Everything NYPD encryption.

[ff026]

So, other than demanding 100% full encryption with no provisions for press availability and public availability to receive precinct radio dispatch communications, do you have any solutions for a compromise?

See below

CAD streaming is one option, like the CHP does. CHP Traffic
It's what the news agencies use out here in California for getting traffic/accident info. Everyone has access to it. It's pretty much real time. Easy to censor protected info. Available to anyone with a computer/smartphone/etc.

This is the answer.

 

[richee2000]

See below

This is the answer.

Thank you for this suggestion.

While this is not the type of solution we are looking for, (nothing beats the total transparency of actual radio communications) it is an interesting suggestion and certainly a compromise.....

 

[k2hz]

CAD streaming is one option, like the CHP does. CHP Traffic
It's what the news agencies use out here in California for getting traffic/accident info. Everyone has access to it. It's pretty much real time. Easy to censor protected info. Available to anyone with a computer/smartphone/etc.

While not directly related to the NYPD situation, many agencies now primarily dispatch jobs via MDT. Fire in my area is dispatching and status updates via the Bryx smartphone app. Cellphones are used for much activity that used to be in the radio. So, many incidents may never be heard on the radio.

Much of he ability to be aware of an incident from radio monitoring has been, and will continue to, disappear which is why encryption is just another step in the evolution of public safety communications.

In many cases, cell phones are now used in lieu of radio for sensitive communications. From the perspective of officer safety, it is better that they have an encrypted radio to use in a critical situation vs needing to use a cell phone. That includes not needing to switch to another "secure" channel but remain on the channel where the incident is in progress and probably monitored by the dispatcher and other units.

CAD streaming has the potential to track all incidents, not just what happens to be radio dispatched.

 

[mmckenna]

Thank you for this suggestion.

While this is not the type of solution we are looking for, (nothing beats the total transparency of actual radio communications) it is an interesting suggestion and certainly a compromise.....

I think one needs to be careful of assuming a consumer scanner is the only way to get information. I get it, there is a desire to get the raw, unfiltered information direct from the source.

From an agency standpoint there's going to be some desire to get information to the widest possible number of people when needed. Scanner listeners are a small slice of the population. Expecting an public funded agency to cater to a small group probably isn't a very realistic expectation.

Not far from me there is a law enforcement agency that is in the process of switching to new Harris radios. Those radios will have the LTE module in them. Primary communications will be handled over an LTE link back into the core. They'll use their old UHF system as a backup and the countywide system as a backup to that.
The driver is coverage. It's expensive to build out coverage, and LTE providers (AT&T/FirstNet) have already done it, and done it in a way that no agency could possibly afford. Multiple bands and sites using frequencies that do a much better job of building penetration than LMR ever could.

As said above, technology is advancing and a small subset of the population expecting a public safety agency to restrict themselves to technologies that never exceed consumer grade scanners isn't realistic in any way at all.

 

[richee2000]

While not directly related to the NYPD situation, many agencies now primarily dispatch jobs via MDT. Fire in my area is dispatching and status updates via the Bryx smartphone app. Cellphones are used for much activity that used to be in the radio. So, many incidents may never be heard on the radio.

Much of he ability to be aware of an incident from radio monitoring has been, and will continue to, disappear which is why encryption is just another step in the evolution of public safety communications.

In many cases, cell phones are now used in lieu of radio for sensitive communications. From the perspective of officer safety, it is better that they have an encrypted radio to use in a critical situation vs needing to use a cell phone. That includes not needing to switch to another "secure" channel but remain on the channel where the incident is in progress and probably monitored by the dispatcher and other units.

CAD streaming has the potential to track all incidents, not just what happens to be radio dispatche

While not directly related to the NYPD situation, many agencies now primarily dispatch jobs via MDT. Fire in my area is dispatching and status updates via the Bryx smartphone app. Cellphones are used for much activity that used to be in the radio. So, many incidents may never be heard on the radio.

Much of he ability to be aware of an incident from radio monitoring has been, and will continue to, disappear which is why encryption is just another step in the evolution of public safety communications.

In many cases, cell phones are now used in lieu of radio for sensitive communications. From the perspective of officer safety, it is better that they have an encrypted radio to use in a critical situation vs needing to use a cell phone. That includes not needing to switch to another "secure" channel but remain on the channel where the incident is in progress and probably monitored by the dispatcher and other units.

