Commercial radio for listening to P25 trunking? NOT INTERESTED IN NAS.

[ElroyJetson]

Actually I'm going to offer an alternative point of view.

If you have a legal means of getting past the system key issue, say you hand crafted your own key using source information that is in the public domain, and you are licensed for your programming software, and your radio never transmits, then you can not be in violation of the FCC's restriction on unauthorized transmissions.

It's never illegal to MONITOR. That is set into law. It's illegal to transmit without authorization.

Yes there is grey area to contend with. But without a transmission occurring, the FCC has nothing to get you for. They are not the legal authority that deals with how you got the data into your radio. There may be other issues in play, but the FCC is only concerned with unlicensed emission of radio signals. And it's not like the FCC has a big enforcement staff or budget. They're not like the IRS, which is being expanded by 80,000 new auditors, because you know, you've got to pay your taxes on everything you sold on ebay or in our own classifieds forum, right?

For those who do NAS, what's the ID number you assign to your radio? Well, some system admins will scan for the IDs that are likely candidates, such as the highest possible ID numbers that would not be assigned normally. In the case of an EDACS system, that's 16382. So don't use that one. Don't use any that are even close to it.

I'd just pick a number at random among the large range of IDs you know are used. And never let anybody know what you picked.
I mean, really, if you're going to do this, you can't do it without picking an ID. Do it right, and nobody will ever even know which one you picked, and the radio will never announce itself AT ALL.

I say that, all things considered, using a Harris radio set to full RX and all TX disabled is better. The software costs more, but older versions have minimal to no access controls. While I prefer Motorola radios, I've just got to be realistic about it and say that a Harris radio offers some real advantages over a Motorola radio set to the NAS method.

And there's a question: With a Harris radio, if I set all options to TX disable/RX only, can the system admin still remote monitor, radio trace, stun, inhibit, disable, or kill that radio if he knows its programmed LID? Can the programmer of the radio prevent that from happening?

 

[K2NEC]

Actually I'm going to offer an alternative point of view.

If you have a legal means of getting past the system key issue, say you hand crafted your own key using source information that is in the public domain, and you are licensed for your programming software, and your radio never transmits, then you can not be in violation of the FCC's restriction on unauthorized transmissions.

It's never illegal to MONITOR. That is set into law. It's illegal to transmit without authorization.


And there's a question: With a Harris radio, if I set all options to TX disable/RX only, can the system admin still remote monitor, radio trace, stun, inhibit, disable, or kill that radio if he knows its programmed LID? Can the programmer of the radio prevent that from happening?

There was a thread a while back that I read this on, there is an FCC rule that states if you do not have authorization for a specific channel, you cannot have it in your radio to RX it. I know I won't be able to find the thread right now but maybe a little search will come up with it. If it's the case 99% of people would be breaking the rule. Enforceable? Probably not.

And yes, there are ways to prevent a stun, kill, inhibit if you know what you are doing.

 

[gatekeep]

Can the programmer of the radio prevent that from happening?

Short answer, yes. Long answer, there is a system LID that can be programmed into the radio, by default RPM automatically sets this to a reasonable default value (which coincidentally most systems use). This value is used by the radio to perform a source ID check against most commands, if they do not match the programmed system LID value, it will essentially ignore the commands.

 

[MTS2000des]

I use GenWatch more than I do Zonewatch. I just have GW customized to perfection and it gives me all the info I need at a glance. I can also remote into it via VPN from anywhere on my phone. Add in the JPS VIA app on my phone I can pretty much see and hear my system anywhere, anytime.

Same here. I set SMTP triggers for suspect radios/IDs/known clones. When I get a text, grab laptop, VPN in, handle business. Zone Watch kinda sucks though Historical Reports can get granular if you spend time with it. Lorrie from Genesis sent me a real nice ATIA parsing tool that will parse down a subscriber ID record to every single ISW/OSW and ideal for gathering evidence/info on suspect radios.

