FCC Enforcement, tasty, tasty enforcement….

[KevinC]

Radios don't transmit OSWs.

220, 221, whatever it takes.

 

[GTR8000]

Radios don't transmit OSWs.

And since the system in question here is P25...they don't even transmit ISWs!

 

[KE4ZNR]

220, 221, whatever it takes.

 

[N4DES]

When I catch a clone, I capture the legit subscriber, reprogram with new ID, and leave the clone on, to watch it. and gather evidence. Every OSW received is an access attempt and a charge.

I do similar with ZC$ that Genesis captures...

 

[MTS2000des]

I do similar with ZC$ that Genesis captures...

Not a bad idea! Something to add to my daily tasks.

 

[Outerdog]

ZC$

Is that a new crypto?

 

[N4KVL]

Is that a new crypto?

Slang for AES-1024

 

[MNN198]

Never trust a man whom teaches or lectures with his hands in his pockets.

"Keys up on a drug interdiction" What?

Programs for Arapahoe special ops 1. Checks notes... Encrypted TG. Programs for ASO1. Checks notes... Encrypted TG. This colorful individual has access to keys also?

But when this video was done those talk groups were not encrypted and the county authorized the use. The Blus channel mention is a network first channel that all system users have access.

 

[MNN198]

Never mind. No use trying to be a voice of reason with so many keyboard warriors.

 

[MTS2000des]

So many keyboard warriors. Bashing a guy with out knowing all the facts and thus far this guy hasn’t been hit with any enforcement. No fines no penalties for either the HF rig that was transmitting and this far nothing in this matter. Will you all come back and apologize when the bureau comes back with no enforcement?
this thread and forum is as bad as reading twitter. Everyone here is an expert yet not.

Dude. Stop defending your buddy.

If he had authorization, JeffCo and CTDRS wouldn't have contacted the EB and commenced all the effort to pop him.
I am not apologizing for anything. He screwed up.

Whether or not the FCC acts, local charges are filed or not, the accused is not an official of any public agency,and acted outside the scope of any perceived "authorization as an ARES volunteer". He screwed around with trunking subscribers causing problems on a public safety network. This whackerism resulted in the FCC being REQUESTED by the AHJ to assist them.That is how it works. Some of us do this for a living ya know, and we've been down this road. People who are authorized to act don't get in trouble with the FCC. They have written authorization, and admin/support folks know them, provide hardware ASKs with signed documents that state they will not engage in authorized programming/reprogramming, and are audited. That is the way it's done. Professionals know and do, whackers play and dress up in cosplay with badges bought off the internet.

If he was authorized, he would have gotten a phone call and email about his XTS2500 and duplicate ID, and the FCC would never know about it, let alone a truck roll and start DFing P25 transmissions on the licensed frequencies of CTDRS.

It's better to remain silent than speak up and remove all doubt.

 

[mancow]

While some manufacturers do make radios that will track talkgroups without affiliating, I don't think Motorola sees any value in that. No legit user needs it. Likely, if they did add it, they'd find a way to charge for it.
Plus, since it wouldn't affiliate, it would be potentially useless on a large multisite system. Since Motorola likes to sell large multisite systems, there is even less value in a feature like this. Someone would buy it, then get pissed off that they can't listen to traffic from 8 counties over...
Might soon become a moot point, as it is instances like this that lead to encryption.

For decades now those in the know have been saying "Just buy a scanner". That removes the chances of the FCC showing up at the door.

"F*** around and find out" is the title of a similar thread on another website. Seems to be a very accurate description of what happened here.
There are some skills required, and apparently some don't have them. There needs to be enough understanding that if someone doesn't know how to do this right, they need to stop. Unfortunately there are those that won't admit they don't know something. In this case, they "found out". Someone would have to be pretty dense to not notice the radio affiliating. I know my computer speakers pop when my radio affiliates on my system.

Affiliating a radio takes resources away from the system. Those resources may be severely in demand. It's really shortsighted to do that, and shows either a lack of knowledge or a lack of concern. I'm really glad to see that the administrators of the system brought the FCC in on this. They certainly could have just bricked the radio and gone on with their day, but they apparently felt that taking the time to involve the FCC was necessary. Maybe this has been a big issue, maybe our friend was doing something else other than just letting the radio affiliate. Likely we'll never hear the entire story. Either way, this radio didn't accidentally affiliate once or twice. For them to DF him, he must have left it running for a long time, or there was some other clue that lead them to his door.

But lesson here is, Don't let your radio affiliate. Don't clone radio ID's. Don't take resources away from a public safety radio system. And if you don't understand that, or cannot make the radio work that way, STOP.

Ya' know, I'm the type of guy that usually likes to cut people some slack, especially when they are temporarily ignorant on something. It's usually an opportunity for a good learning experience. But there's apparently something else going on here.

Plenty of legit users have a need for it.

 

[KevinC]

Plenty of legit users have a need for it.

The problem is SmartZone and affiliations. I can guarantee you someone would throw a fit because their no affiliate APX missed a call…due to no one be affiliated to that TG on whatever site the radio was on….and then somebody would get hurt or die because of it and the lawsuits would start. I can just hear it, “Motorola should have known this could happen, so they are liable”.

