EMP immunity

[Token]

Hi Joel... as Lauri and AK9R pointed out all transformers would be out of commission, I'm convinced now, no matter how old the car is, it's not going to run LOL.

All transformers will not be out of commission. Many transformers attached to the power grid will be, but think about the size of the capture area feeding those transformers. The power lines will induce large currents on the transformers and related hardware.

Tube type radios and points type vehicles are indeed more EMP resistant than modern solid state and computer controlled, that does not mean they are EMP proof.

EMP testing has been done, and there are some pretty good papers on specific results and anticipated energy levels.

Looking at past examples, Joe 157 (Test no 184) was a specific Soviet test of EMP potential over Kazakhstan. A 300 kT weapon was detonated 180 miles above the test range. It caused EMP damage over a wide area, to telephone systems and power systems ranging 1000 km. However, while some were indeed damaged, every vehicle in the footprint was not damaged, nor was every radio. A military radar 600 km from the center point was damaged while another example of the same model at 400 km was not.

EMP is a very real threat, but it is not the all electronics ending bogy monster some take it to be.

A very real problem is the recovery time. For example, the transformers that would be damaged in such an event could take years to replace. There are not spares ready to go and replace half the transformers in the US. They would have to be built as needed, with priority given to restoration of power to some areas over others. In the event of a single device tailored EMP attack, some areas of the US might see 5 or 10 years before regular power service would resume.

T!

 

[MUTNAV]

There are points of agreement and disagreement.

I'm under the impression that tube radios, and points on cars are a point of susceptibility, tests done on cars of 91 (or 96?) vintage showed the vast majority would continue to operate, or operate after a reset, tests on prc-77 radios vs prc-25 radios showed the transistor version survived EMP tests while the tube type didn't.

I'm sorry to harp on the PRC-77 vs -25, but I don't have much information on other radios that were officially tested.

The "word" also was H.T.s would be fine if they were off.

Also most of the energy in an EMP is below 100 MHz.

If I remember right, the large power transformer situation was that there are something like 12 very large transformers around the U.S., each custom built and take about 2 years to build, and only built overseas. It was also anticipated that after 6 months of no power (for everyone in a large lay-down), the grid would NEVER come back, and there would be a 80% to 90% death rate after a year of two.

But . . .
In my case at least, I'm looking at the things that I MIGHT survive, and be able to help others with, on the other hand there is also the possibility of having to prepare for NOTHING happening,

Peace could break out and investing in a positive future is important, as it turns out, there is a possibility that the two different types of future have a degree of overlap in reasonable things to do.... ( Like being an E.R. nurse may be helpful in an emergency, as well as provide decent income if nothing happens, both possible futures are covered a little).

ok... Rant off///

For my purposes H.T.'s would be helpful (gathering family), and MW/HF for news only. EMP protection for them would involve having the equipment off and disconnected, spare antennas for MW/HF (like many of us already have) would be useful)) IMHO. If I was really concerned, the spare MW/HF equipment would be kept in a sealed all metal trash can.

Seem reasonable / feasible for those mostly survivable events?

Thanks
Joel

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

.

Those are good points Joel .

I think that people in their eagerness to survive 'the pulse' overlook one very important variable--- Psychology.
I go back to my original font of all things wisdom on nuclear war--- Dr. Strangelove...


"But look here doctor, wouldn't this nucleus of survivors be so grief-stricken and anguished that they'd, well, envy the dead and not want to go on living? "

Its all nice and an academic exercise to sit and discuss the degree of vehicle ignition systems, et. al. surviv-ability, in the comfort of an intact world- but the consequences of a thermonuclear war are so unimaginable that, me personally,- I just smile, turns my head and look away.

For instance-- there are few living today that have ever seen an actual "H" bomb detonation. I am talking hydrogen bombs-- the big ones -like Shot Ivy/Mike on Enewetok Atoll in the Marshall islands. This 'test' vapourized islands and left huge holes in the Pacific Ocean. This was, of course, before my time - but I have flown over that part of the atoll enough times to be firmly impressed on what H-bombs can do. I have talked with some of the old scientists that were present at these tests and their comments are sublime in their sciences, but strongly, almost religious- in respectful reverence for this terrible terrible force.

Don't deceive yourselves-- an exchange of thermonuclear weapons will wipe out all civilistion worldwide- it would certainly plunge the United States-- what is left of it, into a Stone Age. Do not expect any surviving entity to come to our rescue--- no air drop of humanitarian aid, no help from anyone- for after all, we are the saviors of the world and when we are gone, we were all that ever was.




Shot Ivy/Mike, Enewotok Atoll , 1952


Lauri

_______________________________________________________________________________
.
More information ?--

"Mike" Device is Tested

The first fusion bomb was tested by the United States in Operation Ivy on November 1, 1952, on Elugelab Island in the Enewatak Atoll of the Marshall Islands. Scientists had to work faster and harder in order the meet the short deadline to complete the weapon, but their work paid off when "Mike"...

www.atomicarchive.com

.

