Disaster Preparations

[k6cpo]

Years ago in the 1970s local areas had CB Clubs in my area that tried to be like the old hams were and monitor CB Radio with groups that went by the name REACT but in todays world people do not have time for anybody but themselves.

REACT is still around, although not in the numbers they had during the height of the CB radio craze. Cell phones saw to that. With the "loss" of their mission of monitoring Ch 9 and assisting motorists, many REACT teams lost so many members they closed down. Others were smart enough to pivot to a new undertaking. The team in San Diego that at one time had in excess of 100 active members is now down to 20. They embraced amateur radio and are now actively engaged in public event communications. They provide communications for around 10-12 running, bicycling and Triathlon events annually. This is all done as volunteers with their own equipment and people. All they usually get are crew T-shirts from the event organizers.

As far as ham radio infrastructure is concerned, clubs should be more proactive about setting up off-grid power sources for repeaters. I live in a county of over 3 million population, with over 20 different amateur radio clubs, all of which have multiple active repeaters. Add to this privately owned repeaters and it gives extensive repeater coverage. Of all of those, however, I only know of one club that has two repeaters with off grid solar power. There are probably others, but I'm not aware of them. It's not a budget breaker to install solar power for a repeater with a decent LiFePo battery backup.

 

[krokus]

Hams can still have a role in large scale emergencies, when trained, practiced, and organized. (And invited by the agencies affected.) This would be to provide back up comms, when other systems are unusable. The likelihood decreases with more robust networks being installed by agencies/governments, but they are not indestructible.

For clarification: I am talking events like Katrina, or large earthquakes, where the infrastructure is notably damaged. Hams could be deployed to shelters, government facilities, etc, to relay information. But these events are rare, and the resilience of the infrastructure is improving.

 

[MTS2000des]

I can't recall the last time hams "provided back up comms" for any PSAPs/ECCs. It just isn't reality. If such a disaster wipes out part 22, part 90 and everything else, my money says most hams you know what would be in the dirt. A $30 Boaturd relying on infrastructure is just as venerable.

Again it is about the SKILL of the operator. Judging from the moronic postings on the internets by many "YouTube" hams, many can't even program frequencies in their $30 CCRs let alone understand how a standalone repeater works. Real skill comes with both experience and training, and I don't mean crash courses to memorize questions or watching YouTube videos.

 

[vagrant]

A club I belong to provides communications for various walks, runs, rides. These volunteers that often participate in these events have years of experience doing that. Still, it is like herding cats as some unexpectedly take it upon themselves to deploy, leave, or show up with no gear. Again, years of experience...herding cats.

Lately, they enjoy trying simplex every so often for a net. It is a slow process, but they are realizing their home/mobile/pedestrian systems are sub-par. I suggested that during a monthly meeting we could at least sweep and review their mobile setups, which are often used during the events. It fell on deaf ears...of the people who complain the volunteers have poor mobile systems. Herding cats. The repeater systems need....ahhh...I recommend changes, but movement is glacial. I offer my help as well, not just chatter.

Alternatively, there are two local guys that take care of their own linked systems with fantastic uptime where testing, tuning and alignment are constant concerns. They are friends and their linked systems are independent of each other providing for redundancy. I enjoy an Agilent 8935 that was a hand-me-down from one of them after upgrading to Rohde & Schwarz gear.

The difference between amateur and professional is significant.

 

[MUTNAV]

Maybe we should clarify.... an emergency vs a disaster. They are separate things.

IMHO An emergency is an immediate threat that requires immediate action.

A disaster tends to be more widespread and can result in systems failures.

There are other definitions of course.

Best example for our purposes is an emergency is a car accident with serious injuries.
Good case for Inreach Satcom, cheap and reliable almost anywhere


A disaster is power being knocked or intermittent throughout the northeast for 3 weeks.

Good case for C.B. and Ham HF-UHF, and FRS.GMRS for families to get together and everyone to find out where certain resources are available.

Looking at some REAL disasters, not made up EMP events that haven't happened yet.