CAD streaming has the potential to track all incidents, not just what happens to be radio dispatched.

I think one needs to be careful of assuming a consumer scanner is the only way to get information. I get it, there is a desire to get the raw, unfiltered information direct from the source.

From an agency standpoint there's going to be some desire to get information to the widest possible number of people when needed. Scanner listeners are a small slice of the population. Expecting an public funded agency to cater to a small group probably isn't a very realistic expectation.

Not far from me there is a law enforcement agency that is in the process of switching to new Harris radios. Those radios will have the LTE module in them. Primary communications will be handled over an LTE link back into the core. They'll use their old UHF system as a backup and the countywide system as a backup to that.
The driver is coverage. It's expensive to build out coverage, and LTE providers (AT&T/FirstNet) have already done it, and done it in a way that no agency could possibly afford. Multiple bands and sites using frequencies that do a much better job of building penetration than LMR ever could.

As said above, technology is advancing and a small subset of the population expecting a public safety agency to restrict themselves to technologies that never exceed consumer grade scanners isn't realistic in any way at all.

In a city of 8 million people such as New York City, which is currently experiencing violent crime issues due to situations that I will not get into on here, I don't think it's only a very small subset of "scanner listeners" that feel the need to have transparency in reference to the crime in their neighborhoods. New York City represents the number one market for most of the press in this country, and has the largest population in the United States. I am still a proponent of what Chicago police did, through their OEM, All of their encrypted dispatch channels are offered to the public on the broadcastify app with a 30 minute delay. This would be a totally acceptable compromise that allows officer safety in most situations as well as total transparency to the public as to the crime going on in their neighborhoods. This continues to be the best solution in my opinion, it's not a perfect solution for all involved but it is the best solution.

 

[mmckenna]

Percentage wise, I think you'll find that scanner owners is a small one. Reasons aside, expecting taxpayers to cater to a small group of hobbyists probably isn't realistic. I firmly believe that anyone that approaches this encryption issue with the idea that radio systems need to accommodate the consumer radio receiver industry is flawed.

Streaming audio may be the right solution. However, it doesn't address the CJI/PII issues in any way shape or form, even with a delay. Not sure how Chicago gets around this. In fact, I don't see how it does in any way, and I'd be interested to see how long their solution stands up once the feds start pushing the CJI/PII protection requirements.

CAD streams are available to anyone with an internet connection. Same with audio streaming. You'd no doubt agree that there is a higher percentage of people with internet access than scanners. I think that's your better angle of attack than any sort of law restricting encryption of radio traffic. It would make the most financial sense for the agency. In other words, the best investment of taxpayer funds to benefit the highest number of citizens.

 

[richee2000]

Percentage wise, I think you'll find that scanner owners is a small one. Reasons aside, expecting taxpayers to cater to a small group of hobbyists probably isn't realistic. I firmly believe that anyone that approaches this encryption issue with the idea that radio systems need to accommodate the consumer radio receiver industry is flawed.

Streaming audio may be the right solution. However, it doesn't address the CJI/PII issues in any way shape or form, even with a delay. Not sure how Chicago gets around this. In fact, I don't see how it does in any way, and I'd be interested to see how long their solution stands up once the feds start pushing the CJI/PII protection requirements.

CAD streams are available to anyone with an internet connection. Same with audio streaming. You'd no doubt agree that there is a higher percentage of people with internet access than scanners. I think that's your better angle of attack than any sort of law restricting encryption of radio traffic. It would make the most financial sense for the agency. In other words, the best investment of taxpayer funds to benefit the highest number of citizens.

The Baltimore Police department also recently encrypted their radio transmissions but offers the public clear transmissions with a 15 minute delay.... Still seems like the best answer for the issue at hand....

 

[richee2000]

Baltimore Police to encrypt, delay scanner transmissions starting in July

The Baltimore Police Department is switching to encrypted radio systems and devices, delaying public access to live audio streams of police activity.

www.thebaltimorebanner.com

 

[mmckenna]

Still seems like the best answer for the issue at hand....

It does. And with some newer logging recorders used in dispatch centers having the ability, it's fairly easy to do.

However, if you start digging into the FBI/DOJ requirements for protecting CJI/PII, it's not permitted, even with delay. That may be what the NYPD is looking at. Meeting those requirements takes a lot of time and work, and they are probably smart enough to know not to open that door while they are trying to address the issue. Those in state legislature are not experts in this field, so their input isn't the last word on the subject.