 

[trentbob]

Makes me think, assuming the Earth has been around "forever"... could this cycle have already happened at some point? Maybe even more than once?

Some theorists feel that the equator area was once lush and green, now in some parts of the world it's just covered in silicon dioxide in the form of quartz.

There's some food for thought.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

An interesting thought---- Among the star gazing fraternity I have had the pleasure (?) of contemplating our existence in the universe is that thread.

But how to prove it ?

Another, my favorite- is that advanced civilisations are pre-order'd to destroy themselves as they become too technically far gone to not blow themselves up. There may be some law of the universe that say the lifetime of any advanced civilisation is X-number of years --- then 'boom."
All of us on these Ape infested planets just can't help it.

This is why we don't hear from other galaxies--- they exist/existed briefly while they had the communications technology and the did themselves in. A thousand light years away?....but a scintilla of intelligence in a star cluster---and 'zap !--- gone.

.....no wonder we don't hear anything.

A universal law of nature, like gravity or the speed of light ?


Lauri

 

[wa88it]

alas as in the 'tale' of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, thought to be located under or adjacent to the shallow waters south of Al-Lisān, a former peninsula in the central part of the Dead Sea in Israel, where Lot's wife turned to a pillar of "salt" [sidebar: cremation of a prepared corpse occurs at 1.4K >1.8K degrees over a 2.5 hours period.]

hiroshima a direct hit, destroyed the majority of the city initially 70K souls and by the end of the year between 90K and 166K souls [no explanation explain the vast difference in number] died as a result of the blast and its residual effects. The radiation in Hiroshima and Nagasaki today is on a par with the extremely low levels of background radiation (natural radioactivity) present anywhere on Earth. It has no effect on human bodies.

.
​

Chernobyl is believed to be uninhabitable for 20K years.

Fukushima is believed to uninhabitable for 100 years. [incident caused by poor facility design and the main issue caused by a shallow earthquake 36 miles away which moved the island 8 feet, from the nuclear installation.]

 

[trentbob]

An interesting thought---- Among the star gazing fraternity I have had the pleasure (?) of contemplating our existence in the universe is that thread.

But how to prove it ?

Another, my favorite- is that advanced civilisations are pre-order'd to destroy themselves as they become too technically far gone to not blow themselves up. There may be some law of the universe that say the lifetime of any advanced civilisation is X-number of years --- then 'boom."
All of us on these Ape infested planets just can't help it.

This is why we don't hear from other galaxies--- they exist/existed briefly while they had the communications technology and the did themselves in. A thousand light years away?....but a scintilla of intelligence in a star cluster---and 'zap !--- gone.

.....no wonder we don't hear anything.

A universal law of nature, like gravity or the speed of light ?


Lauri

View attachment 123050

alas as in the 'tale' of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, thought to be located under or adjacent to the shallow waters south of Al-Lisān, a former peninsula in the central part of the Dead Sea in Israel, where Lot's wife turned to a pillar of "salt" [sidebar: cremation of a prepared corpse occurs at 1.4K >1.8K degrees over a 2.5 hours period.]

hiroshima a direct hit, destroyed the majority of the city initially 70K souls and by the end of the year between 90K and 166K souls [no explanation explain the vast difference in number] died as a result of the blast and its residual effects. The radiation in Hiroshima and Nagasaki today is on a par with the extremely low levels of background radiation (natural radioactivity) present anywhere on Earth. It has no effect on human bodies.

. View attachment 123053
​

Chernobyl is believed to be uninhabitable for 20K years.

Fukushima is believed to uninhabitable for 100 years. [incident caused by poor facility design and the main issue caused by a shallow earthquake 36 miles away which moved the island 8 feet, from the nuclear installation.]

 

[Token]

Don't deceive yourselves-- an exchange of thermonuclear weapons will wipe out all civilistion worldwide- it would certainly plunge the United States-- what is left of it, into a Stone Age. Do not expect any surviving entity to come to our rescue--- no air drop of humanitarian aid, no help from anyone- for after all, we are the saviors of the world and when we are gone, we were all that ever was.

"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
A. Einstein, 1949 (but probably not an Einstein original)

T!

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

snip

No matter what else, never run out of bullets..............

Lauri

View attachment 122935

So I can't "double tap"?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

snip

Considering resource constraints, radios may not be the top tool to protect, or it could be, depending on the individuals situation.

Thanks
Joel

Water,, Mandrake, Water....

 

[trentbob]

We could be closer to the truth than we think... who is really left thinking about it this openly, amongst who the most, intelligent people, who are left to talk about this, other than evil lying, political hacks?

