California Radio Interoperable System (CRIS)

tsalmrsystemtech

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Everybody kept saying CHP was not going to move to CRIS. I saw this coming a 100 miles away even two months ago on June 11th.

If they are putting up trunked sites all over the state then you knew low band is coming to an end in probably less than 5 years for sure or maybe even sooner in waves through out the state.
 

mmckenna

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Everybody kept saying CHP was not going to move to CRIS. I saw this coming a 100 miles away even two months ago on June 11th.

If they are putting up trunked sites all over the state then you knew low band is coming to an end in probably less than 5 years for sure or maybe even sooner in waves through out the state.

They are not putting up sites all over the state. The CRIS system is designed to cover 90% of the population and 60% of the geographic area. 700MHz is impractical to cover the state. Even the VHF sites that they've deployed in the Eastern Sierra don't cover much. Just look at how many sites CalTrans needs for a conventional 800MHz system.

Low band will be around for a long time. There's parts of the state that don't even have low band coverage. The logistics and costs of building out enough 700 or VHF sites to cover all corners of the state isn't even close to realistic.

I'm sure CRIS will continue to grow. One of the beauties of it is that it can link into other systems fairly easily, so becoming a "system of systems" is a likely path ahead. But 100% statewide coverage, hell, even 90% statewide coverage isn't realistic.

Don't sell your low band radios yet….
 

flux4201

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From my understanding the entire system is (was) supposed to be fully TDMA voice.


Just my personal thoughts, they will have one "primary" 'channel' in the clear and a second "tac" 'channel' encrypted to pass PII.


From what I have been told, the Kenwood radios are already setup with the base/mobile frequencies as a single 'channel' (RX on base frequency/TX on mobile frequency), they also have different alpha tags with a separate 'channel' for each area office, even if more than one area office is on the same frequency.

So your claiming they are splitting talkgroups on their kenwood (i assume) "p25" radios for "one channel"(were talking about p25 channels here and more specifically that recently posted trunked channel list since this is the "CRIS" thread)? When you talk about frequencies as channels that's analog for the most part (there are exceptions since you can do talkgroups on analog and digital), but on p25 trunking "channels" as most people refer to are "talkgroups" right...... Or are you talking about the existing conventional analog channels?
 

gmclam

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Everybody kept saying CHP was not going to move to CRIS. I saw this coming a 100 miles away even two months ago on June 11th.
LOL. Except the state is over 900 miles in length from Oregon to Mexico!

If they are putting up trunked sites all over the state then you knew low band is coming to an end in probably less than 5 years for sure or maybe even sooner in waves through out the state.
Yeah but 5 years in government time is closer to a decade.
 

scannerboy02

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So your claiming they are splitting talkgroups on their kenwood (i assume) "p25" radios for "one channel"(were talking about p25 channels here and more specifically that recently posted trunked channel list since this is the "CRIS" thread)? When you talk about frequencies as channels that's analog for the most part (there are exceptions since you can do talkgroups on analog and digital), but on p25 trunking "channels" as most people refer to are "talkgroups" right...... Or are you talking about the existing conventional analog channels?
All I was saying is that the current Kenwood low band radios (from what I have been TOLD, I have not actually seen this myself) already have the base and mobile channels combined into one channel. The old setup (GE Ranger radios) had dual receivers and a "S" and "C" PTT to transmit on either the "S" (base) or "C" (mobile) frequency. From my understanding they no longer have the dual receive/transmit capability on the Kenwood low band radios.

KG7PBS said: "I personally think CHP is going to keep the original set up so officers won’t have a hard time adjusting to the new system by totally Redesigning it. K.I.S.S.", and my reply to that was to say the system has already been redesigned so the officers are already used to it.
 

officer_415

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The old setup (GE Ranger radios) had dual receivers and a "S" and "C" PTT to transmit on either the "S" (base) or "C" (mobile) frequency. From my understanding they no longer have the dual receive/transmit capability on the Kenwood low band radios.

