fasteddy64
Member
Interesting. Here on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi I have at least 3 YSF repeaters I can access. Zero DMR. Zero Dstar. Far from dead here.
Ham Radio Digital Modes: Which Will Survive The Test of Time?
- Thread starter JASII
- Start date
There aren't a lot of repeaters in Gulfport period. It definitely varies from one location to another, but nationwide and worldwide, YSF is absolutely dead compared to the other modes.
Yaesu Fusion sucked until they released their updated Wires-X software allowing a handheld to connect with PC, cable and computer with Internet access. Previously one also needed an HRI-200, a mobile radio, plus the computer and cable.
Fellow hams/buddies that moved use it to stay in touch with several of us. I use it when traveling. A group of us use it locally as much as analog. I also still use P25 though. DMR and D-Star are reasonably dead in central California.
Fellow hams/buddies that moved use it to stay in touch with several of us. I use it when traveling. A group of us use it locally as much as analog. I also still use P25 though. DMR and D-Star are reasonably dead in central California.
kb9mwr
Member
I like this but I am not sure it has any compelling features to sell itself over the other modes (or ones that the majority care about) And till its something one can buy off a shelf I don't consider it here yet.
With certain Icom radios that have both HF coverage and D-STAR capability, you can do D-STAR on HF: D-STAR HF Net - D-STAR Info
The compelling feature is that it's open source and uses an open source CODEC. No reliance on an individual radio manufacturer, like with Yaesu System Fusion or D-STAR (yes, I know, Kenwood has produced a D-STAR radio in the past, but they don't now). No reliance on a single CODEC manufacturer.
fasteddy64
Member
Once again I will say interesting.
I lived in Texas for 31 years (Abilene) and there was no DMR there. Dstar tried to make a showing for a while but quickly fizzled.
They actually just put up a Fusion repeater in the last two years so I guess they didnt get the memo either.
Gulfport may not have many repeaters but there are plenty in the immediate area and I would say once again, far more Fusion in Mississippi than any other mode.
Then again, I still prefer non internet connected radio so I will probably always be in the minority as far as digital stuff goes.
73,
Ed
KG5UN
I too believe that the future of voice communications on radio is digital.
There is digital voice being used on HF - The application I've tried is called 'FreeDV'. There is a complete executable that will put FreeDV on a Windows PC, but there are challenges - such as needing two sound cards. The folks who are trying to use it or develop it are really really nice people, and very sincere, but if my own experiences with any of the several modes offered within FreeDV, it has a long, long way to go. The claims notwithstanding, my experience is that the HF path must be very stable and the SNR very good. The newer digital formats are only about 2/3 the width of a properly set up SSB signal, which is interesting... but I've only managed one contact so far.
The military has used digital voice on HF for decades. But the price tag is just a little outside the reach of most hams. By a couple or three zeros to the left of the decimal point.
When I had an IC-9100 with a D-Star card I tried D-Star on HF a few times too. Once again, it was an exercise in frustation. People achieving success with the HF digital modes seem (and this is just my observation - I'm wrong regularly) to be using a lot of power or are within driving distance of each other. I don't own an amplifier and don't intend to own one. Until guys like me can enjoy reasonably comfortable digital voice comms on HF at 100W or less, I think it's a no-go. I won't stop trying it, though.
Trust me to say that I very much expect the VHF/UHF digital mode champ, universally accepted by hams everywhere and available on every radio brand, will be greatly different than whatever finally works well on HF. May I live to see it happen...
I agree, but it's not going to happen overnight.
I'm personally rooting for DMR for VHF and above. It's not the most advanced, and probably not the best digital modulation format, but it's widely accepted and open source. I don't like D-Star or YSF because they are only supported by one vendor, each and there are no commercial quality radios from any vendor.
DMR is well supported on the commercial side, but so far only the Chicom manufacturers have adopted it for amateur radios. I hope that will change (but I'm not holding my breath).
