FCC Enforcement, tasty, tasty enforcement….

[mmckenna]

This is a good point, a bunch of us have assumed this gentlemen was mistakenly attempting NAS, but it's also possible he actually programmed the radio to affiliate so as to monitor distant TG's. It would be interesting to find out which one it was.

I suspect you guys are correct on this.
Looks like he screwed up on a number of fronts:
Programming cloned ID's. That'll draw the attention of system admins.
Programming in talk groups and pulling them around the system. That'll draw the attention of the system admins, as well as tie up resources.
Programming radios on a system he wasn't licensed for.

Either way, this wasn't some minor transgression. It takes a lot to get the system admins AND the FCC at your door, not to mention getting an NOV. I've found that if it's an honest mistake/programming error, the FCC enforcement guys will usually give a verbal warning and leave. For him to draw this much attention, he must have really pissed someone off.

 

[MTS2000des]

For him to draw this much attention, he must have really pissed someone off.

It can be a bad, bad day when one gets on the radar of the EB.
Twice in six months isn't an accident.
That's a pattern.
The one who signed both NALs isn't a hot dog whacker straight out of college. Seasoned, well educated and long time member of the RF world both in GOV and private sector.

Where there is smoke, there is fire.

 

[NVAGVUP]

Whenever someone comes on here and asks about programming their personal radio on a department system, I've always tried to tell them to get permission, and get it in writing, on department letterhead, signed by the chief and the FCC Licensee. That's about as much as you can do in the CYA department.

Apparently this guy failed to do that, or never had it.

100% Agree. If permission is NOT in writing, it doesn't exist.

 

[AM909]

... or are servicing their equipment.

But even the techs privileges are compartmentalized and restricted to their particular jobs, and I'm speaking of transmitting, there have been a couple of examples of "Techs gone wild" out there

Definitely. Or theft from a tech's vehicle, which happened to me, fortunately not with any live PS radios, but the thief came up on our tech channel and played around until the battery died.

 

[R8000]

Definitely. Or theft from a tech's vehicle, which happened to me, fortunately not with any live PS radios, but the thief came up on our tech channel and played around until the battery died.

I like KevinC's idea of call alerting the stolen radio until sanity is destroyed on the thief's side of things

 

[mmckenna]

I like KevinC's idea of call alerting the stolen radio until sanity is destroyed on the thief's side of things

I always felt there should be a small explosive charge built into the radios. Not large enough to hurt anyone, but enough to make the radio no longer viable.

I think that would get the point across nicely.

 

[northstarfire0693]

I can never understand why someone would want to use a cloned ID. The issues that could cause and possibility of loss of life. with the complex of the new systems the admins will know. If you know how to do NAS, great. If not, buy a damn scanner.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I can never understand why someone would want to use a cloned ID. The issues that could cause and possibility of loss of life. with the complex of the new systems the admins will know. If you know how to do NAS, great. If not, buy a damn scanner.

Probably because they don't know what they don't know. Those of us who do know...most likely work in the industry.

 

[hexagon_keyhole]

Wow!

 

[chrismol1]

I can never understand why someone would want to use a cloned ID. The issues that could cause and possibility of loss of life. with the complex of the new systems the admins will know. If you know how to do NAS, great. If not, buy a damn scanner.

A couple of thing, especially affiliating as in this case, this guy wanted to affiliate without regard to NAS possibly to drag talkgroups to a local tower otherwise not accessible. The belief a legitimate ID will go undetected, the belief a legit ID especially one typically used for wide area use will raise less suspicion dragging talkgroups all over different trunked sites. Whatever the case may be, this person found out the system wasn't as lax as anticipated

 

[WX4JCW]

A couple of thing, especially affiliating as in this case, this guy wanted to affiliate without regard to NAS possibly to drag talkgroups to a local tower otherwise not accessible. The belief a legitimate ID will go undetected, the belief a legit ID especially one typically used for wide area use will raise less suspicion dragging talkgroups all over different trunked sites. Whatever the case may be, this person found out the system wasn't as lax as anticipated

Obviously it wasn't a legitimate ID, I disagree on some things the sysadmins do on here, but one cannot argue that they are on top of things, they do watch these systems, they have tools that makes it easy, and I suspect they have a grin when they brick a radio

 

[mmckenna]

and I suspect they have a grin when they brick a radio

 

[Project25_MASTR]

A couple of thing, especially affiliating as in this case, this guy wanted to affiliate without regard to NAS possibly to drag talkgroups to a local tower otherwise not accessible. The belief a legitimate ID will go undetected, the belief a legit ID especially one typically used for wide area use will raise less suspicion dragging talkgroups all over different trunked sites. Whatever the case may be, this person found out the system wasn't as lax as anticipated

It's immediately detectable if the legitimate ID is in use at another site. The system will allow the cloned SU to affiliate to the new site but won't send a de-affiliation announcement to the old site (at least Astro 25 7.17 and earlier didn't and I can't speak for Atlas, Vida or Vesta) but will de-affiliate the SU form that site. If that was the last SU holding the TG open, the system doesn't know to pass traffic to the legitimate SU. If it's not, the SU will continue to receive but when it preforms a channel request it will just get bonked. Cloned ID's on the same site...can behave even more oddly and you could see a cloned SU affiliating to a different talkgroup force a regroup of the legitimate SU so it's no longer on the TG it thought it was. All because most systems can only handle a single SUID affiliation to a single TGID for a single site on the entire system.

