Best Portable/Mobile ecosystem: NX-5000 line vs Motorola R7 + XPR5000e

[lucasec]

I have used the HHCH it is ok but if you have the chance go with a kch-20 control head as it has sdcard and bluetooth data (for programing) built in and you don't need to add it to the decks this way and has more keys to be able to program in a clean and user friendly way. when using the HHCH in multi deck view it is very tiny and hard to use. it is better to uses it in single deck view on a multi deck system as it give you more information. and not sure if it has really been talked about but the 5k mobiles are not multi band that are multi deck unlike a lot of other brands and radios that are multi band. multi deck allows you do do a config like 3 vhf radios or 3 uhf radios or a V-U-V setup and hear traffic from all 3 at the same time. a multi band radio you only hear traffic from one ch at a time so 5k is like having up to 3 independent radios on one control head.

Yeah, the multi-deck option is clever and elegant but I do understand it's a little different from a single multi-band unit. Also remember seeing on a video some interesting stuff like being able to one-touch turn it into a cross-deck repeater.

So I can do two control heads (for example, a HHCH + a KCH-20) and program each independently? Can both heads operate both decks or does one have to end up being fixed to a single?

I also assume audio routing can get funky. I've been digging through the "Common Funcs" manual and from what I understand, a HHCH or the handheld speaker/mic attached to a KCH-20 will only output the selected deck. And I don't see any reference to a mechanism to auto-switch between decks when the unselected deck receives a transmission according to some priority order. So effectively I need an external speaker on each decks if I want to monitor both for traffic (even if I don't care about hearing two transmissions simultaneously).

Meanwhile on the Bluetooth side, I'm seeing both the deck itself has Bluetooth and a KCH-20 has Bluetooth, a distinction of which I assume only matters when doing multi-deck?

 

[tlemke940]

that is correct it dose have the one touch repeater function between 2 decks

as far as 2 control heads yes and no about being programed independently. when it comes to the control heads the programing in actually in the decks and each head has its own "profile" as with most other radios if you make a radio change say a pl tone change it affects both but things like the brightens is only for the one control head.

this is out of the multi rf deck manual
When operating a Multi RF Deck system, simultaneous reception is possible on all RF Decks.
The speaker on the Control Head will output audio received only from the Selected RF Deck.
When operating a Dual Control Head system, the speakers on both Control Heads will output
audio received only from the Selected RF Deck. If an External Speaker (KES-3 or KES-5) is used,
it is possible to output audio received from an Unselected RF Deck.

there is no setting or option to auto switch between decks depending on what one is receiving. you can switch manually via a key press.

with the Bluetooth they both have Bluetooth but normally you would want to use the control head as it will normally not be covered up under a seat or in the trunk and will have the best range the other thing about Bluetooth to the rf deck is it will only transmit on that deck ware if it was on the control head it would transmit on the selected deck

 

[lucasec]

there is no setting or option to auto switch between decks depending on what one is receiving. you can switch manually via a key press.

with the Bluetooth they both have Bluetooth but normally you would want to use the control head as it will normally not be covered up under a seat or in the trunk and will have the best range the other thing about Bluetooth to the rf deck is it will only transmit on that deck ware if it was on the control head it would transmit on the selected deck

Makes sense, thanks for the clarifications. Kenwood's manual is incredibly verbose—I can tell I could have a lot of fun exploring all the options of these .

I found one spec sheet for the KCH-21R that mentions it having Bluetooth: https://pdfs.kenwoodproducts.com/81/KCH-21R.pdf. There are parts of the manual that talk about Bluetooth and only mention the KCH-20 though.
And pretty clearly the KCH-21R does not have an SD Card slot as you said.

 

[tweiss3]

So I can do two control heads (for example, a HHCH + a KCH-20) and program each independently? Can both heads operate both decks or does one have to end up being fixed to a single?

Yes. Each head can select what deck they want to control or listen to. You will have to come to an agreement, as when the HHCH changes the channel on the deck, it changes on the other head as well.

I also assume audio routing can get funky. I've been digging through the "Common Funcs" manual and from what I understand, a HHCH or the handheld speaker/mic attached to a KCH-20 will only output the selected deck. And I don't see any reference to a mechanism to auto-switch between decks when the unselected deck receives a transmission according to some priority order. So effectively I need an external speaker on each decks if I want to monitor both for traffic (even if I don't care about hearing two transmissions simultaneously).