I have heard units talking car-to-car on the mobile frequency refer to it as "Channel 2" so maybe it is set up as a separate channel now. I believe the 700 MHz portables/VRS extenders were set up that way from the beginning (Ch 1 was low band "S" and Ch 2 was low band "C").
 

scannerboy02

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I have heard units talking car-to-car on the mobile frequency refer to it as "Channel 2" so maybe it is set up as a separate channel now. I believe the 700 MHz portables/VRS extenders were set up that way from the beginning (Ch 1 was low band "S" and Ch 2 was low band "C").
Just to confirm, 'talking car-to-car on the MOBILE frequency', not the base frequency as it used to be?

The Kenwood low band radios could have a "talk around" mode that would be simplex on the base frequency, like many other conventional radios can do.
 

officer_415

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Just to confirm, 'talking car-to-car on the MOBILE frequency', not the base frequency as it used to be?

The Kenwood low band radios could have a "talk around" mode that would be simplex on the base frequency, like many other conventional radios can do.

My mistake, that’s what I meant.
 

mkewman

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I think there's a lot of romaticism for the Low band system, but there's really not a lot of net financial positives for the state when you're talking about the low band system versus the 700 system. And before everyone gets all up in arms, I'm a big fan of Low band stuff, but even I have to admit it's days are numbered. I think that it's going away in about 90% of the state that will be covered by the 700 system in the next 5 years, and in the remaining 10% of the state, in about 10 years. More on that later.

Think about it this way-
We're talking about fewer and fewer vendors that actually make low-band equipment = skyrocketing bids in the next few years.
Larger equipment (massive filters, duplexers, antennas) costs more and more in rack space real-estate at non-state-owned sites.
On the actual tower, those big low-band antennas take up quite a bit of tower space as well, costing quite a bit of money monthly at non-state-owned sites.

Parts are getting harder to find for the system, the remaining manufacturers of Low Band Equipment don't have the product stockpiles of parts like they once did (and supply chain issues are making it even harder). And that's not just a line from a manufacturer, that's a reality. Ask any radio technician who works on Low band equipment, they'll tell you that they love it, but it's difficult, or they hate it, because it's really hard to find parts or radios. It's just not sustainable anymore to have a radio system with a large portion made up of custom made or special order parts.

Not to mention the combined savings of shutting down redundant radio sites on two different peaks of the same mountain for 2 or 3 different state agencies. (Yes, that's a thing.)

Local agencies who use Low Band have dropped it for the same reasons. Lets be honest here, no radio system is going to cover 100% of the state, that's just not going to happen. However, the 700 mhz system CAN cover the majority of CHP's jurisdiction for mobile coverage. After all, CHP doesn't cover 90% of California. Nor do they require handheld coverage in their entire jurisdiction, we don't hold that standard to the Low band system, let's stop holding a brand new, not totally launched trunked system that's in its initial phases of installation to the same standard as a radio system that has been continually improved over 86 years, that's pretty unrealistic.

Are there remote CHP offices that will use Low band for a few more years until OES adds either adds more sites, or decides to add VHF high band sites. Probably. (By the way, there's nothing that I've read that excludes the possibility of adding VHF High licenses that the state already has to this system in some rural areas. Everything that I've read just says that they're using their 700 mhz license, but IMO there's nothing to stop them from getting another license for a particular area that's hard to cover, or acquiring a license from another agency that is joining CRIS.)

A great example of this is is the Pennsylvania PA-STARnet P25 Phase II system. It's a Tri-band system of VHF-High, UHF, and 7/800. Works well enough for them to have their state patrol on it, and it replaced a nearly useless open-sky system. Works seamlessly on a triband APX radio from some of the folks I've talked to out there. I drove through PA last month and was extremely impressed with it's coverage. Pennsylvania has a lot of rural areas with valleys, hills and mountains. Lets not pretend that California has the monopoly on difficult topography to cover either.

But back to the end user experiance for CHP. I wouldn't be surprised if we still have Low Band VHF on cars for another 5 years and the fancy in-car systems choose the radio it'll transmit on, based on whether it has good enough reception of the trunked system. (It's not hard to do, radios can be programmed to have a GPO indication when a trunked system is out of range.) It'll heavily favor the trunked system and once they find that they don't use the low band sites, they'll rip 'em out. I think it's going to happen a lot faster than people give OES credit for.

