Commercial radio for listening to P25 trunking? NOT INTERESTED IN NAS.

[WX4JCW]

BK Radios will do non affiliate scan. I actually talked to the BK technical rep at a trade show four years ago, and he had helped a user set up a BK radio for NAS.

As far as the XG-100P radios, I was researching using one of them for NAS earlier this year. I learned that Harris made an update in a firmware version to require a system key. I don't remember what the firmware version is, but the fella who posted here on rr.com appeared to know his stuff. Also, the P7300 radios will do NAS as well.

Right now, my city is changing over to a Harris P25 Phase II system. I'm waiting to see if they encrypt the PD and FD dispatch channels before I spend the money on a Unication G4. Even though I use commercial radios as scanners and ham radios, I decided not to use a commercial P25 portable for monitoring trunked systems.

mine has the latest firmware and no key is needed, at least i think its the last one - XLPR06P01

 

[wwhitby]

mine has the latest firmware and no key is needed, at least i think its the last one - XLPR06P01

Great! Maybe the fella that posted what I read was wrong??

 

[WX4JCW]

Great! Maybe the fella that posted what I read was wrong??

its possible, im not a know it all, just my experience

 

[ElroyJetson]

I've been using both an M7300 in my vehicle and a P7300 for no TX scanning on P25 systems for YEARS.

Properly speaking, you can't use the "official" NAS methodology on a Harris radio, but you can program it for true no TX, receive only, no login, no affiliate operation with absolute ease. Just check the RX only check box on every talkgroup and uncheck the boxes relating to auto login and login on group or system change. Easy.

"Official" NAS methodology is aimed strictly at Motorola radios that don't offer a truly silent (No TX at all) capability in trunking except when using the TX DISABLE button/knob/switch feature. (Yes, that does work, and it has to because it's there for EMCON safety. (Emission Control) Like having your radio in a shed full of blasting explosives and sensitive blasting caps. It MUST NOT emit a signal in this scenario or...maybe...BOOM.)

Since you can't mode slave a trunked scan list to a conventional channel on a Harris radio, this method can't be used on a Harris radio. Instead you use the more direct approach of straight trunked programming, with TX inhibit/RX only engaged on all talkgroups.

 

[WX4JCW]

the other thing I want to mention is this is a nightmare for system admins and can cause problems, if you really don't know what you are doing stick with a Unication, I have played with radios for a while and the Unication is pretty much the same as running a system radio, yeah it might not be $2000 but it does work, and it wont mess up the system you are monitoring, these guys really really don't like that.

 

[K2NEC]

Yea, you are correct. That was my bad for confusing types of radios. I had XG-75 or P5400 in mind.

You're still wrong. The P5400 doesn't do phase 2. Just stop.

 

[mikewazowski]

"Official" NAS methodology is aimed strictly at Motorola radios that don't offer a truly silent (No TX at all) capability in trunking except when using the TX DISABLE button/knob/switch feature. (Yes, that does work, and it has to because it's there for EMCON safety.

If you use that feature on a P25 trunking system, you will get a "NO COMMS" error and the radio won't receive anything.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Hmm...that's the first I've heard about that. Seems like kind of an odd choice. It's almost like M thinks there'd never be a need to be able to listen to instructions (on how to defuse a bomb, for example....) while operating in a strict EMCON environment.....positively bizarre when you stop and think about it.

 

[ma8007]

Would this radio do what I need?
Thanks

Harris MACOM P7100IP 806-896 Mhz P25 Digital Trunking EDACS Full Key -No ProScan | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Harris MACOM P7100IP 806-896 Mhz P25 Digital Trunking EDACS Full Key -No ProScan at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[ElroyJetson]

It will do P25 phase 1 trunking. But look around, you can find them for a lot less than 150 dollars these days.

You want option 39 which is P25 Phase 1 trunking. A P7100 won't do Phase II trunking.

 

[mikewazowski]

Hmm...that's the first I've heard about that. Seems like kind of an odd choice. It's almost like M thinks there'd never be a need to be able to listen to instructions (on how to defuse a bomb, for example....) while operating in a strict EMCON environment.....positively bizarre when you stop and think about it.

Nope, we've been through this before:

Using a Motorola P25 radio as a scanner.

No night on RR would be complete without a pointlessly heated debate over something that was settled long ago! 😂

forums.radioreference.com

A radio that can't affiliate or register with the system will not unmute for any traffic.

The EMCOM claim most likely came from this post Using a Motorola P25 radio as a scanner. which was from another member who heard it from an "MSI Engineer".

I think anyone defusing a bomb would likely want an intrinsically safe radio that can still function and not have to rely on pressing a button or turning a switch to stay safe.