Yes. The KCH-19 and KCH-21 (HHCH) route the selected deck through the internal speaker. The KCH-20 routes it though an attached KES3 or KES5. The KCH-20 and KCH-21 can "see" either details on the selected deck or less information on all decks. Look at section 16.5 (pg 264) of the common functions manual to see what it looks like. I like detailed on the selected deck.

As for the "unselected deck" audio, yes you need a speaker for each deck. In my truck, I use the KCH-19 with 2 KES5 with the KAP-2 board. The unselected decks go to the speakers under the seat. On my wife's car, it is a KCH-20 with a KES5 mounted next to the control head, and I used a mono to stereo splitter cable out of the 3.5mm on each deck to a single Yaesu MLS-200 speaker under the front seat. Different ways to do it, but both work well. You can set a button to mute the unselected speaker so you can better listen to 1 conversation when things get busy.

Meanwhile on the Bluetooth side, I'm seeing both the deck itself has Bluetooth and a KCH-20 has Bluetooth, a distinction of which I assume only matters when doing multi-deck?

It comes down to bluetooth programming, which I deem as a necessity. With the KCH-19, you need KWD-5003BT on each deck, but with the KCH-20, BT programming goes through the control head, not the deck. BT programming is faster than using the cable.

As others have said, the Kenwood radios allows multiple DMR IDs, as well as multiple TG lists. For ham, its much nicer, have a system and talkgroups for each DMR system. You also aren't limited to 16 TG's on receive groups like Moto.

As for negatives to the Moto, battery prices and I'm not a fan of the touchscreen on a radio (R7). You also can't do dual deck on Mototrbo mobiles.

 

[N4KVE]

My R7’s got a big screen, but it’s not a “touch screen”.

 

[nickwilson159]

I have never used a R7, but I have a bunch of 7550e and 5550e radios. My personal ones are used for Part 90 and ham. I also had a couple Kenwood 5300s and 5800s but ended up selling them. I liked them a lot, but I will never, ever, ever, ever (did I say ever?) use a radio for ham use without audio leveling. Without it, it is an extremely painful experience, with the mix of radios, CCRs, hotspots, etc., and just makes the entire experience unenjoyable.

That's the one thing I miss about my XPR7550e after switching to an NX5200 - that DSP, audio leveling, and Motorola audio were just an absolute pleasure to listen to. But for me, there are many more 'pros' with the Kenwood than the XPR7550e, so I made my choice.

I have been very tempted to get an XPR5550e - if its receiver performance is on par with the XPR7550e, it'd be hard to beat.

 

[AM909]

I'll note there does appear to be both TX and RX AGC available in the Kenwood 5000 series, with two different "strengths", under KPG-D1N Audio Profiles. I think it only applies to digital modes. Anybody try these?

 

[tlemke940]

that is for digital only unfortunately i seen that too. i have used them and they do work depending on what you are doing

 

[lucasec]

Is the DSP/Audio Leveling exclusive to Motorola portable models such as R7/XPR7550e or it applies to their mobiles as well?

If I understand right, there's two forms of audio leveling:

1. Normalizing the volume of all incoming transmissions so they play out at the same average volume level you set the knob on the receiver to.
2. Automatically adjusting the speaker volume level to match the ambient noise characteristics of the location the receiver is in.

I assume 2 is far more relevant on portables whereas 1 could benefit both mobile and portable users.

 

[N4KVE]

Is the DSP/Audio Leveling exclusive to Motorola portable models such as R7/XPR7550e or it applies to their mobiles as well?

If I understand right, there's two forms of audio leveling:

1. Normalizing the volume of all incoming transmissions so they play out at the same average volume level you set the knob on the receiver to.
2. Automatically adjusting the speaker volume level to match the ambient noise characteristics of the location the receiver is in.

I assume 2 is far more relevant on portables whereas 1 could benefit both mobile and portable users.

Gen 2 radios. #1. In my case, the repeater owner’s TX volume is much louder than the rest of us. But with my R7, his volume is the same as the other guys, but I can tell his audio is being processed to equal the volume of the rest of us. It’s a trade off, but still preferable to his usual loud TX audio.

 

[alcahuete]

That's the one thing I miss about my XPR7550e after switching to an NX5200 - that DSP, audio leveling, and Motorola audio were just an absolute pleasure to listen to. But for me, there are many more 'pros' with the Kenwood than the XPR7550e, so I made my choice.

I have been very tempted to get an XPR5550e - if its receiver performance is on par with the XPR7550e, it'd be hard to beat.