It's all fun and games to make fun of how slow things move in the state of California, and red-tape, and blah blah blah, but once sites start going in for these systems, it actually happens quite fast. I remember when EBRCS was approved and the vast majority of it was up and running within 5 years, and lets remember that Motorola did that build-out, not the local governments. When Motorola does these sites, it's like seal-team 6. If they have a crew that lollygags and holds up the project, they don't work with them long. Motorola can do 90% state coverage in 5 years as well. It's not the state's red tape that's holding this project up, it's most likely supply chain.
 

mmckenna

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Comtronix makes low band repeaters and the CHP has been rumored to be trying them out.



As for 700MHz or VHF to replace the low band system for CHP, there's a lot of places in the state that don't have VHF Low coverage, or anything else. Getting enough sites to give VHF or 700MHz coverage is way too expensive. Maybe some day, but as a taxpayer, I hope it is not soon. The logistics of building that out, backhaul, power, environmental impact, access, it's a huge thing. I've got a few sites down the Big Sur coast and getting any sort of radio coverage in there is nearly impossible. Most of the way there's zero cell coverage. CHP doesn't have much coverage. Monterey County doesn't have much coverage. Even getting an analog phone line down there gets pretty difficult. There is a company extending microwave service down the coast and is using one of our sites, but its still not going to make a big difference.

Maybe satellite based is in their future.
 

mkewman

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CHP doesn't have much coverage. Monterey County doesn't have much coverage. Even getting an analog phone line down there gets pretty difficult. There is a company extending microwave service down the coast and is using one of our sites, but its still not going to make a big difference.
Again, you're comparing non-existent apples to oranges. It's HIGHLY unlikely they'll build out extra sites to cover areas that low band doesn't even cover.

As for the Comtronix repeater you speak of, haven't seen them at any of the CHP sites I've been to recently. All I've seen is Midland... Which I think Comtronix will repair if memory serves?

Again, I'm not saying the band isn't the right band for the job in terms of propagation, of course it is.

The economics of getting equipment and maintaining the equipment to use the band, the supply chain, and frankly the infrastructure of that low band system are on borrowed time.

If people think CHP's *primary* mode of communication across the board in 10 years is going to be Low Band, I've got some Oceanfront property in Sacramento, I'd like to sell them.

To reiterate, I'm not saying it's going away completely, but it's days as a primary means of communication across the state are numbered.

First person to quote this post in exactly 10 years when I'm wrong gets a free case of beer and all the "I told you so" you can muster.
 

mmckenna

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Again, you're comparing non-existent apples to oranges. It's HIGHLY unlikely they'll build out extra sites to cover areas that low band doesn't even cover.

I agree, I don't think they are going to build new VHF Low band sites. But I doubt they'll do away with low band in a location where it works better than 700MHz or VHF will. My point was there are parts of the state where the CRIS system just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Unless CHP is going to do something using satellites (Sat Phone, Sat Terminal?), I don't see a rush to abandon a radio that works. After all, they just spent a heck of a lot of money putting new low band radios in their vehicles.

As for the Comtronix repeater you speak of, haven't seen them at any of the CHP sites I've been to recently. All I've seen is Midland... Which I think Comtronix will repair if memory serves?

I wish I could remember the guys name. Him and his son were at IWCE and I talked to them for about 10-15 minutes. He used to work for Midland and did a lot of repairs. The Kenwood he had was an offering to replace the failing/NLA Midland gear. He said that CHP had been trying it, even in NXDN mode.

Again, I'm not saying the band isn't the right band for the job in terms of propagation, of course it is.

It has got its place, and it is always nice to have options. I think the EFJ radio system they installed in the vehicles was pretty smart.

The economics of getting equipment and maintaining the equipment to use the band, the supply chain, and frankly the infrastructure of that low band system are on borrowed time.

It certainly could be. We know there are VHF low antennas on the market, and low band is still used in other parts of the world. There is a French company that is actively making VHF Low band mobiles and portables, some even have FCC type certs.
The big cans are an issue, but I'm running duplexers that are 30+ years old, as I'm sure a lot of us are (and probably a lot older). For enough money, I'm sure someone will continue making them.


