Future encryption

[wogggieee]

In the Twin Cities alone we have had at least 2 cases in the past 2-3 years where scanner users and members of this group have been arrested for use of scanners in commission of a crime,

That's an awful lot of money to spend to stop one instance a year while reducing transparency. Seems like a solution in search of a justification. More harm than good in my opinion.

 

[ToddWilkinson]

If were worried about the thing that shall not be mentioned here, maybe pull a permit, go to the capitol and express our feelings, were in America right? well lets use our constitution and figure it out, somewhere theres a loophole, we just gotta find it!

 

[sfd119]

If that sounds unreasonable to anyone in the the Law Enforcement world, then I would would ask.... "What are you trying to hide"?

It's not a matter of hiding anything. It's a matter of the general public doesn't need to know where the police/fire are going 24/7. With the advent of all this "scanner pages" and scanner apps, it does hinder law enforcement from doing their jobs occasionally. You have no idea how many times I've received a call in a dispatch center of someone complaining about their info being posted on these scanner pages...thinking it's the 911 center that runs the page. Or how about the fact of the many calls of someone saying "I just heard my name on the scanner" or "so and so told me they heard my vehicle on the scanner". It wastes time and ties up a phone line explaining this to the general public.

I've had to change the way I talk out in the field because I know people are listening...not because I'm trying to hide something...but because the public doesn't need to know. I know everything I'm transmitting is ending up, word for word, on scanner pages. I've also turned encryption on the console more and more because of the above points. We're not trying to hide anything...but trying to do our jobs effectively.

At the end of the day, it's up to each agency. You don't have a RIGHT to listen to the channels. If people would stop posting a play by play of what was happening or stopped the streaming...it would be a moot point. If people would stop using their Baofengs and ebay special radios to key up and jam radio systems, it would be a moot point. But everyone keeps doing it...calling attention to themselves...paving the way to full encryption on everything.

 

[mmtstc]

My tipping point on encryption was a time when i gave my wife a call because i needed someone to talk to after a car accident i was the on scene supervisor and had just sent a couple of my crews to the hospital with kids who i knew were not going to survive. She already knew because she had been doom scrolling Facebook and saw it on one of the public safety monitoring pages. That ticked me off because they specifically cited my tactical talkgroup radio transmissions with my dispatch center to coordinate resources and notify receiving hospitals.

These children were the same ages as my own young children.

There is a process for timely and controlled release of information and it isn't someone with incomplete information posting it on social media. That's legitimately dangerous for victims, responders, bystanders, and society. Its not that those of us who work professionally in public safety don't want you to know, its just that we aren't ready for you to know.

I share this same hobby with the rest of you and i legitimately love it. I dont want it to die and i am not going to rag on streaming services, but my beef is with social media. Social media is why the end users of systems like ARMER are the ones pushing their systems to go encrypted.

That being said, I'm pretty done with this thread as it seems to be devolving into the standard 'encryption is always bad, you cant do this in america' thread that we so often see. I'm not going to change anyone's opinions on this topic, but with the previous comment from @sfd119 and my personal experiences as a professional, you know what some of our thought processes are and why we are pushing our organizations to move to encryption modes even for day to day radio traffic.

 

[mmckenna]

I started with scanners at a young age. It lead to a rewarding career in the communications industry. I'm not "anti-scanner" in any way.

Since I do work in the industry, I can see sides of this discussion that hobbyists do not. It's unfortunate that so many have a visceral knee jerk reaction any time encryption is mentioned. It prevents discussions that would help people understand the reasons for it. While many will deny it, it's a reaction to losing their chosen form of entertainment.

There is a process for timely and controlled release of information and it isn't someone with incomplete information posting it on social media. That's legitimately dangerous for victims, responders, bystanders, and society. Its not that those of us who work professionally in public safety don't want you to know, its just that we aren't ready for you to know.

I 100% agree with this. This -exact- subject has been discussed in conferences (APCO and IWCE) many, many times. There are many cases where scanner listeners leaking information to social media have created panics that greatly impacted response and recovery efforts.

Public safety agencies need to be able to control what information is released and when it is released. They have much better tools to do it than relying on hobbyists.

But, it's also on the public safety agencies to properly communicate with the public. Many are not good at it. That needs to change.

 

[ToddWilkinson]

My tipping point on encryption was a time when i gave my wife a call because i needed someone to talk to after a car accident i was the on scene supervisor and had just sent a couple of my crews to the hospital with kids who i knew were not going to survive. She already knew because she had been doom scrolling Facebook and saw it on one of the public safety monitoring pages. That ticked me off because they specifically cited my tactical talkgroup radio transmissions with my dispatch center to coordinate resources and notify receiving hospitals.

These children were the same ages as my own young children.

There is a process for timely and controlled release of information and it isn't someone with incomplete information posting it on social media. That's legitimately dangerous for victims, responders, bystanders, and society. Its not that those of us who work professionally in public safety don't want you to know, its just that we aren't ready for you to know.