Yeah...I like the Kenwoods a lot. Really nice radios, and being able to also cover P25 or NXDN is great.

The 5550e is not as hot as the 7550e, even on paper. .16uV/.14uV vs. .22uV/.19uV on UHF. The 7550e has the absolute hottest receiver out of any radio I have ever used. The 5550e is a great radio though, and also handily outperformed the NX-5800, but again, there's a tradeoff. You add the extra digital mode in the 5800 and a small handful of other features.

 

[AM909]

Unfortunately, high sensitivity can come at the cost of IMD performance. It can take some digging or just real-world testing in the desired environment to find out what works best.

 

[lucasec]

Circling back on the Kenwood P25 option for a moment, the P25 conventional license should cover most of what I need to do P25 on amateur bands I assume? (I'm not interested in trying to figure out how to slot into a trunking system I don't own—from what I understand that's mostly where system keys and such come into play).

There are one or two amateur P25 repeaters in my area. I assume most/all people operating on those are running commercial gear as I've seen no ham-marketed equipment advertising P25.

 

[tweiss3]

Circling back on the Kenwood P25 option for a moment, the P25 conventional license should cover most of what I need to do P25 on amateur bands I assume? (I'm not interested in trying to figure out how to slot into a trunking system I don't own—from what I understand that's mostly where system keys and such come into play).

Correct, KWD-5100CV P25 conventional is all you will need for amateur P25.

 

[mmckenna]

There are one or two amateur P25 repeaters in my area. I assume most/all people operating on those are running commercial gear as I've seen no ham-marketed equipment advertising P25.

Right, there is no P25 amateur equipment. It's all commercial LMR stuff.

 

[kayn1n32008]

(I'm not interested in trying to figure out how to slot into a trunking system I don't own—from what I understand that's mostly where system keys and such come into play).

This is correct.

There are one or two amateur P25 repeaters in my area. I assume most/all people operating on those are running commercial gear as I've seen no ham-marketed equipment advertising P25.

There are no ham specific manufacturers of P25 gear, only LMR manufacturers.

For conventional P25, you have to choose from:
Kenwood
Harris
Motorola
Tait
BK

Vertex Standard did make a conventional o ly P25 capable radio, but they are no longer made and there is zero support for them now. Batteries will start to dwindle in availability as will audio accessories.

 

[alcahuete]

Unfortunately, high sensitivity can come at the cost of IMD performance. It can take some digging or just real-world testing in the desired environment to find out what works best.

Thankfully that isn't the case with the 7550e. It does great with IMD. Best receiver I have ever personally used.

 

[AM909]

There are no ham specific manufacturers of P25 gear, only LMR manufacturers.

For conventional P25, you have to choose from:
Kenwood
Harris
Motorola
Tait
BK

Icom (even repeaters), too.

 

[lucasec]

So to close the loop on my original post, I think I'll set my sights first on trying to pick up an NX-5000 mobile. Not that I am not also tempted by the 5550e, but seems like there's just a lot more I can do on the Kenwood side of the ecosystem with all the different accessory configurations (remote head, multi-head, multi-deck, etc.). Will see how long it takes me to learn the software then see if I want a portable in the same or different ecosystem.

Goal: An NX-5000 mobile, UHF only initially (option to add VHF deck in the future). I'm mostly interested in the ham 70cm band plus being able to monitor GMRS (462-467 MHz). Licensed DMR conventional (option to add P25 conventional in the future). Start with just the handheld control head (for discreet install in my crossover), but if I can track down a KCH-20 affordably wouldn't mind having it to experiment.

Here's my rough list of parts I would need to build an appropriate starter kit (would appreciate if someone can let me know if I missed anything):

• NX-5800K2 (since I don't intend to use the basic head, could instead get NX-5800BK2 + KMB-33M + KCT-23M)
• KPG-D1NK Kenwood software (ideally wideband version)
• KPG-46XM Programming cable
• Feature Licenses
  • KWD-5300CV DMR Conventional
  • option for KWD-5002SD SD card slot for RF deck (since the HHCH lacks an SD card, could skip this if I were to use a KCH-20 somewhere in the setup)—how useful is the SD card? I understand the recording feature is very limited without it. Not sure what else it adds.
  • option for KWD-5100CV P25 Conventional
  • option for KWD-5001FP front panel programming
• KCH-21RM handheld control head
  • Per Kenwood docs, "KCH-21RM has built-in Bluetooth SPP license that will also activate the connected RF Decks."
  • There is a short cable version (KCH-21RM-S), but assume this would be too short for pretty much any deck placement outside of in the glove compartment or under the dash (under the drivers seat would almost certainly need the longer cable).
• KCT-77M2 cable for HHCH
• KRK-15BM remote control head kit for deck

