"Grave disservice"

[Project25_MASTR]

I agree it's it's different mentality, but both these systems, regardless of having multiple system ID's are wide area. For perspective, you could fit 3.89 Florida states inside Alberta.

What these systems don't have is a large, per site channel count. Majority are 4 RF channels. It's NOT a busy system, not even a little bit.

Even three to six channel VHF sites can handle some traffic though. I've got some of the system reports from GATRRS (most of the system is made up of VHF sites) dated June 2017...it shows that Blanco County's Mountain Top site (which is three channels) took 24,500 calls over the month and only had 5 busies. Between January 2015 and June 2017 the site average some 23,000 calls a month.

 

[GlobalNorth]

..But overall, Motorola is pretty well known for helping large agencies write RFP's that pretty much guarantee that Mother M is the only one who will ever qualify. Right down to silly stuff like exactly how many millimeters the volume and channel select knobs have to be...

In my experience of over two decades in law enforcement and watching, spec'ing, and reviewing government acquisition programs, many sellers will help an agency write the RFPs - Harley Davidson, Kawasaki, BMW, Honda did it for motorcycles; Ford, GM, and the various iterations of Chrysler for patrol and specialty autos/truck/vans; Beretta, Glock, Heckler und Koch, Smith & Wesson, Colt, etc. for firearms; Blauer and Fecheimer for uniforms; Federal Signal, Code 3, Whelen, etc. for lighting equipment; and yes - Motorola, GE, etc. for the comm gear.

Public safety executives are often the deciding factor in gear. The RFPs reflect their biases for stuff that they started out their careers with - even if it is not state of the art a generation later. Example - we got a California police chief who started in the business in the 1970s. At the time, the Dodge Monaco and the Plymouth Fury were popular police packages. When he arrived and discovered we had Fords, he vowed to change that to Dodge Charger, even though the cars were not even on the market yet. Our experience with a few Dodge Intrepid police pkg units with V-6 engines was terrible. Fleet services begged us not to buy them, but he got his Dodge Chargers. That was a costly mistake in early days of the Charger. He only lasted a few years, but because few liked them, those Chargers weren't driven and they hung around for years.

RFPs can be a blessing against the bean-counters who refuse to buy quality gear because a Midland portable was $200 less per unit or a curse when someone who has no expertise in the use, durability, and maintenance of the gear picks it out.

 

[mmckenna]

In my experience of over two decades in law enforcement and watching, spec'ing, and reviewing government acquisition programs, many sellers will help an agency write the RFPs …...

RFPs can be a blessing against the bean-counters who refuse to buy quality gear because a Midland portable was $200 less per unit or a curse when someone who has no expertise in the use, durability, and maintenance of the gear picks it out.

That was sort of my point. Been in the industry 30 years. Had a Motorola trunked system when I started and migrated to Kenwood. Shortly after that, migrated our PD from all Motorola to all Kenwood. Now getting ready to migrate them to another manufacturer.

One of my goals when I replaced the trunked system was to avoid getting bullied by vendors. We essentially designed the system ourselves, confirmed design with the vendor, then went out to bid on the individual components. Work out really well and we have a great system at a fraction of the cost than if we'd listened to Motorola. Long story there that I won't go into, but their marketing/sales people wanted to play their stupid games.

The hypocrisy is Motorola acting like their poop doesn't stink and trying to shame others for using the exact same tactics they've been playing for decades. Like I said, the general public/taxpayer in Florida wouldn't know the difference between a Motorola or a Harris radio if it didn't have the sticker on it. End users/agencies playing the brand games isn't good either (actually, it's kind of funny to hear the justifications they use). A well written/executed bid process can be a wonderful thing, but big vendors usually hate them.

 

[GlobalNorth]

Engineering is one thing and marketing another. Sadly, Motorola marketing people are akin to every ad agency parody out there.