I share this same hobby with the rest of you and i legitimately love it. I dont want it to die and i am not going to rag on streaming services, but my beef is with social media. Social media is why the end users of systems like ARMER are the ones pushing their systems to go encrypted.

That being said, I'm pretty done with this thread as it seems to be devolving into the standard 'encryption is always bad, you cant do this in america' thread that we so often see. I'm not going to change anyone's opinions on this topic, but with the previous comment from @sfd119 and my personal experiences as a professional, you know what some of our thought processes are and why we are pushing our organizations to move to encryption modes even for day to day radio traffic.

Then stick to Tactical talkgroups, each department gets 5 to 6 depending on need, if their not gonna be used for intended reasons then why have them? So the tax payers can shell out 30,000 for an encrypted talkgroup? 2nd Amendment violation too, that's why California is unencrypting next year!

 

[belvdr]

Then stick to Tactical talkgroups, each department gets 5 to 6 depending on need, if their not gonna be used for intended reasons then why have them? So the tax payers can shell out 30,000 for an encrypted talkgroup? 2nd Amendment violation too, that's why California is unencrypting next year!

2nd amendment? I think you’re confused. I don’t see where any amendments apply here.

 

[ToddWilkinson]

2nd amendment? I think you’re confused. I don’t see where any amendments apply here.

My Bad lol

 

[mmckenna]

Then stick to Tactical talkgroups, each department gets 5 to 6 depending on need, if their not gonna be used for intended reasons then why have them?

Not all agencies are on trunked radio systems.

So the tax payers can shell out 30,000 for an encrypted talkgroup?

Not sure where you are getting $30,000 from or what it's based on. Talkgroups are not encrypted, the radios that use them are.

2nd Amendment violation too,

We'll assume you mean 1st amendment. And the 1st amendment doesn't have anything to do with encryption.

that's why California is unencrypting next year!

No, no it's not. That poor piece of legislation failed.

 

[belvdr]

Not sure where you are getting $30,000 from or what it's based on. Talkgroups are not encrypted, the radios that use them are.

Few questions from a layperson; your statement intrigued me.

Do you program the radio to encrypt on certain TGs then? How does partial encryption work (i.e. does a user press a button to encrypt)? Can you use more than one encryption password for multiple TGs?

 

[sfd119]

You can program radios to be strapped (encrypted) all the time on a certain TG or make it switchable (both by the end user and dispatch). Kinda depends on the agency. Yes, you can use the same encryption key for multiple TGs or different one. Comes down to agency/radio division policies.

 

[belvdr]

You can program radios to be strapped (encrypted) all the time on a certain TG or make it switchable (both by the end user and dispatch). Kinda depends on the agency. Yes, you can use the same encryption key for multiple TGs or different one. Comes down to agency/radio division policies.

Thanks for the info!

 

[mmckenna]

Few questions from a layperson; your statement intrigued me.

Do you program the radio to encrypt on certain TGs then? How does partial encryption work (i.e. does a user press a button to encrypt)? Can you use more than one encryption password for multiple TGs?

You asked a good question, and @sfd119 answered it well. Thanks to both of you.

Asking questions is important. There are too many others that won't ask questions, won't learn, generally assume things, talk about non-existent laws, confuse Constitutional Amendments, and generally have no idea what they are talking about. It goes back to the visceral knee jerk reactions whenever someone mentions encryption.

There are many of us here that work in the industry and deal with this stuff all the time. Most of us have tried to shed some light on the decision making process as well as the technical side of it. But we can't force people to listen.

Until there is constructive discussions, it's not going to change.

I'm always happy to talk about this subject from my professional point of view. I fully understand that hobbyists are passionate about it, and absolutely have a different point of view. There needs to be healthy discussion. There is much that we can learn from each other if we take the time and treat each other like adults.

 

[belvdr]

You asked a good question, and @sfd119 answered it well. Thanks to both of you.

Asking questions is important. There are too many others that won't ask questions, won't learn, generally assume things, talk about non-existent laws, confuse Constitutional Amendments, and generally have no idea what they are talking about. It goes back to the visceral knee jerk reactions whenever someone mentions encryption.

There are many of us here that work in the industry and deal with this stuff all the time. Most of us have tried to shed some light on the decision making process as well as the technical side of it. But we can't force people to listen.

Until there is constructive discussions, it's not going to change.

I'm always happy to talk about this subject from my professional point of view. I fully understand that hobbyists are passionate about it, and absolutely have a different point of view. There needs to be healthy discussion. There is much that we can learn from each other if we take the time and treat each other like adults.

Thanks to you and @sfd119 for answering my questions, especially those that are most likely basic to you. I know that some questions that may be asked may not be easily answered, or you may not be allowed to answer. Your patience is a great virtue, one I wish I had more of.

I love to learn, even things that I have little to do with, such as the internal workings of radio systems. I like to listen to my radios, but will never program a radio system of any sorts, even though that would be interesting to look at.

In a somewhat related story, I know of several companies that boast about how long employees stay. While that can certainly be a good thing, it can also be a hindrance, if folks settle into the mantra "we have always done it this way." It somewhat relates to radios, in that folks who have done this for a long time tend to believe they have a firm understanding of the concepts, because that's how it worked a long time ago or they assume based on incorrect fundamental knowledge.

