wireless internet service providers.
Cellular install companies
DAS system operators
Many large cities/counties will have their own radio shops.
Utility companies often have radio techs, not just for two way radios, but for microwave, control, etc.
Occasionally you'll see people looking for techs on this site. Keep your eyes open.
Check around to see if there are any local radio shops that may be looking for help.
I’m aware of the pains of programming. I already have a whole computer dedicated to RSS/CPS and a whole bin of programming cables, and whenever I can find a download link for some sort or programming software I get it. I’m going to stay away from public safety unless my radio business idea really takes off. Also most of my state at this point is on a state-run trunked system (who I might try to work for).
I meant more very small systems like MURS and FRS, since new GMRS licenses can’t be used for business anymore. Weirdly enough my university uses a 40 year old GMRS repeater for parking enforcement but DMR or P25 for almost everything else.
There aren’t really any radio shops around me (if there are they don’t make it obvious) but I’ll look into those other jobs and search harder. I’m trying to become a radio tech for my university since I think they do that mostly in-house. Thank you!
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Good places to work if you can find an opening.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
From the POV of the 30 something sys admin. 10 years ago I was in a similar position (man, has it already been 10 years?). In college (I have degree in Mechanical Engineering) I got into RF related stuff. Narrowbanding is what really got me going in terms of getting familiar with radios. I took an internship with big oil doing microwave backhauls, worked part time managing a WISP (routing was still fairly foreign to me at the time). When I graduated I found a decent job at a Motorola dealer and worked there while we got gobbled up by one of the large nationwide dealers but during that period I really grew to understand IP and routing. After transferring to a different branch office I ended up just feeling overworked and overpaid for what I was actually doing under the more sales and installation oriented mentality so I left to work for a hybrid ISP/MSP managing wifi networks for a few years. Then I ended up working for a LMR manufacturer for just under two years before accepting a sys admin position at one of my former customers/contract holders managing their regional Astro 25 system.
While doing all of that I kicked off a small radio dealer business. Had a couple of lines but my biggest two issues were capital and for the most part people were happy with their current radio shops I since I didn't really offer anything unique (aside from more personalized experience) there wasn't a ton of call. As life became more involved I stopped pushing the business and eventually just let it fade into the ether. With a good amount of drive and financial backing you could make a decent business out of it but for me I chose to take the time with my family and enjoy the work versus pushing the business.
While doing all of that I kicked off a small radio dealer business. Had a couple of lines but my biggest two issues were capital and for the most part people were happy with their current radio shops I since I didn't really offer anything unique (aside from more personalized experience) there wasn't a ton of call. As life became more involved I stopped pushing the business and eventually just let it fade into the ether. With a good amount of drive and financial backing you could make a decent business out of it but for me I chose to take the time with my family and enjoy the work versus pushing the business.
I'm not up on the need for repeater rental these days but in the early 80s I did ok in that field. Back then the key was to find good sites cheap, sometimes trading air time on a repeater for site rental and also purchasing good used equipment and knowing how to align and install it properly. I could build up a very high performance mountain top repeater system for much less than the bigger players in the area who may have purchased everything new and spent 10X more than me.
Then I connected with other local LMR dealers and undercut the big players in repeater rental fees and build a customer base. One of my early sources of customers was Bearcom, who had just gone from a single walki talki rental business to actual brick and mortar shops selling Motorola products. I also specialized in 12.5KHz splinter channels back then and had access to narrow band crystal and ceramic filters for my repeater receivers which eliminated interference to my repeaters from the higher power mainline channels either side of me.
It turns out one of my mountain top site owners passed away and some of his assets were purchased by another company who's owner was the one who petitioned the FCC many years ago to open up the UHF 12.5KHz splinter frequencies for use and he was thrilled to see me doing business with those.
So the bottom line for my post is look into repeater air time rental and see if there is a market in your area, then see if there are any high sites you can get into cheap them maybe build up a repeater air time rental business.
Then I connected with other local LMR dealers and undercut the big players in repeater rental fees and build a customer base. One of my early sources of customers was Bearcom, who had just gone from a single walki talki rental business to actual brick and mortar shops selling Motorola products. I also specialized in 12.5KHz splinter channels back then and had access to narrow band crystal and ceramic filters for my repeater receivers which eliminated interference to my repeaters from the higher power mainline channels either side of me.
It turns out one of my mountain top site owners passed away and some of his assets were purchased by another company who's owner was the one who petitioned the FCC many years ago to open up the UHF 12.5KHz splinter frequencies for use and he was thrilled to see me doing business with those.
So the bottom line for my post is look into repeater air time rental and see if there is a market in your area, then see if there are any high sites you can get into cheap them maybe build up a repeater air time rental business.
That's what I was thinking as a possibility. In my hometown there is a whole industrial park, and within the town there is only a single business with a radio system and it is a farm. So I'm considering putting up a DMR repeater for the municipality and the industrial park, and renting out repeater use as well as programming/selling subscriber units. The trouble is that then I would have a large initial investment for the business (from the eyes of a 19 year old anyway)- probably at least a few thousand to make a good repeater, consisting of a couple CDMs, a custom MMDVM board, a tower, and possibly having to put up a small building and get electricity to it. It would probably be very local though, because the terrain is very flat and there's 5 or 10 miles between my hometown and the next town with lots of businesses.
If your going to put up a commercial repeater don't cobble something together and especially from a couple of mobiles. For analog and or P25 you can't beat a Quantar. For DMR/MOTOTRBO I would bypass the XPR stuff and use an MTR3000. Otherwise I would recommend setting up a half dozen or more of the mobile types and have them on hand for quick swap out. But you will get tired of that quickly and so will your customers.
Isn't the MTR3000 EOL'd now? I'd be looking at one of the SLR series.
I'm going on what friends in the business are using. Which one is more reliable like duty cycle etc?
I was thinking DMR. There are some part 90 HTs on the market that can do pseudo-trunking with normal FB2 DMR repeaters. I need some initial customers first though because I don't have the money to set something like that up right now.