 

[K2NEC]

Would this radio do what I need?
Thanks

Harris MACOM P7100IP 806-896 Mhz P25 Digital Trunking EDACS Full Key -No ProScan | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Harris MACOM P7100IP 806-896 Mhz P25 Digital Trunking EDACS Full Key -No ProScan at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Just make sure you can and know how to program it. Harris RPM comes with a learning curve

 

[GTR8000]

Hmm...that's the first I've heard about that.

Nope, we've been through this before:

Using a Motorola P25 radio as a scanner.

No night on RR would be complete without a pointlessly heated debate over something that was settled long ago! 😂

forums.radioreference.com

*sigh*

 

[ma8007]

Just make sure you can and know how to program it. Harris RPM comes with a learning curve

I use to own a Harris xg-100p.Have RPM 14..Would that be what I need for programming?

 

[ElroyJetson]

Yes, RPM 14 should be fine to work with a P7100 but you may have to update the P7100 firmware.


As for the other issue....so you're saying that someone with an authorized, logged in XTS5K running on the system could flip the concentric switch to TX INHIBIT which it had been programmed for, and at that point the radio becomes functionally dead, unable even to receive, until the switch is put back in its original position?

Not only do I not necessarily completely believe that, it doesn't even follow with experiments I conducted myself, years ago, with a system that was far away but barely in range. I tried the TX inhibit functionality (Risky business, I know, but hey, I was really far away, 70 miles as the crow flies..and it was after hours and I was set to the radio maintenance talkgroup at the bottom of the list of several...as deserted as it gets...) and it DID inhibit transmissions, but I was still able to receive traffic. However I was using an Astro Saber....maybe that's a different scenario.
It was that experiment that led me to figure out the elements of NAS, as a matter of fact. I wanted to listen...but in total safety. I found a way.

 

[DeoVindice]

Nope, we've been through this before:

Using a Motorola P25 radio as a scanner.

No night on RR would be complete without a pointlessly heated debate over something that was settled long ago! 😂

forums.radioreference.com

A radio that can't affiliate or register with the system will not unmute for any traffic.

The EMCOM claim most likely came from this post Using a Motorola P25 radio as a scanner. which was from another member who heard it from an "MSI Engineer".

I think anyone defusing a bomb would likely want an intrinsically safe radio that can still function and not have to rely on pressing a button or turning a switch to stay safe.

The issue with RF around electric blasting caps is RF-induced current initiating the cap, not spark generation. An IS radio won't help. That's a major reason the mining industry moved away from electric caps.

 

[GTR8000]

As for the other issue....so you're saying that someone with an authorized, logged in XTS5K running on the system could flip the concentric switch to TX INHIBIT which it had been programmed for, and at that point the radio becomes functionally dead, unable even to receive, until the switch is put back in its original position?

Not only do I not necessarily completely believe that, it doesn't even follow with experiments I conducted myself, years ago, with a system that was far away but barely in range. I tried the TX inhibit functionality (Risky business, I know, but hey, I was really far away, 70 miles as the crow flies..and it was after hours and I was set to the radio maintenance talkgroup at the bottom of the list of several...as deserted as it gets...) and it DID inhibit transmissions, but I was still able to receive traffic. However I was using an Astro Saber....maybe that's a different scenario.
It was that experiment that led me to figure out the elements of NAS, as a matter of fact. I wanted to listen...but in total safety. I found a way.

I'm going to be blunt...this is the problem with a lot of your posts. You have little to no experience with modern subscribers and modern systems. You constantly bring up experiences with antiquated equipment, and you often don't understand the context of the discussion.

We are talking about modern MSI radios on modern P25 systems. ASTRO 25 (XTL/XTS) and APX series subscribers, and how they function on a P25 system. We're not talking about radios from the late 80s/early 90s, and we're not talking about 4.x 3600 systems.

So to yet again answer the question in no uncertain terms: A modern MSI subscriber will not pass traffic from a P25 system when tuned to a talkgroup unless it first registers and affiliates (two distinct processes, by the way, as they are often conflated to mean the same thing).

 

[ElroyJetson]

I appreciate the directness. Not offended at all. I've been very upfront about the fact that I haven't been very active in the radio field for quite a few years. My last paid gig in the radio business ended in 2014 with the failure and absorption of the company I worked for by another company,
and I've always been on the sidelines when it comes to P25 as I haven't worked for a P25 systems vendor.

 

[APX8000]

@GTR8000 are you SURE it won't pass traffic ? LOL

 

[ElroyJetson]

OK then I'm going to ask the final questions just to be over and done with it, never to ask this again and to KNOW what I've been missing for some time.

It is established that TX inhibit also functions as RX inhibit in a P25 system. (Moto radio, Phase 1, Phase II, or both?)

But for "by the book" NAS scanning, DOES IT WORK ON PHASE I and on Phase II? in today's modernized systems? Yes or no?

I want to be totally clear on this. I don't want to be operating on out of date and currently inaccurate information.

I've been out of date. Bring me back into currency.