CAD streaming is one of the more realistic solutions.

Also, one of the reasons I'd never buy a new scanner. No matter what anyone thinks, freely accessible public safety communications isn't going to last forever.

 

[richee2000]

It does. And with some newer logging recorders used in dispatch centers having the ability, it's fairly easy to do.

However, if you start digging into the FBI/DOJ requirements for protecting CJI/PII, it's not permitted, even with delay. That may be what the NYPD is looking at. Meeting those requirements takes a lot of time and work, and they are probably smart enough to know not to open that door while they are trying to address the issue. Those in state legislature are not experts in this field, so their input isn't the last word on the subject.

CAD streaming is one of the more realistic solutions.

Also, one of the reasons I'd never buy a new scanner. No matter what anyone thinks, freely accessible public safety communications isn't going to last forever.

I'm sure uniden sales are hurting big time... With encryption taking place in many areas throughout the country sales must be down. I'm the owner of an SDS 100, was considering purchasing an SDS200 but at this point it would be a waste of money.

I understand your point about the federal government privacy issues, with CJI/PII

However, it seems like there are some cities who are trying to strike a balance between officer safety and the public's requirements of transparency, and that has been met with the broadcastify app with a built-in delay..... I'm still going with The hopeful possibility of that option, until it is no longer feasible.

 

[GadgetGeek]

Thank you for this suggestion.

While this is not the type of solution we are looking for, (nothing beats the total transparency of actual radio communications) it is an interesting suggestion and certainly a compromise.....

Transparency. They don't want it.

 

[mmckenna]

However, it seems like there are some cities who are trying to strike a balance between officer safety and the public's requirements of transparency, and that has been met with the broadcastify app with a built-in delay..... I'm still going with The hopeful possibility of that option, until it is no longer feasible.

Striking a balance is almost always a good idea and shows that both sides are willing to compromise. "Both sides" includes scanner hobbyists. But striking a balance isn't justification for ignoring laws.

It is important to consider that "transparency" can be accomplished many ways. Transparency goes way beyond just providing a resource to scanner hobbyists. A lot of the important stuff never gets passed over the radio, so assuming that banning encryption is the only answer isn't accurate at all.

As for the media, maybe they need to get out on the street more, rather than just sitting behind a desk and computer and expecting all their news stories to be fed to them. But, I'm not a journalist, so what would I know...

 

[richee2000]

Striking a balance is almost always a good idea and shows that both sides are willing to compromise. "Both sides" includes scanner hobbyists. But striking a balance isn't justification for ignoring laws.

It is important to consider that "transparency" can be accomplished many ways. Transparency goes way beyond just providing a resource to scanner hobbyists. A lot of the important stuff never gets passed over the radio, so assuming that banning encryption is the only answer isn't accurate at all.

As for the media, maybe they need to get out on the street more, rather than just sitting behind a desk and computer and expecting all their news stories to be fed to them. But, I'm not a journalist, so what would I know...

We are not really concerned about scanner hobbyists, as long as the general public has a way to monitor precinct communications in the clear through an app, that would be fine. And of course with a delay.

As far as the media is concerned, of course they rely on police scanners and scanner apps and the Citizen ap in order to get their breaking news information. In New York City we have five boroughs, Manhattan Bronx Queens Brooklyn and Staten Island.


Traffic is usually at a standstill in Manhattan and some of the other boroughs during daytime hours. It's virtually impossible to be on the street anywhere in New York City and be able to get to the other side of the city within the reasonable amount of time to cover breaking news stories.

The People of NY also rely on The citizen ap for their safety, which uses Police scanners and Aps for their info.

It's vital to be able to give the recognized media and press their access and real-time transparency to breaking news jobs.

These are all great ideas we have plenty of time to figure all of this out in New York City.

Let's hope the NYPD the press the media and the public will come to a reasonable compromise on this issue.

 

[richee2000]

Thanking everyone for their response today in a reasonable, respectful, low drama manor. This has not been the way it was in the past. Let's hope the respectful dialogue can continue without the usual nasty sarcasm and personal attacks we are used to on here.

 

[mmckenna]

It's vital to be able to give the recognized media and press their access and real-time transparency to breaking news jobs.

I agree with media having the assistance of the agency to be made aware of what is going on.
I don't agree that it means a news agency has a radio. There are other ways to achieve this.

