Disaster Preparations

MTS2000des

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I'm just questioning why the public safety radio techs are so down on the general public as ham radio operators. Even to the point of name calling.
Maybe because they are tired of hearing some (not all) hams talk smack about how some child with a CCR is all of a sudden a SME on public safety communications. They know everything because they can download CHIRP and program their Feng to kerchunk from DC to daylight and we're all morons for buying secure, robust, resilient and capable LMR systems that don't seem to be breaking down left and right.

I mean it's akin to the fry cook at McDonald's telling a Delta Airlines Airbus A330 training captain how to fly a plane.
Ham radio is a hobby not a lifesaving radio service. Sorry to pop the pimple but it is what it is.
 

vagrant

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I mean it's akin to the fry cook at McDonald's telling a Delta Airlines Airbus A330 training captain how to fly a plane.
You mean all those hours of using Microsoft Flight Simulator doesn't count? ;)

Anyways, amateur operators are reasonably suited ( depending on their skill set ) to pass coordinated traffic during their local public service events. If something happens, they contact the professionals. That is how amateurs can help the public.
 

buddrousa

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Untrained in the way and causing interference I was fulltime Fire Ems for over 40 years. If I did not ask you for help I do not need you in the way risking my crew and myself. I was also our Radio Tech and I am a Firm believer in Large Private Systems like the State Systems that keep want a bes out.
 

kb1fua

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Thought you guys would enjoy this...
The other day I had a local guy come over. He's a beginner prepper.
Everyone here in my area knows I'm a ham radio guy. He said he just bought a "ham radio", and wanted me to program it. I asked if he got his license when I was on vacation, and he said -
"no, but, with all that's going on in the world around us, I know that WTSHTF is right around the corner, and I'm going to want to be able to communicate, and find out what is all going on. I just want to have all the police, fire, ambulance, and ham repeaters in it." He hands me his newly acquired "ham" radio...its an older Bendix King VHF ht...A huge brick! I explained to him, that this was NOT a ham radio, it was VHF only, and I have no way of programming an Eprom...he told me he paid $200 for it...I said, you got took. Just because that radio looks like new, it isn't. It is very old.
I told him if you're going to continue to be a "prepper" you better learn things first...here's your first lesson! I also told him that him getting the local/county, and MSHP on any analog radio or scanner is out because they are digital. At first he thought I was giving him some crap. I showed him the MOSWIN information...he walked away pissed off...he then texted me a picture of a bunch of wiring, and cables with an old Motorola controller head for a Motrac, asked about "this radio". " You have no radio in that picture", I texted back...."that it just controls the power on/off, squelch, and volume. of the radio you don't have. and the radio is bigger than your fancy briefcase."
😎✌
 

mmckenna

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I said, you got took.

I've run across that once before.

I'm betting it'll go this way:
He'll keep buying random radios. I've found that some 'prepper' types aren't interested in the prepping as much as they are interested in acquiring stuff to fill some hole in their existence. There seems to be a lot of bragging that goes on in their circles. Always comparing their amount of stuff to each others, as some sort of one-upmanship. The idea that the guy with the most stuff will 'win'. In reality I've found that many of them don't know how to use most of the gear they have. He'll want the radio programmed, then it'll get put in their magic EMP proof box and never touched. He'll never know how to properly use it if the imaginary S ever does HTF.

I'm sure you haven't heard the last of this guy.
 

MTS2000des

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The prepper whackers are a funny crowd. There is even a local prepper shop that sells Bowelfengs by the dozen and gives classes on how to "use" them as if:

1- Any amateur radio infrastructure will survive a zombie invasion
2- Said infrastructure will be accessible with one of these road apple radios
3- Most legit hams IGNORE unauthorized transmissions
4- All public safety around here are 700/800 trunked, most are encrytpted
 

AK_SAR

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Preppers often say they want a radio to check in on the local situation after a disaster. Here is an example of why ad-hoc nets by untrained hams aren't such a great idea. In 2018 we had an M 7.1 earthquake just north of Anchorage. After the shaking stopped and I had checked that we were all safe and our home had suffered no serious damage, I turned on my radio and listened to the traffic on our most active local repeater.