 

[Outerdog]

The problem is SmartZone and affiliations. I can guarantee you someone would throw a fit because their no affiliate APX missed a call…due to no one be affiliated to that TG on whatever site the radio was on….and then somebody would get hurt or die because of it and the lawsuits would start. I can just hear it, “Motorola should have known this could happen, so they are liable”.

C'mon man. Everything in trunking land does not come down to lawsuits and death does it? It's such a dumb place to go -- a weak argument to be sure.

This is a mater of a clearly defined use case, intelligent deployment and training. Besides, no affiliate scan is built into Multi-System Scan as it sits today. It's a feature Motorola has already put out there. The only thing being done out here in the wild that's different than how an agency would deploy it is banging out system keys. Otherwise, it works exactly the same.

 

[MTS2000des]

This is a mater of a clearly defined use case, intelligent deployment and training. Besides, no affiliate scan is built into Multi-System Scan as it sits today. It's a feature Motorola has already put out there. The only thing being done out here in the wild that's different than how an agency would deploy it is banging out system keys. Otherwise, it works exactly the same.

One fire department on the north end of my county has folks that work for two agencies. The other agency is on another system with cross programming. The Chief met with me and his main complaint was not being able to monitor both agencies for calls and had to carry two radios.

I mentioned IPS, but with a caveat- once you are listening on agency 2, your radio is "off" our system, so if a call comes in on dispatch TG, you don't get it while your portable is scanning or stuck on agency 2's takgroups, even if "agency 1/system 1" is priority 1. He is a technically savvy guy and even setup a Zello RG himself on their "second" system so he wouldn't miss calls.

But even he agreed, this should not be for front line users. There is too much that can go wrong. It may be a stretch that someone would file a lawsuit over it, but anything is possible in 2022/2023.

 

[KevinC]

C'mon man. Everything in trunking land does not come down to lawsuits and death does it? It's such a dumb place to go -- a weak argument to be sure.

Unfortunately it does. Firsthand experience, multiple times.

Prime example…large fire, ceiling collapsed and firefighters died. Calls for help from the FF’s were heard over the radio system, responded to and even recorded, but it was the radio manufacturer’s fault they died.

Another example, city mismanaged their KVL and dozens of radios encryption got completely screwed up. Story made it to the media and it’s suddenly the manufacturers fault. We figured out what they did wrong and fixed it for them for free (lots of remote engineering time and local support). Story was crafted for the media so as to not blame the city.

 

[Outerdog]

But even he agreed, this should not be for front line users.

That's what "intelligent deployment" meant in my post. I agree completely, it's not for front line users.

 

[Outerdog]

Unfortunately it does. Firsthand experience, multiple times.

Prime example…large fire, ceiling collapsed and firefighters died. Calls for help from the FF’s were heard over the radio system, responded to and even recorded, but it was the radio manufacturer’s fault they died.

Another example, city mismanaged their KVL and dozens of radios encryption got completely screwed up. Story made it to the media and it’s suddenly the manufacturers fault. We figured out what they did wrong and fixed it for them for free (lots of remote engineering time and local support). Story was crafted for the media so as to not blame the city.

Not sure what either of those have to do with this discussion, but okay. My point was simply that saying "you can't do that because you're gonna get sued" just stifles any sort of meaningful technical discussion. Everyone is always about to be sued for something. The nuances as to why no affiliate scanning is a good idea or not is what is important to radio professionals. "You're gonna get sued" adds nothing.

 

[mmckenna]

Never mind. No use trying to be a voice of reason with so many keyboard warriors.

There may be "keyboard warriors" here, but there are also a number of us that do this stuff for a living.

On another site, this same discussions is titled "F*** around and find out"
What this guy did was exactly that.
He had zero authorization to be doing what he did. That's why the FCC was called in.
There's no amount of ham radio double talk that will get him out of that. This is the system admins and the FCC making it 100% crystal clear that this sort of stuff will not be tolerated, even by someone with a ham ticket.

Sort of like this winner right here:

FCC Proposes Fine for Interrupting Communications During Wildfire

FCC proposes $34,000 fine against licensee of amateur radio station for apparently interfering with radio communications that were guiding fire suppression aircraft combating the 2021 "Johnson Fire" near Elk River, Idaho

www.fcc.gov

I believe in second chances, but I also believe that when someone does something so incredibly stupid, there needs to be some consequences. Consequences need to be sufficient enough to make sure any further thought of doing it again get stopped by a painful/costly memory.

 

[KevinC]

Not sure what either of those have to do with this discussion, but okay. My point was simply that saying "you can't do that because you're gonna get sued" just stifles any sort of meaningful technical discussion. Everyone is always about to be sued for something. The nuances as to why no affiliate scanning is a good idea or not is what is important to radio professionals. "You're gonna get sued" adds nothing.

They are just as pertinent to this discussion as no affiliate scan is…which is not at all. So I agree, let’s get back on the topic of the NoV.

 

[Lucifer_Morningstar]

Not a bad idea! Something to add to my daily tasks.

System is wide open ?
(ie. UNC-W Default Access Permissions: "yes" - only way to get ZC$xxxxx)