Digital voice on HF remains a mystery for me. I know it will happen...sometime. But I also remember the transition from AM to SSB and the acrimony that generated. I agree with @K74ag 's assessment of trying HF digital.
And I'll say again, all you have to do is look at the userbase. There are over 202,000 unique call signs with DMR IDs worldwide, over 89,000 in the US. More than 1 out of every 10 hams in the US have a DMR ID. Let that sink in for a minute.
No other mode comes anywhere close to that.....not even somewhat close.You can keep saying how there are no DMR repeaters near you until the cows come home. That doesn't change the facts.
Next time anyone goes to a club meeting, ask members to raise their hands if they have a DMR ID. Then ask them to raise their hand if they had a QSO in the last month using DMR. One can ask further if it was via simplex, repeater, or hot spot. Might as well ask if they used it in the last year. You know, really get some local facts about actual DMR use.
I have two DMR ID’s, one is for testing stuff. Anyways, at least seven other local amateurs I know have a DMR ID. None have used it in the last year or more. Signing up for a free ID and actually owning a DMR radio and using it are some facts to sort out.
Some of us mainly/only use our DMR ID with P25 on Motorola radios which sends it when we PTT. Yep, a DMR ID being used for P25 and not DMR. I wonder how many others do the same.
Still, two simultaneous DMR QSO’s on one repeater is pretty damn cool. Unfortunately they’re not using Kenwood NEXEDGE radios, so the audio sucks and radios get turned off.
I have two DMR ID’s, one is for testing stuff. Anyways, at least seven other local amateurs I know have a DMR ID. None have used it in the last year or more. Signing up for a free ID and actually owning a DMR radio and using it are some facts to sort out.
Some of us mainly/only use our DMR ID with P25 on Motorola radios which sends it when we PTT. Yep, a DMR ID being used for P25 and not DMR. I wonder how many others do the same.
Still, two simultaneous DMR QSO’s on one repeater is pretty damn cool. Unfortunately they’re not using Kenwood NEXEDGE radios, so the audio sucks and radios get turned off.
I use my DMR ID for DMR and CCS7 ID for P25 although if you have multiple radios its a challenge. Alot of times I'll hand my other APX to my wife to use (She is licensed) but I dont change the ID on the fly so its causes issues.
That's like saying that because there are 846,000 amateur radio licenses issued by the FCC, that amateur radio must be popular because
To piggyback on vagrant's comment, here's an experiment for you. Go to the search page on radioid.net (RadioID - Database). Search for DMR IDs for a city near you (the search will be limited to 100 results). Wow! Look at all those DMR IDs! I ran the search for Indianapolis and out of 100 DMR IDs, only 20 had been heard on DMR. A few only twice. I'm sure the results for your area will be different.
I'm not sure we have an accurate means of measuring digital voice activity that fairly counts active users. Just like we don't have an accurate means of fairly counting the number of licensees who actually get on the air. Claiming that one mode is more popular than another becomes an argument with no reliable answer. (And, anyone who bases their opinion of System Fusion popularity based on Repeaterbook listings of YSF repeaters is, to be blunt, a fool. While many Yaesu DR-1X and DR-2X repeaters have been sold, not all of them have a WIRES-X connection and not all of them have YSF mode enabled.)
This whole thread started with a YouTube video from a ham in Minnesota who has a reputation, with me, at least, of making videos designed more to attract viewers than to provide useful content. Almost 100 posts later and, because we can't see the future, we still don't know which digital voice mode "will survive the test of time".
The one constant that I keep seeing over and over again in these threads is that individual amateur radio operators will make broad assumptions and grand statements based solely on their own experience. There's no way that a ham from Mississippi, California, or Indiana can know what goes on in the other guy's area (unless they've travelled there recently). So, just stop assuming that you know the weight of the world based on the speck of dust that just landed on your shoulder.