And the 'transparency' thing….
If one is assuming that unencrypted communications provides some sort of transparency into department operations, they probably haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years or so.
Virtually all radio traffic is recorded, so anyone trying to do anything nefarious isn't going to use the radio, encrypted or otherwise. There's a trail of radio ID's, recorded audio, time stamping, etc, and there are way too many people in the agency that would have access to it.

The situations that people claim to be concerned about, and why they want 'transparency', do not happen over the radio. They are happening by cell phone, messaging apps, in person meet ups'. A scanner, audio stream, CAD feed or radio issued to the media isn't going to provide the magic key to the transparency door. That's going to need to be achieved other ways.

Let's hope the NYPD the press the media and the public will come to a reasonable compromise on this issue.

They will. It won't be rolling back to analog FM to make it easy for the person with the 40 year old crystal Radio Shack scanner can listen in. It's likely going to be something like a CAD feed or redacted audio stream with a significant delay. Unencrypted dispatch channels are not a good solution, and hobbyists that keep pushing that are likely going to be disappointed.

As for the media, they'll be treated separately from Average Joe citizen.

 

[richee2000]

I agree with media having the assistance of the agency to be made aware of what is going on.
I don't agree that it means a news agency has a radio. There are other ways to achieve this.

And the 'transparency' thing….
If one is assuming that unencrypted communications provides some sort of transparency into department operations, they probably haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years or so.
Virtually all radio traffic is recorded, so anyone trying to do anything nefarious isn't going to use the radio, encrypted or otherwise. There's a trail of radio ID's, recorded audio, time stamping, etc, and there are way too many people in the agency that would have access to it.

The situations that people claim to be concerned about, and why they want 'transparency', do not happen over the radio. They are happening by cell phone, messaging apps, in person meet ups'. A scanner, audio stream, CAD feed or radio issued to the media isn't going to provide the magic key to the transparency door. That's going to need to be achieved other ways.



They will. It won't be rolling back to analog FM to make it easy for the person with the 40 year old crystal Radio Shack scanner can listen in. It's likely going to be something like a CAD feed or redacted audio stream with a significant delay. Unencrypted dispatch channels are not a good solution, and hobbyists that keep pushing that are likely going to be disappointed.

As for the media, they'll be treated separately from Average Joe citizen.

I wasn't advocating for scanner hobbyists.
I wasn't trying to find out the inner workings of the police department.
Transparency translates into citizens knowing what crimes are occurring in their neighborhoods, Even if it's with a short delay....
And of course I agree that the press should be treated differently than the general public.
At this point if the broadcastify app is working successfully for Chicago Police department and Baltimore Police department, and if it's satisfies the citizens with their transparency need and also satisfies the concerns for officer safety, My opinion is this is the way to go.....

 

[mmckenna]

I wasn't advocating for scanner hobbyists.
I wasn't trying to find out the inner workings of the police department.
Transparency translates into citizens knowing what crimes are occurring in their neighborhoods, Even if it's with a short delay....

I think transparency isn't the term you want. Transparency usually relates to visibility into the department operations from the outside.

What you want is "situational awareness".

And of course I agree that the press should be treated differently than the general public.
At this point if the broadcastify app is working successfully for Chicago Police department and Baltimore Police department, and if it's satisfies the citizens with their transparency need and also satisfies the concerns for officer safety, My opinion is this is the way to go.....

Yeah, might be the way to go, until DOJ/FBI clamps down on it. Might want to avoid exerting too much effort in that direction, might want to shoot for CAD feed as a longer term solution that would meet the DOJ/FBI requirements.

 

[richee2000]

I think transparency isn't the term you want. Transparency usually relates to visibility into the department operations from the outside.

What you want is "situational awareness".



Yeah, might be the way to go, until DOJ/FBI clamps down on it. Might want to avoid exerting too much effort in that direction, might want to shoot for CAD feed as a longer term solution that would meet the DOJ/FBI requirements.

I think all possible solutions are on the table.... And yes we are talking about neighborhood situational awareness..... Many people use the citizens app for that, but that app will go dark when encryption hits.

 

[richee2000]

New Yorkers feel betrayed as police radio dispatches end: ‘You’d hear about nine shootings a day’

The NYPD has communicated via public channels for nearly a century. Now the system is being encrypted

www.theguardian.com

 

[n2ops]

NY anti-encryption bill. amNew York: Over and out? State bill would thwart NYPD radio encryption plan and protect public access to transmissions.