They'll do whatever they can to move product. I'm still waiting for Motorola, Harris, etc. to get caught offering bribes to overseas customers who buy their products. Business ethics in North America is far different than what is practiced elsewhere.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

In my experience of over two decades in law enforcement and watching, spec'ing, and reviewing government acquisition programs, many sellers will help an agency write the RFPs - Harley Davidson, Kawasaki, BMW, Honda did it for motorcycles; Ford, GM, and the various iterations of Chrysler for patrol and specialty autos/truck/vans; Beretta, Glock, Heckler und Koch, Smith & Wesson, Colt, etc. for firearms; Blauer and Fecheimer for uniforms; Federal Signal, Code 3, Whelen, etc. for lighting equipment; and yes - Motorola, GE, etc. for the comm gear.

Public safety executives are often the deciding factor in gear. The RFPs reflect their biases for stuff that they started out their careers with - even if it is not state of the art a generation later. Example - we got a California police chief who started in the business in the 1970s. At the time, the Dodge Monaco and the Plymouth Fury were popular police packages. When he arrived and discovered we had Fords, he vowed to change that to Dodge Charger, even though the cars were not even on the market yet. Our experience with a few Dodge Intrepid police pkg units with V-6 engines was terrible. Fleet services begged us not to buy them, but he got his Dodge Chargers. That was a costly mistake in early days of the Charger. He only lasted a few years, but because few liked them, those Chargers weren't driven and they hung around for years.

RFPs can be a blessing against the bean-counters who refuse to buy quality gear because a Midland portable was $200 less per unit or a curse when someone who has no expertise in the use, durability, and maintenance of the gear picks it out.

The funny part are those customers who are dead set on getting Vendor X, work a sole source award toward Vendor X and then wonder why Vendor X won't "sharpen their pencil" when negotiations start.

 

[GlobalNorth]

The funny part are those customers who are dead set on getting Vendor X, work a sole source award toward Vendor X and then wonder why Vendor X won't "sharpen their pencil" when negotiations start.

Oh so true!

 

[mmckenna]

...and then wonder why Vendor X won't "sharpen their pencil" when negotiations start.

It's OK, it's taxpayer dollars, there's plenty of those.

And if they run short, the ol' "What if you called 911 and no one came?" scare tactic always works. We've gotta hear that every few years around here.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

It's OK, it's taxpayer dollars, there's plenty of those.

And if they run short, the ol' "What if you called 911 and no one came?" scare tactic always works. We've gotta hear that every few years around here.

I have gone to great lengths on how (taxpayer) money could be saved by not buying some totally unnecessary technology only to be told "we want the best". It is FUD factor at its worst.

 

[OpenCarrier]

I have gone to great lengths on how (taxpayer) money could be saved by not buying some totally unnecessary technology only to be told "we want the best". It is FUD factor at its worst.

"E" technology addons......

 

[wa8pyr]

Motorola is butt hurt because they played games with the contract and the state called their bluff.

Isn't this the contract which gave the state the right to cancel at any time for any reason, even if the system was completely built out and operational? If I read that original contract correctly, signing it could have put Motorola in the position of completely building out the system, the state of Florida then deciding they didn't like the color of the repeater housings (or the smell of the battery packs, or the tactile feel of the fetzer valve or whatever kind of BS excuse they could come up with), and /\/\ then having to rip everything out and swallow a multi-million dollar loss while Florida skipped merrily tra-la through the Florida swamps to the L3Harris HQ. I would have been reluctant to sign a contract like that, too.

And while I'm no Motorola fan-boi (I'm not actually a fan of any particular brand as long as the dang thing works), I've heard more horror stories about large Harris systems having teething pains versus Motorola systems.

 

[MTS2000des]

And while I'm no Motorola fan-boi (I'm not actually a fan of any particular brand as long as the dang thing works), I've heard more horror stories about large Harris systems having teething pains versus Motorola systems.