 

[MUTNAV]

Makes me think, assuming the Earth has been around "forever"... could this cycle have already happened at some point? Maybe even more than once?

Some theorists feel that the equator area was once lush and green, now in some parts of the world it's just covered in silicon dioxide in the form of quartz.

There's some food for thought.

I've thought about that before also.... if "civilization" has been around substantially for about 15,000 years, and the earth has been around for one million (lets just say), the cycle could have repeated itself a lot of times.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

alas as in the 'tale' of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, thought to be located under or adjacent to the shallow waters south of Al-Lisān, a former peninsula in the central part of the Dead Sea in Israel, where Lot's wife turned to a pillar of "salt" [sidebar: cremation of a prepared corpse occurs at 1.4K >1.8K degrees over a 2.5 hours period.]

hiroshima a direct hit, destroyed the majority of the city initially 70K souls and by the end of the year between 90K and 166K souls [no explanation explain the vast difference in number] died as a result of the blast and its residual effects. The radiation in Hiroshima and Nagasaki today is on a par with the extremely low levels of background radiation (natural radioactivity) present anywhere on Earth. It has no effect on human bodies.

. View attachment 123053
​

Chernobyl is believed to be uninhabitable for 20K years.

Fukushima is believed to uninhabitable for 100 years. [incident caused by poor facility design and the main issue caused by a shallow earthquake 36 miles away which moved the island 8 feet, from the nuclear installation.]

If I remember right, there were survivors at ground zero of Hiroshima, in an underground library (I think of a church).

The firebombing of Japanese cities killed more people than the nukes. Which will happen when your houses are made of light wood and paper (stereotyping here) which is actually a pretty good idea, think of how easy it would be to replace houses in Florida after a hurricane if they were made a little more replaceable.

"When considering the size of the forces involved, using nukes just shortened everything, raids involving
100s of bombers, were done with just one.

On the night of March 9, 1945, U.S. warplanes launch a new bombing offensive against Japan, dropping 2,000 tons of incendiary bombs on Tokyo over the course of the next 48 hours. Almost 16 square miles in and around the Japanese capital were incinerated, and between 80,000 and 130,000 Japanese civilians were killed in the worst single firestorm in recorded history."

Thanks
Joel

 

[trentbob]

I've thought about that before also.... if "civilization" has been around substantially for about 15,000 years, and the earth has been around for one million (lets just say), the cycle could have repeated itself a lot of times.

Thanks
Joel

You're kind of on the money Joel but I think you missed my point. We would not repeat this in that time period,
that would be a blink of the eye. Try to think in terms of billions and billions and billions of years. .

Maybe my thinking is getting out of this league here. But think about it in terms of the Earth within the universe with all the other life-sustaining entities having been around for I don't know oh, I guess the best way to say it would be... forever... And that would be in reference to and understood to be... Forever.

 

[wa88it]

You're kind of on the money Joel but I think you missed my point. We would not repeat this in that time period,
that would be a blink of the eye. Try to think in terms of billions and billions and billions of years. .

Maybe my thinking is getting out of this league here. But think about it in terms of the Earth within the universe with all the other life-sustaining entities having been around for I don't know oh, I guess the best way to say it would be... forever... And that would be in reference to and understood to be... Forever.

food for thought...
civilizations which have just disappeared...
*The Maya. ...
*Indus Valley Civilization. ...
*Easter Island. ...
*Catalhöyük. ...
*Cahokia. ...
*Göbekli Tepe. ...
*Angkor. ...
*The Turquoise Mountain...
*Niya...
*Nabta Playa...

10 Civilizations That Disappeared Under Mysterious Circumstances

For almost as long as we've had civilization, we've lost it. There are records going back hundreds of years of explorers discovering huge temples

gizmodo.com

just something to think about those who have walked this planet eons past...disappearing w/o a trace and no history what caused their demise

a further thought ~ Indigenous Australians are the most ancient continuous civilisation on Earth. First migrating from Africa between 51,000 and 72,000 years ago (earlier than the ancestors of present-day Eurasians), Indigenous Australians have lived in Australia since.

 

[Token]

Makes me think, assuming the Earth has been around "forever"... could this cycle have already happened at some point? Maybe even more than once?

Some theorists feel that the equator area was once lush and green, now in some parts of the world it's just covered in silicon dioxide in the form of quartz.

There's some food for thought.

If by "this cycle" you mean a civilization rising to knowledge and an advanced technical state, and then nuking themselves back to the stone ages, and humanity starting over, then the answer is no. To be sure, it is possible that past civilizations have risen to a somewhat advanced state, and then disappeared, without leaving a record, I consider that a given. But, none ever made it to truly modern technologies, electricity, synthetic materials, nuclear power, etc. Such a civilization would not have been local or regional, it would have been world wide, and undeniable signs of its existence would have been found.