I'm thinking Hurricane maria

Trying to communicate after the hurricane: “It's as if Puerto Rico doesn't exist”

With ham radios and spotty WiFi, Puerto Rico struggles to communicate after Hurricane Maria

www.theverge.com

and Alaska

When a Quake Shook Alaska, a Radio Reporter Led the Public Through the Devastating Crisis

In the hours after disaster struck Anchorage, an unexpected figure named Genie Chance came to the rescue

www.smithsonianmag.com

Hopefully these kinds of things are once in a lifetime events... Hopefully there is something to be learned from reading both articles completely.

But radio does have a place, I don't know how well it would work out today.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MTS2000des]

Again, it's not the medium as much as it is the skill of the person(s). AT&T technicians deployed a floating CRD during a recent hurricane in Florida, and turned it up so persons could use WiFi calling and texting to contact families (carrier agnostic too). The SKILL and DEDICATION of these AT&T folks provided communications relief during the hours after the storm as much as hams did if not more. Not downplaying it, but the air of whackerism always rears it's ugly head.

PEOPLE need to be more prepared by gaining SKILL SETS more so than equipment hoarding, flashing lights, orange vests, or caches of cheap junk radios that rely on someone else' infrastructure to function.

 

[rescuecomm]

All hail the multi-million dollar public safety systems built out by the Federal and State tooth fairy money. Then trash talk everyone else who pay for their own equipment.

 

[MTS2000des]

As if some cobbled together by amateur hobbyists slipshod equipment fares any better when an F5 tornado or CAT 5 hurricane wipes it off the Earth like a pencil eraser does to paper.

Again, it's people with skills that save each other not fancy equipment or cosplay.

I recall the Joplin tornado. Many ham radio Randy rescues like to point out that "ham radio was used to notify the EOC" of the destruction at the hospital in Joplin that took a direct hit.

While true, it should be noted it wasn't even a licensed ham who knew how to deploy and use the equipment but a hospital employee who had attended an in-service training on the equipment. No time to wait for cosplayers and grouchy old men to show up and jockey a radio when one did it themselves. OMG. Someone call the FCC!

People with actual skills knew what do do when it harms way. No red lights, illicitly programmed radios, or badges were required.

 

[mmckenna]

All hail the multi-million dollar public safety systems built out by the Federal and State tooth fairy money.

The days of a single channel simplex system for the local PD or Fire are long gone. With multiband radios, a book full of interop channels, satellite radios, phones, Part 90 HF resources, there's little left to chance anymore. Pretty difficult to wipe out all communications for an agency now. Usually when that happens, it's not a technology problem, it's a user training issue.

Then trash talk everyone else who pay for their own equipment.

If you looked closely, you'd see that most of us are hams, and have been for a very long time. No one is trash talking hams with decent equipment. We do trash talk those with an $18 CCR that think they've cracked the code to worldwide communications.

Several times in this thread, it's been mentioned that hams with decent equipment and performing as a trained team have their place in disasters. One guy with a Baofeng does not.

 

[rescuecomm]

You are posting from a position in an agency that spends a lot of money for their communications and for personnel to maintain it. You also are well aware that getting an amateur radio license doesn't require an electrical engineering degree. The average 2020 ham doesn't have and isn't required to have those skills. You know this but why do keep beating on it?

Perhaps you should post the funds spent by your agency for the last 25 years for the towers and radio gear. No to mention training. In my state, it's hundreds of millions of dollars for the PAL800 and the various connected local systems. Your statements about not needing amateur help for public safety is very true. If an agency spent $300 million on a state radio system that didn't work, then somebody needs to to be held accountable.

 

[rescuecomm]

Sorry McK, but MTS2K trolls all hams if you read his posts.

 

[MTS2000des]

You are posting from a position in an agency that spends a lot of money for their communications and for personnel to maintain it. You also are well aware that getting an amateur radio license doesn't require an electrical engineering degree. The average 2020 ham doesn't have and isn't required to have those skills. You know this but why do keep beating on it?

Perhaps you should post the funds spent by your agency for the last 25 years for the towers and radio gear. No to mention training. In my state, it's hundreds of millions of dollars for the PAL800 and the various connected local systems. Your statements about not needing amateur help for public safety is very true. If an agency spent $300 million on a state radio system that didn't work, then somebody needs to to be held accountable.

