kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Sorry for essentially repeating what you said already, your advice is spot on as always. I didn't see your response before I replied.
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Best Portable/Mobile ecosystem: NX-5000 line vs Motorola R7 + XPR5000e
- Thread starter lucasec
- Start date
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
No, I'm glad we agree.
Really like my 1/4 wave antennas for these applications. I'd suffer out in the flatlands….
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
I really like them too. They just work, and they are low profile.
If you're possibly dropping your headliner (even part of it) to drill and pull in the NMO mount cable, I'd honestly suggest going ahead and drilling both holes and mounting both NMO mounts now in a single shot. You can always put an NMO weather cap on the unused one, tag the cable with "left" and "right" (or however you want to notate them) and have it ready for later installation of a second radio whenever you get around to it. And you will.
You'll thank yourself later when you don't have to go through the installation again. Kind of along the lines of measure twice, cut once. Measure twice, drill once, install both, done!It will negligibly (if at all) effect any resale value of your vehicle having the extra mount even if you never use it.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Good call. No point in doing it all twice. Us having the second one in already will probably make the OP want to install a second radio faster.
DeoVindice
P25 Underground
Here's a third vote for simple quarterwaves, especially in rough terrain and when operating with high-site repeaters. I have a Laird QWB450 and QWB144 on my service truck, both perform great. Flatland performance is good enough, 3-6dB on the mobile side generally won't make or break things except far out in fringe areas.
Regarding equipment selection, try reading the operator's instruction manuals for each radio. You may find that you prefer one manufacturer or the other's way of doing things.
lucasec
Member
I couldn't find this explicitly called out in the spec anywhere, but do both the NX-5700 and NX-5800 have a PL-259 female connector for the antenna?
How do you folks usually wire up the power? I had scoped out an empty slot in the fusebox and was planning to install a new fuse and wire into there, but I noticed the KCT-23M cable already has a fuse inline. Better to bypass the vehicle fusebox entirely and go straight to the battery terminals? Also, does anyone bother with the ignition sense wiring?
For the Kenwood I also have yet to find any sort of installation manual. There's some high level description of assembling the multi-deck setup in the "Common Func" and I found a service manual with a few diagrams of the pinout for the accessory connectors and desk/head wiring.
How do you folks usually wire up the power? I had scoped out an empty slot in the fusebox and was planning to install a new fuse and wire into there, but I noticed the KCT-23M cable already has a fuse inline. Better to bypass the vehicle fusebox entirely and go straight to the battery terminals? Also, does anyone bother with the ignition sense wiring?
On the Kenwood side I have found and spent a fair amount of time in the "NX-5000 Common Func Reference", which has been super useful at understanding how a lot of the software features work. Still need to track down the Motorola equivalent though.
For the Kenwood I also have yet to find any sort of installation manual. There's some high level description of assembling the multi-deck setup in the "Common Func" and I found a service manual with a few diagrams of the pinout for the accessory connectors and desk/head wiring.
Yes.
I have a 4ga wire from the battery, with a 70A breaker within 4" of the battery terminal, that goes all the way to the board all the equipment is mounted on under the rear seat. The 4ga is connected to a BlueSea fuse box that also has a ground bus. The ground bus is connected to the seat mounting bolt at the floor. Each deck gets it's own fuse. I also have a ignition sense wire that runs to another bus where each deck is connected (this was revised on another install where I took ignition sense to the control head).
That's about all you need to get started.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Yeah, only the 7-800MHz models use N connectors.
I'll add to what @tweiss3 said above.
Never tap into existing vehicle wiring. Radios need clean power directly from the battery. Fuse taps should not be use for the main radio power. Only place you might want to use one is for an ignition sense circuit. I prefer to find a better source as fuse taps can get flakey, and you need to still pay attention to the capacity of the original circuit.
So, yeah, clean power. If you are installing, or planning on installing, more than one radio, you really should approach this with the idea that power is important. Like above, I usually run a 6 gauge conductor from the positive battery post to a 60 amp circuit breaker on the firewall.
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From there, it is a 6 gauge from the breaker to a fused distribution block behind the truck seat. From that fused distribution block, I feed the radios directly. I usually use something like a Blue Sea block with enough fuse positions to support everything I need plus a spare or two. That'll get you clean power off the battery, only require running one wire, and make it much easier to add/change things in the future.
Use something larger if you think you'll need more outputs.
As for the wire, make sure you get something that is rated for automotive use and is rated for fuel/oil resistance. You also want something that is a high strand count, so it's flexible. I've used quite a bit of this stuff from Amazon:
It has the SAE J1127 rating that you ideally want for automotive use.
For the negative, use a short length of 6 gauge from the negative block to a nearby body ground. You do not want to run your negative all the way back to the battery as modern cars often have a sensor on the existing negative lead to watch current consumption. Wiring back around that can confuse the computer and cause issues.
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I use ignition sense on all my radios. Kenwood radios have a built in timer, so you don't need an external box to handle it. I usually set the radios for 30 minutes. Makes it nice to shut the engine off and keep the radios on while I'm sitting. Also, keeps the radios from cycling on and off frequently if you are running errands. It also will shut the radios down if you forget to turn them off. Can save your battery. But keep in mind that the radios will always draw a bit of power, even when off. I just came back from 2 weeks off work and my service truck sat for all that time. It's got a Kenwood NX-900 in it as well as a Harris XL-200M. Both are wired up as above, powered full time and use ignition sense. Cranking was a bit slow after 2 weeks of sitting but started up no problem. If I'd been leaving it longer, I would have opened the circuit breaker, or just had one of my co-workers take her on a hot lap to keep the battery charged.