* Part numbers in italics also seem to be included in a kit, part number 5AHM

A few other items:

• For setting this up on my testbench before doing a permanent install in the vehicle, worth getting Kenwood's KPS-15, or I should just plug it into whatever respectable DC supply I have on the bench?
• What do folks like for UHF antennas on these? (are there any unique considerations for commercial gear outside of general antenna selection principles I would apply to any other radio)

 

[mmckenna]

So to close the loop on my original post, I think I'll set my sights first on trying to pick up an NX-5000 mobile. Not that I am not also tempted by the 5550e, but seems like there's just a lot more I can do on the Kenwood side of the ecosystem with all the different accessory configurations (remote head, multi-head, multi-deck, etc.). Will see how long it takes me to learn the software then see if I want a portable in the same or different ecosystem.

Goal: An NX-5000 mobile, UHF only initially (option to add VHF deck in the future). I'm mostly interested in the ham 70cm band plus being able to monitor GMRS (462-467 MHz). Licensed DMR conventional (option to add P25 conventional in the future). Start with just the handheld control head (for discreet install in my crossover), but if I can track down a KCH-20 affordably wouldn't mind having it to experiment.

Here's my rough list of parts I would need to build an appropriate starter kit (would appreciate if someone can let me know if I missed anything):

• NX-5800K2 (since I don't intend to use the basic head, could instead get NX-5800BK2 + KMB-33M + KCT-23M)

Getting the RF deck only will save you some money if you don't need the control head.

• KPG-D1NK Kenwood software (ideally wideband version)
• KPG-46XM Programming cable
• Feature Licenses
  • KWD-5300CV DMR Conventional
  • option for KWD-5002SD SD card slot for RF deck (since the HHCH lacks an SD card, could skip this if I were to use a KCH-20 somewhere in the setup)—how useful is the SD card? I understand the recording feature is very limited without it. Not sure what else it adds.

Why do you think you need the SD card option? I'm not running it on any of our radios. I don't need to record audio at the radio and I don't need to track GPS location.

• • option for KWD-5100CV P25 Conventional
  • option for KWD-5001FP front panel programming

As a ham you might find the FPP handy. You can offset some of that cost by not purchasing the control head/SD card options. On the other hand, I run all LMR gear and haven't found the need for FPP very often. These radios have such a large channel capacity, it's easy to program in everything you want. Adding a channel or two isn't a big deal if you have software and a laptop/cable.

• KCH-21RMhandheld control head
  • Per Kenwood docs, "KCH-21RM has built-in Bluetooth SPP license that will also activate the connected RF Decks."
  • There is a short cable version (KCH-21RM-S), but assume this would be too short for pretty much any deck placement outside of in the glove compartment or under the dash (under the drivers seat would almost certainly need the longer cable).

The longer cable will give you much more flexibility with mounting locations and if you ever move this to a different vehicle. 4 feet isn't much, but might work if this goes under the drivers seat, but you may have a hard time fitting two rf decks under there with all the cables. Getting the radio up off the floor would be a good idea. Lots of moisture, dirt and damage possibility down there.

• KCT-77M2 cable for HHCH
• KRK-15BM remote control head kit for deck

* Part numbers in italics also seem to be included in a kit, part number 5AHM

A few other items:

• For setting this up on my testbench before doing a permanent install in the vehicle, worth getting Kenwood's KPS-15, or I should just plug it into whatever respectable DC supply I have on the bench?

There's nothing special about their power supply. I'd use what you have. The Kenwood power supply is just a rebadged (can't remember the brand).

• What do folks like for UHF antennas on these? (are there any unique considerations for commercial gear outside of general antenna selection principles I would apply to any other radio)

If all you are going to transmit on is 70cm, then get an NMO mount UHF antenna that gives you the gain you want. Stick with the name brand (Larsen, EM Wave, Laird) brands. Don't buy an expensive radio like this and connect it to some Chinese POS hammy grade antenna.

If you really plan on using this to listen to a lot of traffic across the useable band that this radio gives you, then my favorite has always been a basic 1/4 wave whip. Plenty of bandwidth to cover the capability of the radio.

Other than that, it's a UHF radio. No special antenna needed.