Las Vegas Metro "Desert Sky", PA's Broken Sky failure...Harris/MA/Com/Tyco...yeah, I remember those. Harris does have a good P25 offering system wise with VIDA which, compared to the technical abortion that was OpenSky, is on par with Astro 25, and EFWood's Atlas portfolio. Hopefully Florida will get what it pays for.

 

[kb4mdz]

More agencies should do what Harry S Truman did during a new plane development cycle.

Plane in question was having serious defects which led to little problems like pilots being killed and bigger problems like wasting lots of money & time.
Company said "But it meets your specifications!"
Harry shot back "It's killing pilots! The project hereby cancelled!!"
Company: "You can't do that!"
Harry: "I can't? Hell, I just did! And it will stay that way until YOU fix the problems!"

 

[OpenCarrier]

I know the salesmen have to make a sale I don't fault them for that but some stuff ya just don't need....

 

[mmckenna]

I know the salesmen have to make a sale I don't fault them for that but some stuff ya just don't need....

Glad I never worked in sales. I have standards and ethics that probably wouldn't mesh well with that line of work.

 

[bharvey2]

Not relevant to the conversation but when I saw "grave disservice" I envision Jack Nicholson saying "Is there any other kind?" Although, having been involved with vendors spec'ing their wares I find it equally comical.

 

[mmckenna]

Although, having been involved with vendors spec'ing their wares I find it equally comical.

Yeah, I had Motorola sales tell me a few whoppers. I guess they figured I wouldn't know. I will say, made the final decision really easy. One vendor lied to me, the other was honest.

 

[OpenCarrier]

Yeah, I had Motorola sales tell me a few whoppers. I guess they figured I wouldn't know. I will say, made the final decision really easy. One vendor lied to me, the other was honest.

Wanna listen to your local PD sir? Sir?? I have this AOR MARK III.... Or this New service monitor?

 

[12dbsinad]

Glad I never worked in sales. I have standards and ethics that probably wouldn't mesh well with that line of work.

We had corporate Motorola big wig sales guy visit out shop many years ago. This was back when we actually serviced stuff in house and had a large parts inventory. The gentleman asked one of the repair techs what we do if we received a radio with a broken channel selector, vol control, etc. The tech said we usually evaluate and give a quote, normally the repair is performed, radio is tested, and sent back to the customer with a good bill of health.

The Motorola guy proceeded to say "well...... that's not what I wanted to hear. We are in business to sell product."

I will never forget that day, and the bad taste it left in my mouth. This jogged my memory when you mentioned standards and ethics.

 

[mmckenna]

We had corporate Motorola big wig sales guy visit out shop many years ago. This was back when we actually serviced stuff in house and had a large parts inventory. The gentleman asked one of the repair techs what we do if we received a radio with a broken channel selector, vol control, etc. The tech said we usually evaluate and give a quote, normally the repair is performed, radio is tested, and sent back to the customer with a good bill of health.

The Motorola guy proceeded to say "well...... that's not what I wanted to hear. We are in business to sell product."

I will never forget that day, and the bad taste it left in my mouth. This jogged my memory when you mentioned standards and ethics.

Yep, when we were getting ready to reband, Motorola showed up with 2-3 techs and about 5 sales people. Discussion of rebanding took second seat to them trying to sell us a brand new P25 system. Once they realized there was no sale involved, all the sales people disappeared.

Don't get me wrong, they make good stuff (mostly), but having to deal with the marketing/sales stuff is just aggravating. I think that's why we see a lot of Motorola fans on this page, but they are end users or hobbyists, not techs.

 

[bharvey2]

The Motorola guy proceeded to say "well...... that's not what I wanted to hear. We are in business to sell product."

I will never forget that day, and the bad taste it left in my mouth. This jogged my memory when you mentioned standards and ethics.

I've never been one to suffer unsavory sales people well. They tend to bring out the worst in me. I'll have to say that I give you much credit for ending with nothing but a bad taste in your mouth.