 

[prcguy]

So how does that work with a trunk tracking police scanner? Scanner people don't have authorization but are receiving everything.

There was a thread a while back that I read this on, there is an FCC rule that states if you do not have authorization for a specific channel, you cannot have it in your radio to RX it. I know I won't be able to find the thread right now but maybe a little search will come up with it. If it's the case 99% of people would be breaking the rule. Enforceable? Probably not.

And yes, there are ways to prevent a stun, kill, inhibit if you know what you are doing.

 

[K2NEC]

So how does that work with a trunk tracking police scanner? Scanner people don't have authorization but are receiving everything.

I think it specifically applied to radios because they had the means to transmit. Even though they could be set to RX only. I'll have to find the thread now because it included the specific FCC statute

 

[R8000]

Uninhibit it. That's how you fix that. How you do that -- well now, that is an entirely separate conversation.

Then you take the saved logs and turn it over to the office down the hallway for the start of a criminal investigation.

 

[APX8000]

I like to use ID 1. They'll never zap that one.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Find the ID of the Sheriff Himself's radio. Dupe that. No way they're going to inhibit THAT one! Just be sure you disable private calls....

 

[merlin]

Wow, wild ride guys! I applaud your commitment to support!

And while we are being perfectly clear, an XG100P with the latest firmware (XLPR06T02) or anything even close to current, programmed with a copy of RPM14 purchased from Harris does require a system key. I think a lot of people here overlook this fact…

-B

True, but there is a system key generator readily available that solves that issue. just enter the system ID and it produces a key file you enter when you start your codeplug. This works a bit the same for Motorola CPS also.
Don't confuse this key with anything encryption related.

 

[ElroyJetson]

I have to point out that since a lot of Motorola software is now zero cost, that is, free, for any registered user, then that simplifies the legal landscape a bit, too. You weren't using illegal software if you got it directly from the manufacturer for free.

The system key generator is a legal grey area, BUT if you check the batlabs archives you can find the data that lets you hand craft your own system key. It's a how to guide to calculate the simple data string that is the system key.

Plus, I know I've seen this...someone made a zip file of literally every possible system key. 0000 to FFFF. That had to have been generated by an automated script. Nobody's got time for doing that manually! That file may be something you can locate.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I like to use ID 1. They'll never zap that one.

Our EMA director's mobile code plug went to TG 1 on almost all channels, really had her and our tech confused because she got into the system but no one heard her no matter what channel her display showed.

 

[MTS2000des]

Our EMA director's mobile code plug went to TG 1 on almost all channels, really had her and our tech confused because she got into the system but no one heard her no matter what channel her display showed.

Sounds like the drag and drop bandit struck again.

 

[RayAir]

That part.
I heart GenWatch. Love my triggers with SMTP traps. Always fun to login, add bogus/suspect ID to PM, activate, login to RCM, inhibit...wait for thread to appear here with "my radio turns on then off. What did I do?"

SNMP.

 

[APX8000]

I can't even begin to tell you how many messed up legit codeplugs I've seen and some from some pretty large popular agencies.

 

[speedway_navigator]

When I was with Bearcom I stopped in at the LA office to pickup radios and repeaters to setup at the Rose bowl.
For some reason I did a test before I left and found out we had no TX from 2 repeaters. It turned out the portable CPS would allow any tone and the guy had transposed something like 167.9 to 176.9 which the repeaters barfed at.

He also had the same tone in 2 repeaters 75 kHz apart, I took over programming after that.

 

[ElroyJetson]

In all honesty once I had one of my scanning radios inhibited and then a gentleman from the Sheriff's Department made a visit to my workplace and quietly, "unofficially" informed me that if I had any radios programmed to the system, I'd better check them and take care of it.

What had happened is that we had an Orion installed in the company van at the radio shop I used to work at, and we had a contract to maintain the school bus radios in the neighboring county which was ALSO an EDACS county. And the bus radios were on the EDACS system.