Last edited:
So to be fair I use P25 all the time on 2M and 440. I also use DMR but less frequent. I've only used either on a hotspot or a repeater a few times. But use P25 daily in simplex mode. So I agree the log may show folks dont use it but I am sure some are like me and use it in simplex alot. Both my repeaters are P25 but neither are linked to anything.
DeoVindice
P25 Underground
Me, for one. I used DMR via hotspot twice and was unimpressed, and via local repeater once and was appalled at the audio quality. I need to sell my DMR equipment since it just sits while my P25 equipment gets used close to daily.
Remember that many amateurs enjoy having a conversation, so audio quality helps. If all of those DMR CCR’s had the audio quality of a Kenwood 5300, this thread would have fewer posts. DMR has some nice features with sending messages and dual slots.
The “test of time“ must deal with the fact that most amateur operators will not drop $1k or more for a VHF/UHF radio, especially if it is a handheld. DMR CCR’s allowed operators to share codeplugs using the same model radio because many are unable to program it themselves. Older Motorola P25 radios cost less than new amateur radios, but the inability to acquire and use CPS pushed many away from that.
Whatever repeater owners support also carries a lot of weight, but a hotspot has changed things for many. Life is short, have fun. We’ll all be dead before a particular digital mode survives the test of time, probably because it does not yet exist.
The “test of time“ must deal with the fact that most amateur operators will not drop $1k or more for a VHF/UHF radio, especially if it is a handheld. DMR CCR’s allowed operators to share codeplugs using the same model radio because many are unable to program it themselves. Older Motorola P25 radios cost less than new amateur radios, but the inability to acquire and use CPS pushed many away from that.
Whatever repeater owners support also carries a lot of weight, but a hotspot has changed things for many. Life is short, have fun. We’ll all be dead before a particular digital mode survives the test of time, probably because it does not yet exist.
Hotspots have,, indeed, changed things--and not necessarily for the better. I know there are significant gaps in repeater coverage, especially digital repeaters and hot spots can fill those coverage gaps. But I think too many users will use a hotspot instead of a local repeater and their handheld just becomes an expensive wireless microphone connected to the Internet. Yes, technically this is an RF connection, but the curmudgeon in me says this really isn't ham radio. I recall a post some time ago depicting radio contesting in the near future--it was a photo of folks at computer terminals wearing headsets.
BMDaug
I am licensed…
FT-8 is pretty popular on HF these days! Lots of the guys in our club that DX love it because, as many of you know, there is plenty of noise on HF and FT-8 excels in high noise environments! It’s
I’m a P25 guy myself… I’m actually about to install my first repeater. It’s a Tait TB9100 dual mode P25 and analog. It’s banded for VHF which is perfect for the mountains and will even do P25 trunking… A guy can dream right? I like P25 for a number of reasons, but my interest in public safety radio systems and trunking definitely drives that preference.
-B
I’m a P25 guy myself… I’m actually about to install my first repeater. It’s a Tait TB9100 dual mode P25 and analog. It’s banded for VHF which is perfect for the mountains and will even do P25 trunking… A guy can dream right? I like P25 for a number of reasons, but my interest in public safety radio systems and trunking definitely drives that preference.
-B
Ummmmmm. Try your math again.
846,259 / 326,700,000 = 0.26%. It is not 2.5% or anywhere close to that.In any event, my point absolutely still stands. Whether they are on the air constantly or not, 1 in 10 amateurs in the US had enough interest in DMR in the past few years to apply for an ID. That is A LOT of interest. There is just no comparison when you compare that to other digital modes. It is nowhere close.
Absolutely silly. I guess someone from Mississippi, California, or Indiana can't use statistics? The thread is discussing the survival of a digital mode in amateur radio....not the survival of a digital mode in certain US cities. Local use in the "other guy's area" makes absolutely no difference. None. The fact of the matter is that DMR is absolutely hands down the most used digital mode in amateur radio, worldwide. There is no other mode that comes anywhere close.
Similar threads