As for me, I will never proclaim myself to be an expert in anything. Self-proclaimed experts tend to have an ulterior motive. Thus, I'm not afraid to ask questions, and I'm glad there are folks willing to answer.

 

[mmckenna]

Thanks to you and @sfd119 for answering my questions, especially those that are most likely basic to you. I know that some questions that may be asked may not be easily answered, or you may not be allowed to answer. Your patience is a great virtue, one I wish I had more of.

I love to learn, even things that I have little to do with, such as the internal workings of radio systems. I like to listen to my radios, but will never program a radio system of any sorts, even though that would be interesting to look at.

Happy to help, and like I said, a good question.
I know there are others like me, but for myself, I enjoy the discussions on this site, and I'm happy to pass on what knowledge I can. I had a lot of people help me when I was getting started, both in the hobby and the industry, and I feel it's important to keep paying that forward.

In a somewhat related story, I know of several companies that boast about how long employees stay. While that can certainly be a good thing, it can also be a hindrance, if folks settle into the mantra "we have always done it this way." It somewhat relates to radios, in that folks who have done this for a long time tend to believe they have a firm understanding of the concepts, because that's how it worked a long time ago or they assume based on incorrect fundamental knowledge.

That's absolutely an issue. Some get in a job, get comfortable, and refuse to change.
In radio systems, that's kind of difficult to do, or those that do it don't last long. Technology changes, and you have to keep up. FCC mandated narrow banding required a lot of radio systems to be updated/changed/reprogrammed, so that sort of prevented a bit of stagnation. Some rely on contractors or vendors for everything, so it does happen.
Because of where I work and who I have to interface with, stagnation is not an option. I have to keep up with the industry, and they spend a fair amount of money sending me to conferences, training, exercises, etc. The communications world is changing around us, and sitting still isn't an option.

As for me, I will never proclaim myself to be an expert in anything. Self-proclaimed experts tend to have an ulterior motive. Thus, I'm not afraid to ask questions, and I'm glad there are folks willing to answer.

Yeah, "expert" is a dangerous word. They sometimes refer to me as an "SME" (Subject Matter Expert) internally at work, but that just means out of all the people there, I know more about the subject than they do. Pretty easy to do when I'm surrounded by mostly IT type guys.

There are experts out there, but they are expensive. But, like you said, some have motives, some do not. It's important to know the difference.

 

[ofd8001]

This thread needs to be closed. We getting too much into opinion versus fact. Opinions will go many ways and people are going to disagree and there is little hope for that to change.

An old state fire marshal instructor told us new folks: "An Ex is a 'has-been' and a 'Spurt' is a drip under pressure."

 

[KD0NDO]

This thread needs to be closed. We getting too much into opinion versus fact. Opinions will go many ways and people are going to disagree and there is little hope for that to change.

An old state fire marshal instructor told us new folks: "An Ex is a 'has-been' and a 'Spurt' is a drip under pressure."

I think the opinion from both sides is still constructive. With it we can see how the view points differ and it may help people understand where others are coming from.

There are people in this thread that have a direct relationship with the radio system in this state (system users, and admins). They offer good information on why some decisions are made that the radio enthusiast may never consider. Both opinion and fact are relevant information.

Fact, tgrp “A” is encrypted. Opinion, the end users description of how the use of encryption has changed their ability to effectively communicate sensitive information. And so on.

Like others have mentioned. We need this discussion. None of this is going to change the fact that encryption is going to continue to become more main stream. So we might as well talk about it and try to learn.

Some people may not like the decision (myself included) to encrypt. But I understand the need in certain situations and like to use conversations like this to further educate myself on the topic.

 

[mmckenna]

Like others have mentioned. We need this discussion. None of this is going to change the fact that encryption is going to continue to become more main stream. So we might as well talk about it and try to learn.

There is another thread down in the bilges that has some good discussions going on. It's not limited to one state/area.

The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!

In the words of the Bud Light commercial .... HERE WE GO! Go forth and fight for and against the RadioReference Live Audio Feed platform. Keep it civil, keep it clean. Good luck :roll:

forums.radioreference.com

There are many very valid reasons to encrypt and it's not going away. A good focus for people would be to start talking to local agencies about improving social media and other forms of mass communications. One idea would be to ask agencies that go full in on encryption to add PIO resources. Not all agencies are good at public information and it is certainly an area that they could be urged to improve on. No, it's not a radio, but it is what people need.

 

[thunderr10]

This thread needs to be closed. We getting too much into opinion versus fact. Opinions will go many ways and people are going to disagree and there is little hope for that to change.

An old state fire marshal instructor told us new folks: "An Ex is a 'has-been' and a 'Spurt' is a drip under pressure."

I guess that was his "opinion".

 

[lenk911]

For those Minnesota resident's information, the largest state legislature in the country is opening its session this week for 5 months. First time in a while where one party controls all seats of government. Large percentage of new members all anxious to serve their constituents. Write them a letter with some of the good ideas above. Give them a call!