We ONLY had the bus radio contract. And we were capable to maintain it, having properly licensed copies of RPM and the test equipment required to handle basic service. The school board even asked us to procure some additional radios for new buses, and they could be used radios, as they were on a budget. We procured and installed a stack of 500Ms, a type they had in most buses.

I got the job of making an interesting phone call: Calling to the main EDACS contractor for the county and asking them for LID assignments of the EDACS radios that were were contracted to install in the buses. Oddly, while I expected TS to HTF, the tech just said, "No problem. 11000 plus the 3 last digits of the bus ID number. So if it's bus no. 1932, then the LID is 11932. "

Now, I think some of you would know, and I know as well, that this was an improper contract. It's likely that in the main county contract, there was an exclusive vendor/maintainer clause. But the people in the school board/bus maintenance departments probably had never read that far into it, and just put out a bid for bus radio maintenance and my boss won it.

We also had a similar contract to maintain the VHF and UHF EMS radios and the console equipment connected to them, for hospitals in our own county. Which were also connected to EDACS radios, at least in part. Every hospital had at least four radios and two were EDACS Orions or M7100s in consoles, connected to desktop Telex and Zetron consoles. We had to touch those Orion/M7100 radios once or twice in order to find ways to idiotproof their operation. That's another story, but a fun one. Operator error. Operator trained. Operator stupid. Training does not take. Operator repeats error. We make a service call to literally press a button on the console. Bill hospital. Lather, rinse, repeat many times. Operator never learns or new operator replaces old operator, new operator makes same errors, needs training...the cycle never ends.
Two EDACS console radios, programmed identically, with identical talkgroup lists, should never be connected to the same console where the operator can set BOTH of them to the same talkgroup at once, resulting in a feedback squeal if the operator transmits on either. That's just begging for problems, and that problem was at every hospital unless the operator actually had a brain. Talk about a messed up codeplug...that was pretty much what that was. But this contract activity gave us a "legitimate reason" to monitor the county's EMS talkgroups, to listen for the operator error squeal. Not that it was ever an issue.

So, our van radio had an assigned legit ID for that county in support of the school bus activities, and we also programmed in our home county as well. Totally different system. With a different LID. I think in this case it was programmed for 16382, and it got caught in a sweep for unauthorized radios....or something. The deputy clearly told us that we weren't in any trouble, but that the radio was sending signals to the system, and please just take care of that. We were told to find some other LID to listen with. He pretty much gave us the blessing to continue to monitor as long as we don't transmit without authorization.

So after the deputy left, I checked and sure enough the van radio was inhibited. I reprogrammed it and shuffled the LID and all was well. (Programmed RX only on all talkgroups, with no login.)

No further trouble.

 

[K2NEC]

There was a thread a while back that I read this on, there is an FCC rule that states if you do not have authorization for a specific channel, you cannot have it in your radio to RX it. I know I won't be able to find the thread right now but maybe a little search will come up with it. If it's the case 99% of people would be breaking the rule. Enforceable? Probably not.

Why is the Harris XL200 so popular ?

Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression the newer firmware and RPM versions > Ver. 14 required a WACN (system) key to modify trunking parameters, hence the BK/Relm KNG series or a Unication have been consistently recommended for passive PI/PII TRS monitoring with a "commercial...

forums.radioreference.com

 

[speedway_navigator]

There was a thread a while back that I read this on, there is an FCC rule that states if you do not have authorization for a specific channel, you cannot have it in your radio to RX it.

90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for
which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized.

Federal Register :: Request Access

 

[ElroyJetson]

And if the radio never transmits that's a moot point. Besides...when programming trunking frequencies, the software asks me only for receive frequencies. I literally never program transmit frequencies in a trunking system. You don't do it in Motorola software, you don't do it in Harris software, and even in OBT (Other Band Trunking) you still don't, but you specify frequency offsets and bandplan data.