Capacity Max Tier 3 finding LCN's

[jeremym70]

So one of the local service providers seems to be slowly transitioning their Connect Plus trunked system over to a Capacity Max Tier 3 system one channel at a time. I have found several local sites using DSD Fastlane with a control channel active and neighbors being broadcast. Lately I have found one voice channel active on most of the sites with some voice conversations and talk groups that are also still being broadcast on the Connect Plus system. It seems they are shutting off some of the channels on the Connect Plus and transitioning them over to the Tier 3 system.

My question is how do I corelate channels numbers I see on DSD Fastlane versus what I see using LCN Finder on a Uniden SDS. The conversion was pretty simple on the Connect Plus system. On the Tier 3 I am seeing channel #'s all over the place such as 485, 1807, 279, 1929 etc. Not sure if there is a master channel plan conversion that converts frequency over to channel # for each system similar to NXDN trunking?

 

[mwjones]

Most Tier 3 systems, including Motorola's Capacity Max do use a bandplan of sorts, but it sounds like you're already ahead of that with the data from your SDS100/200. The LCN's identified there can be turned into LSN's for DSDPlus with a bit of simple math:

Multiply the LCN times 2 and add 1, so for example LCN 485:

485 x 2 = 970 + 1 = 971

So 971 is what you'd put in your DSDPlus.frequencies file.

You can also use the DMR Frequency Calculator to construct the bandplan (see the below message for the link to the latest version):

LCN to Frequency calculator for DMR TIII

Thanks for the reply, @Kazzaw. It's the OrionMax network in NSW. I haven't forgotten about you, I just haven't had a chance to make it near a computer today to see what I have logged for around NSW. I'll have a look tomorrow and get back to you

forums.radioreference.com

Just keep in mind that with the frequency calculator, you need some valid data to start with, to use as the reference frequency and to identify a known target (to verify the spacing is correct), but you can then get the LCN/LSN for all the other frequencies on the system.

 

[Ubbe]

Multiply the LCN times 2 and add 1, so for example LCN 485:

485 x 2 = 970 + 1 = 971

So 971 is what you'd put in your DSDPlus.frequencies file.

Isn't that for slot2 and you don't add 1 to get the LSN for slot 1? I believe TierIII system use slot 2 as the control data slot but you'll also need the voice slots in the frequency file?

/Ubbe

 

[GTR8000]

To convert a DSD+ Ch # to a LCN for a Capacity Max system, divide the oddly numbered DSD+ Ch # by 2, then round that down to the whole number.

So for example:

279/2 = 139.5, so the LCN is 139
485/2 = 242.5, so the LCN is 242
1807/2 = 903.5, so the LCN is 903
1929/2 = 964.5, so the LCN is 964

You should not be seeing evenly numbered Ch #'s in DSD+, however if you do, divide by 2 then subtract 1. So in the examples above, 280 would still be LCN 139, 485 would still be LCN 242, etc.

 

[mwjones]

Isn't that for slot2 and you don't add 1 to get the LSN for slot 1? I believe TierIII system use slot 2 as the control data slot but you'll also need the voice slots in the frequency file?

/Ubbe

When you do the multiplication to convert (Uniden) LCN to (DSDPlus) LSN, you'll get an even number. The result would be Slot 2 of the frequency below the actual frequency. Adding one corrects that, makes it an odd number, which is Slot 1 of the correct frequency.

In the DSDPlus.frequencies file you only need a single entry, which would be for Slot 1. DSDPlus will automatically calculate and report Slot 2 on DMR systems (Capacity+, Connect+ or Tier 3), so it doesn't need the separate entry. You can add a second entry for Slot 2, but why waste the time and add bloat to the file for something that is unnecessary.

In the 3 frequency Tier 3 site that I monitor, there are 5 active voice channels, so slot 2 may or may not be the control channel.

 

[jeremym70]

Sorry for the super delayed response, I appreciate all the inputs above. Trying to finally get back into this project, super busy and unfortunately the system is not very busy yet, so hard to get some meaningful data. So some of my channels seem to match up with math above, however I tried the calculator and had mixed results with finding results. The data below is from a spreadsheet I made to try and map out what's going on. Most of the data is from DSD FL, with some from doing an LCN search on my SDS100. Most of the CC DSD data is from looking at what channel number is showing as neighbor frequencies. Any thoughts on filing in some more gaps with a channel plan?

Site #	Site Name	CC Freq	CC DSD	CC Uniden	VC1 Freq	VC1 DSD	VC1 Uniden	VC2 Freq	VC2 DSD	VC2 Uniden
H1	KGON	451.009375	1880? Or 803		451.725	279 280	139	464.05
H2	Bald Peak	452.4625	397	1308	463.6		1089
H3	Prospect Peak		1929
H5	Davis Peak	453.0125	485 486		463.55	2171 2172	1085		2251 2252
H6	Rainier Hill		381
H8	Dog Mt		1
H9	Capitol Peak		807
H24	Burdoin		1807
H45	Mt Scott	451.9375	313		463.975	2239 2240	1119 or 1631
H71			485

 

[jeremym70]

Sorry for the super delayed response, I appreciate all the inputs above. Trying to finally get back into this project, super busy and unfortunately the system is not very busy yet, so hard to get some meaningful data. So some of my channels seem to match up with math above, however I tried the calculator and had mixed results with finding results. The data below is from a spreadsheet I made to try and map out what's going on. Most of the data is from DSD FL, with some from doing an LCN search on my SDS100. Most of the CC DSD data is from looking at what channel number is showing as neighbor frequencies. Any thoughts on filing in some more gaps with a channel plan?

Site #	Site Name	CC Freq	CC DSD	CC Uniden	VC1 Freq	VC1 DSD	VC1 Uniden	VC2 Freq	VC2 DSD	VC2 Uniden
H1	KGON	451.009375	1880? Or 803		451.725	279 280	139	464.05
H2	Bald Peak	452.4625	397	1308	463.6		1089
H3	Prospect Peak		1929
H5	Davis Peak	453.0125	485 486		463.55	2171 2172	1085		2251 2252
H6	Rainier Hill		381
H8	Dog Mt		1
H9	Capitol Peak		807
H24	Burdoin		1807
H45	Mt Scott	451.9375	313		463.975	2239 2240	1119 or 1631
H71			485

And just for some additional info this is a Motorola system. I have had mixed to poor results with the LCN finder on the SDS. It doesn't work at all with a local Tier 3 Hytera system, which I believe is a know bug. It seem to be a little better with the Motorola system with the voice channel, but the control channel seems to show differently every time I run LCN finder.

 

[pro92b]

I calculate the following:
451.7250 279-280 139
451.9375 313-314 156
452.3675 381-382 190
452.4625 397-398 198
453.0125 485-486 242
455.0250 807-808 403
461.2750 1807-1808 903
462.0375 1929-1930 964
463.5500 2171-2172 1085
463.6000 2179-2180 1089
463.9750 2289-2290 1119
464.0500 2251-2252 1125

 

[Ubbe]

Use 450.000 as base with a 12,5KHz step and you should be able to correct any errors in your list.

/Ubbe

 

[pro92b]

The base can be a bit arbitrary if the formulas compensate for any offset. I used a base of 449.9875 with a step of 12.5 kHz in my calculations.

 

[Ubbe]

I used thewraith2008's universal LSN/LCN calculator and the result matches those found, so it seems it works as it should, after it have been perfected several times to be used with different system types.

/Ubbe