 

[WX4JCW]

It's immediately detectable if the legitimate ID is in use at another site. The system will allow the cloned SU to affiliate to the new site but won't send a de-affiliation announcement to the old site (at least Astro 25 7.17 and earlier didn't and I can't speak for Atlas, Vida or Vesta) but will de-affiliate the SU form that site. If that was the last SU holding the TG open, the system doesn't know to pass traffic to the legitimate SU. If it's not, the SU will continue to receive but when it preforms a channel request it will just get bonked. Cloned ID's on the same site...can behave even more oddly and you could see a cloned SU affiliating to a different talkgroup force a regroup of the legitimate SU so it's no longer on the TG it thought it was. All because most systems can only handle a single SUID affiliation to a single TGID for a single site on the entire system.

so in essence causing major issues for the legitimate SU, and one would pray that SU is not someone who would need to make a life and death emergency call, and those tools don't take that into consideration when they play around like this.

hopefully someone contemplating this kind of stupidity will read this thread and think twice about pulling these idiotic stunts, but alas its probably like all the Darwin candidates we see on a daily basis, you cant fix stupid.

 

[MTS2000des]

so in essence causing major issues for the legitimate SU, and one would pray that SU is not someone who would need to make a life and death emergency call, and those tools don't take that into consideration when they play around like this.

hopefully someone contemplating this kind of stupidity will read this thread and think twice about pulling these idiotic stunts, but alas its probably like all the Darwin candidates we see on a daily basis, you cant fix stupid.

This is what the YouTube radio programmers and those who don't actually work on a system for a living fail to understand and see is what happens on the FNE side.

"It's all good until it isn't"

When it isn't, it can be what Mr. Dean is finding out or worse.

Want to listen? Buy a scanner. No one ever got anyone killed programming a scanner. No one's scanner ever emitted RF knocking on the door of the radio system(s) they are monitoring. No one ever got charged with a crime for programming a scanner.

If this is a broken record begging to be changed, it is. Too many well meaning hobbyists buy trunked subscribers and start meddling with things that are dubiously questionable to begin with (e.g. pirated copies of programming software, system keys, etc), have zero knowledge of how these systems actually work, and worse don't even know when they get something wrong on their zealous path to "No Affiliate Scan" until there is a knock at the door.

I'll say it again because it's worth repeating:

Don't be that guy.

Uniden SDS series, Unication, and of course Blue Tail Technologies P25 RX stuff will ensure one will NEVER IN NO WAY get on the radar of a trunking system administrator, district attorney, or FCC.

 

[mmckenna]

Right now, someone is reading that and saying "No, I'm smarter than that, I've got the Yootoobs on my side"
And we'll be talking about bricked radios or FCC enforcement again.

Long Live Encryption!

 

[WX4JCW]

Right now, someone is reading that and saying "No, I'm smarter than that, I've got the Yootoobs on my side"
And we'll be talking about bricked radios or FCC enforcement again.

Long Live Encryption!

I'm thinking LLA is better than encryption, even with encryption the radio can still affiliate and cause issues, I'm a huge proponent of LLA in these cases, I'm not familiar totally but from what I have read is the key is a 256Bit one but that would take all the fun out of bricking the radios i suppose

 

[mmckenna]

I'm thinking LLA is better than encryption, even with encryption the radio can still affiliate and cause issues, I'm a huge proponent of LLA in these cases, I'm not familiar totally but from what I have read is the key is a 256Bit one but that would take all the fun out of bricking the radios i suppose

I agree. LLA is the way to go. No need for anyone who isn't a legit user to be able to get on the system. It would stop this nonsense. It's been proven time and time again that some of the people in the NAS crowd are not smart enough to handle it. Like most things, it just takes one person to screw it up for everyone else.

 

[WX4JCW]

I agree. LLA is the way to go. No need for anyone who isn't a legit user to be able to get on the system. It would stop this nonsense. It's been proven time and time again that some of the people in the NAS crowd are not smart enough to handle it. Like most things, it just takes one person to screw it up for everyone else.

See we do agree on things

 

[mmckenna]

See we do agree on things

Probably a lot of things.