No civilization that has harnessed nuclear power has ever been present on Earth before. That can be said with some reasonable certainty because there are a number of elements caused in nuclear fission that are not readily found in nature. There are 24 known synthetic elements. There are several more elements that do occur in nature, but in such low levels that any concentration of them would be a good indicator of past technologies. More importantly, there are some isotopes of all of these elements that only occur in the lab or as the result of man made technologies. Since some of these synthetic or unlikely elements or isotopes have extremely long half lives (for example, two different synthetic isotopes of Technetium have half lives of 4.2 million years, and Curium 247 has a half life of 15.6 million years) any past use of the associated technologies, going back to the Precambrian, would almost certainly still be detectable.

T!

 

[k7ng]

I was privileged to work for a gentleman who was present at the 'IVY MIKE" test... well, not AT the explosion, but was present at the atoll, 50 miles away. He was one of the most even-tempered, unexcitable people I ever met but he got a little wound up talking about what he saw and felt at the event. We managed to have a brief chat about EMP once and he pointed out that EMP is not simply a point-source event, but the extent of damage depends on many factors - so it isn't just "if you don't see the flash, you'll be OK". How the actual EM pulse is generated is a fascinating physics discussion.

Read the findings and reports concerning 'STARFISH PRIME' and remember when that occurred, there weren't any electronic ignitions or computer-controlled vehicles, nor computerized flight-management systems on large aircraft, and at least half of the communications equipment in use then was based on vacuum tube technology. In these days the electrical grid WOULD be damaged beyond rapid repair... I'd be more inclined to think about a generation to restore it, assuming there were people and assets to do so.

We DO have the ability to destroy ourselves, and it could be that the ones who meet their end from a big flash might be the lucky ones. I'm not the first to say that, either.

 

[trentbob]

If by "this cycle" you mean a civilization rising to knowledge and an advanced technical state, and then nuking themselves back to the stone ages, and humanity starting over, then the answer is no. To be sure, it is possible that past civilizations have risen to a somewhat advanced state, and then disappeared, without leaving a record, I consider that a given. But, none ever made it to truly modern technologies, electricity, synthetic materials, nuclear power, etc. Such a civilization would not have been local or regional, it would have been world wide, and undeniable signs of its existence would have been found.

No civilization that has harnessed nuclear power has ever been present on Earth before. That can be said with some reasonable certainty because there are a number of elements caused in nuclear fission that are not readily found in nature. There are 24 known synthetic elements. There are several more elements that do occur in nature, but in such low levels that any concentration of them would be a good indicator of past technologies. More importantly, there are some isotopes of all of these elements that only occur in the lab or as the result of man made technologies. Since some of these synthetic or unlikely elements or isotopes have extremely long half lives (for example, two different synthetic isotopes of Technetium have half lives of 4.2 million years, and Curium 247 has a half life of 15.6 million years) any past use of the associated technologies, going back to the Precambrian, would almost certainly still be detectable.

T!

Yep that's what I was implying and it is just basically food for thought, it's something I have thought about before, that there were indeed civilizations on Earth that had advanced technology and that there may have been a nuclear war, if you would.

A wild thought but an interesting idea, I also thought that might account for many mysteries that are simply unexplainable with history that we do know.

I tend to think that Earth has been around a lot longer than we think it has. Millions of years is one thing, billions of years is another.

Your scientific explanation that this is not plausible makes sense. I'm still referring to a much longer time frame here and I wonder if these scientific explanations would still be valid after so much time...

Of course we can't be sure that there wasn't some external help either. Such a civilization would be global, and there would be some evidence, doesn't mean we haven't found it yet.

I've always been enthralled with Egypt and the pyramids and what exactly was their purpose... I think we only know a fraction of what that's all about and of course now we have found pyramids all over the world that I understand are symmetrically placed? I have no doubt we haven't discovered them all or they are just covered up and hidden forever after so much time.

Thanks for your very knowledgeable reply!

 

[wa88it]

uh, have 'they' proved the planet is actually round or flat like some still believe ~~ not me mind you but something i have about...ya that's it i have read about it being round...ask me as that's my story and i'm sticking to it!!!

of course the continents being originally one blob which drifted apart after eons is a myth as well...huh!!!

 

[trentbob]

uh, have 'they' proved the planet is actually round or flat like some still believe ~~ not me mind you but something i have about...ya that's it i have read about it being round...ask me as that's my story and i'm sticking to it!!!

of course the continents being originally one blob which drifted apart after eons is a myth as well...huh!!!

What? Huh? You're a smart guy Jack... Excellent post, you make your point much clearer than I do and I tend to ramble on. I believe in the Space Program and think we orbited Earth and landed on the moon decades ago.

I think you might glean something from what I'm saying. My regards. Bob.