First someone reported that "Vine Road near Wasilla is blocked!". The problem is that Vine Rd is fairly long. To his credit, whomever was acting as the impromptu net control tried to get more info, like exactly where it was blocked. The answer was "I don't know, I just heard it from a friend..." Not terribly useful info. (The Vine Rd collapse was one of the two images which were played incessantly ad nauseum on the national media.)
VineRd.jpg
Then another guy came on and said "The overpass on Minnesota Dr has collapsed and a car is trapped!" What sort of image does that conjur up in your mind? Maybe some poor schmuck crushed in his car under tons of concrete? A job for FD Heavy Rescue? Minnesota has several overpasses, but again when pressed for details, he just heard if from someone else. This was the other image that was played over and over again on TV. It turns out that the off-ramp to International Airport Rd had caved in, and a car was indeed trapped, but undamaged. I've been told it was a rental the guy was returning to the airport. He walked the mile to the airport, gave the keys to the rental company and told them where it was, and caught his flight.
Minnesota_cave_in.jpg
The most egregious thing I heard was someone reporting that "I just talked to my daughter, and she says the USGS says there will be another even larger quake, within the hour!" which is total BS. The USGS made no such prediction. This was the one time I keyed up and transmitted on this so-called net. I politely replied that this wasn't true. The USGS did make a probabilistic estimate of aftershocks (there will be many, for a long time, and some may be quite powerful), and that there is an extremely small but non zero probability that this might be a foreshock to a bigger quake (rare but it's been known to happen). They most definitely DID NOT predict a "larger quake within the hour".

The first takeaway message is that any information you get from an impromptu ad-hoc emergency net is at best likely to be incomplete and misleading, and possibly flat out wrong. The other takeaway is that if you do report something, be very careful that what you say is accurate and as complete as possible. Do not report stuff that "They Say...." or "I heard that..." Unless you actually have eyes on it and can provide an accurate description and location, don't report it. Disasters and other emergency situations are confusing and chaotic enough, without adding incomplete or totally bogus information to the problem.

One last point, from what I understand, for the most part our official emergency comms systems worked just fine during and after the earthquake. One friend at a VFD near Anchorage said they lost some comms very briefly (not sure of the details), and a State Trooper involved in emergency management commented that they had some trouble with cell networks being overloaded (not sure if he had First Net?). Our state ALMR (Alaska Land Mobile Radio) system stayed up and worked fine.
 
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MTS2000des

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This story articulates why whackers and the "when all else fails" crowd do more than just get in the way, they misinform and interfere with their zest and zeal do more harm then good. Whether it's the guy who gets on USFS and interferes with wildfire response, only getting negative attention from the chair of the FCC, to the long time ham who went around Colorado at ARES presentations bragging about his unauthorized trunking radios (which of course got him in trouble), to the local yo-yo clowns who called in a tornado that didn't exist to the local Atlanta NWS office and claims they "heard on Fire dispatch" (wonder why we encrypt?)...this whacker clown show needs to stop.

Enjoy ham radio. Gain real skill sets. Know what to do and when to do it. Leave the cosplay, the fake badges, bootleg radios making CopSounds™ and junk pail radios and whacker/prepper trash at home and on YouTube.
 

KevinC

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Above all else, make sure you are prepared at home. All this radio stuff is nice and cool, but you and your family come first. I've been through plenty of hurricanes and once in a lifetime floods but I got lax and the hurricane that hit us in July showed just how unprepared I was. All of that has now been rectified.

Old man wisdom...free of charge.
 

MUTNAV

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Wow... This has devolved a bit into "whacker whacking" :)

The OP just wanted to run an idea past people on using various ham bands and GMRS for disaster communications.

Admittedly, "disaster" communications can run anywhere from relaying contamination levels after a nuclear event, to what I think this guy was suggesting, which is more like, power is out in various parts of the region and I wonder what gas stations and pizza joints still have power, or to check in on friends and family, or find out what roads are open / closed (like with a CB on ch 19) (Stuff you don't get on MW or FM broadcast radio).

Thanks
Joel
 

AK_SAR

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Above all else, make sure you are prepared at home.
LOL, I have to confess that other than some broken knickknacks, and one tiny crack in the sheetrock, the biggest damage we had was the one big bookshelf in my office that crashed down. It was one I had never got around to anchoring to the wall! Good thing I wasn't sitting there, because it was big and heavy enough that it would have definitely hurt, and possibly seriously injured me if I had been under it when it crashed down.
Yes indeed, make sure your home is as ready as you can make it for whatever disasters are likely in your area!
 