If people think CHP's *primary* mode of communication across the board in 10 years is going to be Low Band, I've got some Oceanfront property in Sacramento, I'd like to sell them.

Well, I can get to the ocean from there, just takes a lot of paddling.

I agree, CHP is going to like the CRIS system. It works, it gives them a lot of options. It solves problems that the current system will not. I just don't see 700MHz or even VHF ever covering enough of the state to make it the only solution.

To reiterate, I'm not saying it's going away completely, but it's days as a primary means of communication across the state are numbered.

First person to quote this post in exactly 10 years when I'm wrong and gets a free case of beer and all the "I told you so" you can muster.

I agree 100%, and I'm rather fond of beer.
 

mmckenna

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Are there remote CHP offices that will use Low band for a few more years until OES adds either adds more sites, or decides to add VHF high band sites. Probably. (By the way, there's nothing that I've read that excludes the possibility of adding VHF High licenses that the state already has to this system in some rural areas. Everything that I've read just says that they're using their 700 mhz license, but IMO there's nothing to stop them from getting another license for a particular area that's hard to cover, or acquiring a license from another agency that is joining CRIS.)

There are VHF high band CRIS sites in the Eastern Sierra. It's a good solution. And they have such a mix of other VHF systems that don't really get used enough to justify their continued upkeep. I'd like to see some of those old VHF networks get rolled into some high level overlay. TDMA P25, squeeze two slots out of each frequency, makes sense.
Between Dept. of Fish and Game, CESRS, and all the other "statewide" systems could be rolled in and make things a bit better for everyone. Will be interesting to see if they go in that direction. Just need to get radios upgraded.
 

mkewman

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I agree, CHP is going to like the CRIS system. It works, it gives them a lot of options. It solves problems that the current system will not. I just don't see 700MHz or even VHF ever covering enough of the state to make it the only solution.

I think we're actually in agreement. A single radio system can ever completely cover this state, but I think it can come reasonably close, other bands or satellite can make up the difference.
 

mmckenna

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I think we're actually in agreement. A single radio system can ever completely cover this state, but I think it can come reasonably close, other bands or satellite can make up the difference.

Yeah, I'd love to pick some brains at OES. I did get a chance to talk to one of their head guys at IWCE a few years back, but it was mostly about NG911 stuff. I do seem to recall him talking about CHP and CRIS, but that was a a few years ago.

I'd think that with the new satellite technologies going up, that there's something that would work as an alternative. I'm looking at rolling out a Harris system that has LTE/WiFi integration when radios are outside our coverage. Wouldn't be hard to do that through satellite connections.
 

tsalmrsystemtech

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Most likely they could use Star-Link as a satellite solution most likely. Why not. Cheap and having high speed VOIP. No brainer. But we do see the direction of CHP moving forward with CRIS for sure. Its a statewide system for sure and more and more agencies will join in the next five to ten years for sure. Low Band will go away and be phased out. Headquarters for CHP is in Sacramento and you already see talk-groups being assigned to CHP on CRIS in the RR database and you see who is first on the list.

I have seen lately where oil rigs around the world right now are replacing their old satellite based systems with Star-Link for high speed internet for their oil rigs out in the middle of the ocean.
 

tsalmrsystemtech

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Yeah, I'd love to pick some brains at OES. I did get a chance to talk to one of their head guys at IWCE a few years back, but it was mostly about NG911 stuff. I do seem to recall him talking about CHP and CRIS, but that was a a few years ago.

I'd think that with the new satellite technologies going up, that there's something that would work as an alternative. I'm looking at rolling out a Harris system that has LTE/WiFi integration when radios are outside our coverage. Wouldn't be hard to do that through satellite connections.

APX NEXT. LTE/WiFi No LMR then auto switch to LTE or WiFi without user doing anything to the radio.
 

mmckenna

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Monterey County SO order the APX Next sounds like they gonna add LTE on the back end of the system. I wonder if oes cris users would do the same at some point.

I'd imagine they will at some point. Hopefully it isn't a single brand solution. That would destroy some of the usefulness of the system.
 
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