Stop putting words in my mouth,

One: the funds spent by my agency are a matter of public record. It's less than $30 million for new 15 site system and a 10-year SUA since we went live 12/2015, and we replaced an analog Smartnet system that went live when GHW Bush was President and Reagan left office and ran that 9 site system over three decades, so I'd say taxpayers got their money out of it.

What I am tired of as a ham of 40 years is this nonsense that ham radio saves lives. It doesn't. 40 years ago things were different. Agencies didn't have COM-Ts, COM-Ls. trunking systems were in their infancy, and the skill set of most PS agencies were a bit less.

Your blanket statement about "2020 hams not having skills" is exactly the problem. Hams want to talk the talk, but not walk the walk. So get the skills or get packing. Or at least stop with the whackerism. It's as simple as that.

 

[mmckenna]

You are posting from a position in an agency that spends a lot of money for their communications and for personnel to maintain it. You also are well aware that getting an amateur radio license doesn't require an electrical engineering degree. The average 2020 ham doesn't have and isn't required to have those skills. You know this but why do keep beating on it?

Not beating on it, but I can see why you might think that.
Stating it for those that expect amateur radio to be an emergency radio service. It's not. It takes professionals, a lot of training, a lot of real world experience. YouTube videos, ARRL articles and the like don't make up for that.

Again, hobby radio services can have their place. No one is shutting them out. However, in my 27 years here at my current employer, and including a few disasters, we've never needed anyone to show up and take over communications for us. I'm fortunate.

Perhaps you should post the funds spent by your agency for the last 25 years for the towers and radio gear. No to mention training. In my state, it's hundreds of millions of dollars for the PAL800 and the various connected local systems. Your statements about not needing amateur help for public safety is very true. If an agency spent $300 million on a state radio system that didn't work, then somebody needs to to be held accountable.

We don't spend a lot, and traditionally haven't. We're a small agency and run things pretty lean.
Taxpayer funds or not, NIFOG gives us access to a lot of simplex channels we can use. We're not totally reliant on a repeater or trunked system.
Plus, we have access to adjacent city and county radio systems if we need it. Just like how we can roll our 911 calls to the PSAP in our County.

The days of a single point of failure completing crippling a public safety agency are mostly gone.

 

[mmckenna]

Sorry McK, but MTS2K trolls all hams if you read his posts.

You may not agree with what he says, or how he says it, but there's a lot of truth in his snark.

Honestly, many of us that work in the industry started off as hams, CB, scanner, short wave, etc. We do get it. We just get exposed to a lot of stuff that the hobbyists do not. We try to share that so there's useful information out there.

Again, hobby radio has it's place. Ham, CB, FRS, GMRS, MURS, heck even a guy with a cell phone can all fill a role. Just be realistic about what the role is and how it needs to be filled. Clubs can train and build their skills. That's much more useful than "random dude with a radio" approach.

 

[sloop]

After reading the replies to this post I must admit the "when all else fails, amateur radio" may have been true at one time, but not necessarily today with all of the options for communications' that are available today. Even in a true 'life or death' emergency help is still minutes (or longer) away. If one truly desires to be prepared to help they need to get real training, not you tube opinions. I am fully retired from law enforcement, Fire service, EMT, and HazMat and have been trained in each. The best training that I have found for the average person that is truly useful in emergencies (without the extensive training that I have had) is in CERT (Community Emergency Response Team). This is typically three days (8 hour days) of book and practical training that everyone can use while waiting for professional help to arrive.

 

[mmckenna]

The best training that I have found for the average person that is truly useful in emergencies (without the extensive training that I have had) is in CERT (Community Emergency Response Team). This is typically three days (8 hour days) of book and practical training that everyone can use while waiting for professional help to arrive.

That's an excellent point, and I know it's been brought up in other posts.

I often see this as the "tool box" issue:

If the only tool in the tool box is a radio, then every issue starts to look like a communications issue. Not very helpful.