I've never seen a really good install guide from Kenwood. Harris has a really good one that goes in depth on how to do things correctly. What I covered above is 90% of it.
What ever you do, watch out for the install advice you'll see often within the ham radio community. A lot of it is really poor advice, some of it is down right dangerous.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Add to above:
60 amps is overkill for two radios. These radios pull about 12-13 amps each, and since they are not trunking radios, unlikely you'll ever be transmitting with both at once.
But, the expensive part isn't the wire. It's the labor. So do it once, do it right, never have to worry about it again. 60 amps will cover things if you ever decide to add a 100 watt deck, an HF mobile, scanner, CB, GMRS, whacker lights, etc.
Also, the larger conductor gives you less voltage drop over the run. Probably not an issue for most, but it squarely falls under the "do it right the first time" heading.
60 amps is overkill for two radios. These radios pull about 12-13 amps each, and since they are not trunking radios, unlikely you'll ever be transmitting with both at once.
But, the expensive part isn't the wire. It's the labor. So do it once, do it right, never have to worry about it again. 60 amps will cover things if you ever decide to add a 100 watt deck, an HF mobile, scanner, CB, GMRS, whacker lights, etc.
Also, the larger conductor gives you less voltage drop over the run. Probably not an issue for most, but it squarely falls under the "do it right the first time" heading.
I'll add, I admit I setup for much more power needs that I actually installed. I had other plans before I scaled way back. I could have used smaller wire/breaker, and I was using the manufacture's power rating/distance table, which I think was conservative.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Never hurts to have more than what you need. My work truck has two trunking radios in it, so I designed around them possibly transmitting at the same time.
Plus, I had a good stock of #6 lugs, so it was just easier/cheaper to use what I already had.
The bigger challenge is getting through the firewall.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
With the install being talked about, the groundplane is off centre, so regardless of antenna, the pattern is not going to be perfect. Yes it has a bit of gain, but not a whole lot.
lucasec
Member
I wasn't referring to the "add-a-circuit" type devices so much as populating an empty slot in a fused distribution box that's already there in the cabin. But I think your point stands that unless I exactly what type of wire feeds this, where it's coming from, and what current it's already carrying from other devices off the panel, no guarantee it would be stable or have the current-carrying capacity needed for the radios.
Breaker would go on the engine compartment side of the firewall with the goal of just protecting against a short in the distribution block or wire once it runs inside the vehicle?
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Right.
For the ignition sense circuit, it's acceptable and often the only way to do it on some vehicles. I did some mobile installs in mid-2000 Chevy Colorados. I needed an easy ignition sense solution for those. I found that even the lower trim trucks had wiring for a sun roof taped off behind the trim on the A pillar, drivers side. There was a fuse slot under the hood for it. If the trucks had had sun roofs, there would have been a 20 amp fuse in there. I extended the wiring to the radio, and stuck a 3 amp fuse in the slot.
Spending some time going over shop electrical manuals can be a good idea. If you have an American full size truck or SUV, you'll often find dedicated wiring for upfits in them. You just need to know where to look.
Yes. Ideally close to the battery. The breaker is there to protect the wiring running from the battery into the cabin in case there is a short circuit to ground. The distribution block fuses will protect the individual feeds to the radios.
It might sound like a lot of work, but it's easier when you only have to pull one wire through the firewall. Plus, it's easier to dress in and make it all look factory. Some appropriate heat/fuel/oil rated split loom tubing over the wires under the hood will hide everything nicely.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
The breaker should be as close to the battery as you can get it. The breaker protects the cable from a dead short. If you have a dead short between the breaker and the battery, the cable is going to become molten copper in short order, because between the breaker and the battery, the cable is the fuse. Having any cable between the battery and the breaker is a risk.
Regardless of what others have said, I'd use no more thay a 50A breaker. That will allow you to transmit with 2x 45w radios at the same time. Something you will probably never do. Regardless of what people say, a 45w radio, transmitting into a properly tuned antenna will pull between 10A and 15A. My 25w XPR5550 is pulling under 5A.
lucasec
Member
So quick update for this thread... I did order a radio. I went with the NX-5800 mobile + handheld head control head + license for DMR conventional and FPP (I skipped the P25 as the cost is multiple times that of DMR, not worth it for the number of P25 systems in the amateur bands in my area).
Shipping is still a week or two out so I'm sure I'll have a few more questions once I get the hardware in the door and set up on my bench.
Shipping is still a week or two out so I'm sure I'll have a few more questions once I get the hardware in the door and set up on my bench.
FPP is pretty useless for DMR but decent on FM. On commercial radios FPP is really only for modifying an existing channel NOT for creating a new channel from scratch. I make a few placeholder channels that I can reconfigure as needed.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Currently my go to for portables are a pair of XTS2500 model 3, 1x VHF and 1x UHF. Neither of them have FPP. I haven't found FPP to be all that useful.
If I'm traveling, I preprogram my radios, I am bringing my laptop, and have my XTS cable in its carry case. If I'm doing any sort of event, I'll get a channel line up ahead of time and bring my laptop just incase. It's trivial to add an extra channel, or even create a one off, event specific zone.