AK9R

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"I don't know, I just heard it from a friend...
Often the answer in these situations is "I read it on [social media platform]". This is happening more and more and it's infuriating. We teach Skywarn severe weather spotters to report what they personally observe, but quite often what we get is a relay of what someone saw posted on Facebook, Twitter, Tictoc, or Instagram.
 

kb1fua

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I've run across that once before.

I'm betting it'll go this way:
He'll keep buying random radios. I've found that some 'prepper' types aren't interested in the prepping as much as they are interested in acquiring stuff to fill some hole in their existence. There seems to be a lot of bragging that goes on in their circles. Always comparing their amount of stuff to each others, as some sort of one-upmanship. The idea that the guy with the most stuff will 'win'. In reality I've found that many of them don't know how to use most of the gear they have. He'll want the radio programmed, then it'll get put in their magic EMP proof box and never touched. He'll never know how to properly use it if the imaginary S ever does HTF.

I'm sure you haven't heard the last of this guy.
oh, I'm sure...lmao...
 

kb1fua

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The prepper whackers are a funny crowd. There is even a local prepper shop that sells Bowelfengs by the dozen and gives classes on how to "use" them as if:

1- Any amateur radio infrastructure will survive a zombie invasion
2- Said infrastructure will be accessible with one of these road apple radios
3- Most legit hams IGNORE unauthorized transmissions
4- All public safety around here are 700/800 trunked, most are encrytpted
exactly!
 

mmckenna

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Wow... This has devolved a bit into "whacker whacking" :)

Always a fun subject. Actually, one of my favorite subjects. They bring it on themselves and they deserve it.

The OP just wanted to run an idea past people on using various ham bands and GMRS for disaster communications.

And I think we answered that. But as happens, discussions lead to more discussions and things sort of wander. Hopefully the discussion has been useful to some, and nixed the idea that ham radio operators can talk directly on public safety frequencies.
 

krokus

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Disasters and other emergency situations are confusing and chaotic enough, without adding incomplete or totally bogus information to the problem.
This type of misinformation can cause so many problems that it is a weapon in some cases. Even when done without nefarious intent, it can lead to serious problems. Look at what happened with The Superdome, after Katrina, as a prime example.
 

MTS2000des

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This type of misinformation can cause so many problems that it is a weapon in some cases. Even when done without nefarious intent, it can lead to serious problems. Look at what happened with The Superdome, after Katrina, as a prime example.
Which is why people should NOT repeat what they hear on scanners, or anywhere else. Unless one KNOWS IT TO BE FACT by FIRST PERSON knowledge, STFU.
 

MUTNAV

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Which is why people should NOT repeat what they hear on scanners, or anywhere else. Unless one KNOWS IT TO BE FACT by FIRST PERSON knowledge, STFU.
IMHO

Unless the intent is to start rumors, then the official agencies should probably get out their confirmed information as they get it, otherwise all bets are off with the idea of 'only repeat what you personally saw'.

I get the impression that government (and other) agencies tend to play "I've got a secret", to use the information at the most politically opportune time.
Information is valuable both as a weapon and economically.

There is also a tendency (or technique) to put out false ideas, then mock them to hide what is really going on.

For example, at one base I was at, the was a problem with E-coli in the water supply, which was making everyone use bottled water for everything, The commander came out and said that there was a rumor that a cow had pooped in the base well (No one that I had spoken with knew anything about this alleged rumor), the commander then stated that he looked at the well head, and there is no way a cow could have pooped in it, and it was ridiculous.

What WAS being circulated was that E-coli bacteria is usually from fecal matter, and it was in our water supply, which was completely true.

When the truth is hard to get, like the Maui fires, sometimes it's best to listen to what your neighbors are saying, and not the official line.

Baghdad Bob was NOT supposed to be a role model for public communication.

To support the idea of only repeating completely trustworthy information... Your reputation as a reliable source is valuable, and should be protected for when it is needed.

Just my 2¢
Thanks
Joel
 

MTS2000des

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Many gov's do a great job of disseminating information through tools like Nixle, PulsePoint, EverBridge, etc etc., and have PIOs and people assigned to put stuff out not just to inform, but to seek information. Some do not.

Third/fourth/fifth party information is as useless as middle school rumors. Ever play the game of telephone? None of that has a place in official response cues.

If hams or volunteer group wants to be an asset and not a liability, get trained, know what to do when in harm's way, and know what to say and what not. Words cannot be taken back anymore than bullets from a gun.
 
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