The days of needing a dedicated radio operator are mostly gone. Even Part 90 HF can be done easily by minimally trained people. We have two HF fly kits here. I can train a person to set up and operate those pretty easily. No ham license required. ALE makes getting ahold of the state EOC about as easy as dialing a phone.

Having more tools in the tool box makes an individual much more useful. CERT is a great example. Radios used in support of a mission. That mission being search and rescue, first aid, etc. They don't need a dedicated person who -just- talks on the radio to follow them around. My dad was on his local CERT team for years. He was a ham before he joined, and they used their radios as part of their operations, however they also sometimes were permitted to use agency radios as required. Being a ham was not a requirement for joining CERT, but it was a welcome additional 'tool' to have.

I've always enjoyed seeing the ham clubs that embrace this. Great to have amateur radio as a skill. Now add some more skills. First Aid training. Basic search and rescue skills. Administrative support skills. Heck, even having someone that can keep a pot of coffee on gets to be really important.

I think where some of the challenges start is when hobbyists want to get involved, but -only- want to be a radio operator. Not much call for that anymore. Diversify, add more skills, make yourself into a multi-tool.

 

[MUTNAV]

After reading the replies to this post I must admit the "when all else fails, amateur radio" may have been true at one time, but not necessarily today with all of the options for communications' that are available today. Even in a true 'life or death' emergency help is still minutes (or longer) away. If one truly desires to be prepared to help they need to get real training, not you tube opinions. I am fully retired from law enforcement, Fire service, EMT, and HazMat and have been trained in each. The best training that I have found for the average person that is truly useful in emergencies (without the extensive training that I have had) is in CERT (Community Emergency Response Team). This is typically three days (8 hour days) of book and practical training that everyone can use while waiting for professional help to arrive.

I have to agree to a point, and disagree at the same time.

The "When all else fails" probably does still exist, BUT, it takes a LOT to make all else fail.

As individuals, the CERT thing is one way to go. Others that may be more appropriate for "individuals", is to make sure that they are:

Healthy (everyone getting enough (appropriate) exercise?)

First aid training?

Know how to turn power, gas, and water off to a house?

Everyone have their Family communications plan filled out and talked about with family?

It'll take a lot to take out comm systems to the point ham radio is the last resort. But, the little Emergencies - Disasters seem to be happening all of the time, and could really use some people that know what they are doing to help out.


Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

That's an excellent point, and I know it's been brought up in other posts.

I often see this as the "tool box" issue:

If the only tool in the tool box is a radio, then every issue starts to look like a communications issue. Not very helpful.

The days of needing a dedicated radio operator are mostly gone. Even Part 90 HF can be done easily by minimally trained people. We have two HF fly kits here. I can train a person to set up and operate those pretty easily. No ham license required. ALE makes getting ahold of the state EOC about as easy as dialing a phone.

Having more tools in the tool box makes an individual much more useful. CERT is a great example. Radios used in support of a mission. That mission being search and rescue, first aid, etc. They don't need a dedicated person who -just- talks on the radio to follow them around. My dad was on his local CERT team for years. He was a ham before he joined, and they used their radios as part of their operations, however they also sometimes were permitted to use agency radios as required. Being a ham was not a requirement for joining CERT, but it was a welcome additional 'tool' to have.

I've always enjoyed seeing the ham clubs that embrace this. Great to have amateur radio as a skill. Now add some more skills. First Aid training. Basic search and rescue skills. Administrative support skills. Heck, even having someone that can keep a pot of coffee on gets to be really important.

I think where some of the challenges start is when hobbyists want to get involved, but -only- want to be a radio operator. Not much call for that anymore. Diversify, add more skills, make yourself into a multi-tool.

Great minds think alike.

Thanks
Joel

 

[buddrousa]

@rescuecomm
Spend the money out of your own pocket GOTO COLLEGE get your EMT-A join a CERT Team follow their SOPS and KNOW YOUR ROLL.

 

[rescuecomm]

Been there and done that. Volunteer rescue squad member for 25 years. Everything from vehicle extricate to high angle rope rescue. I'm just questioning why the public safety radio techs are so down on the general public as ham radio operators. Even to the point of name calling.