Help with antenna placement on 2024 F450

[sumradioguy]

Not sure where you are located, and why you'd use VHF. Can you elaborate?

Canada. Many of the truckers have switched to VHF in the past 10 years. Mostly Alberta and BC.

Also, I like the distance and the protocol/formality of VHF. I use it for marine all the time.

CB is first, though, as it is used when I travel through the USA and for short-distance communications.

 

[slowmover]

LADD channels up there in western Canuckistan. You’d be outside licensing (look into it), but it’s the standard. CB is pretty quiet.

Thing about CB is this: the politics situation gets wonky and comms now matter most. That’ll be with CB. Canyada is an exception with LADD in some areas, but not wholly.

NMO27 sux. Bigly. Get NMO30 or 34. 64” whip.
$75 Nano-VNA is your friend. Beats using a $450 antenna analyzer from just a few years ago. Durability may be an issue, that’s why I’ll spend and get a RigExpert instead (or in addition to).

VHF has its place. But it’s about reaching Joe Average that is priority. The other services are what one works out with others almost in advance. Low potential otherwise given possible number of users across platforms.

As the population is all near the American border, remember that the artifice of a boundary can change instantly. Wanting best Citizen Band performance too late may be a problem.



You’re here. That’s not coincidence as I see it. Excellent place for research on procedure & gear. Do it Once, and Do it Right.

As a truck driver I can tell you that CB is a lifeline, a party line and a punch line. All are welcomed after familiarization.

The NMO27’s (or 3’ fiberglass) can’t hear anyone. Past poor installation and obsolete gear (since 2023), this accounts for why the, “CB is dead” meme gets passed around by the gatekeepers and malefactors. The solution is available and there’s experience to back it found on these pages.

Bottom line is that when you need it, you really need it. Same as concealed carry or seatbelts.

It’s a bad day to be have lost a windshield wiper and have a headlight go out. Spares are needed. An excellent CB pays for itself with but one incidence of need.

My radio rig (big truck; $1,300) earns me that several times annually (details apply).

A pickup is dead simple compared to a big truck installation. But very few (almost none) ever bother to get it right.

An EE is a natural for the tech side (see link in my earlier post re mobile installation). Becoming conversant with CB “protocol” and tendencies takes longer. It’s an isolated world. At present . Folks get their dander up, it’ll clean itself almost automatically. No one will put up with those bent on interfering with a man going about business for his family.

IOW, don’t let what you may hear today prevent what’s possible coming about when you and everyone else wants back on the air.

I earlier recommended this thread for pleasure. One man’s journey. Here’s his latest. It’s a bit of work to get here:

Post in thread 'New to CB and New to the Forum...'
New to CB and New to the Forum...

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[mmckenna]

Canada. Many of the truckers have switched to VHF in the past 10 years. Mostly Alberta and BC.

Also, I like the distance and the protocol/formality of VHF. I use it for marine all the time.

CB is first, though, as it is used when I travel through the USA and for short-distance communications.

LADD/VHF channels require a license, and the license procedure in Canada is different than what I deal with here in the states. I know the process isn't difficult, but I'm not the one to give advice.
I know a lot of truckers use LADD, and off roaders/travelers have been using it when on the back roads.

If you're not sure about usage, it may be worth trying a scanner to see if you hear enough traffic on those LADD channels to make it worthwhile for you. A decent VHF radio won't be inexpensive, so a cheap scanner might be a good first step.

CB is up to you. It's a resource that can work for many, and what you hear in your local travels will be different than my experiences. Wouldn't hurt to have one installed.

 

[sumradioguy]

@slowmover

Thanks, slowmover! Your posts are always both informative and a pleasure to read.

Are there any real differences between the NMO30, NMO34, and NMO37? Can they all handle a 64" whip? Is the NMO mount itself a critical factor, or are you just recommending that I pair an NMO 30/34/37 coil with a 64" whip?

I'm a bit limited by what's available locally—only NMO27 mounts are in stock. I'm also struggling to find the parts online in Canada or the US to build an NMO30+ system. Any links or product recommendations would be appreciated!

If I go with one of those setups, will it need additional tuning? Are there any good resources or articles on tuning to 27 MHz?

@mmckenna

I understand. I have an ROC-M (Radiotelephone Operator’s General Certificate - Maritime). According to the whitepapers, thanks to my marine VHF license, I can apply for a BASIC ROC-L (Land VHF) license without needing to take the land-based VHF course. If you're interested, here's the link:
ROC-L Information

However, with just the BASIC qualification, I can’t use channels 16 and below; I’d need an advanced license for that. Here’s more info if you’d like to check it out:
Standards for Amateur Radio in Canada (see "Schedule I: Frequency bands and bandwidths for use by amateur stations operating in Canada").

I agree that CB is the priority for now, but I might consider VHF in the future since I’m already ROC-M licensed and could extend that to ROC-L without taking an additional course.

Thanks all! This is all so helpful so that I don't become the guy with a crappy setup. I would have spent a lot of money going around in circles.

 

[KB4MSZ]

I can drill. It's a truck and it's mine, so lets make some holes.

This has got to be a first

 

[sumradioguy]

This has got to be a first

Haha

I own a boat. I have made so many holes in that with my antennas, outriggers, pulling cables, installing new hardware, that I'm not shy of making gaping holes in things to do things right. I trust the people here way more than the local sales guy. That's what these forums are for—people who absolutely live and breathe this stuff.

And my boat better be waterproof, lol. I'm certain the truck will have no issues. If there is an issue with water, I'll just use 3M 4200 sealant, and that problem will be gone. It works when I put holes in my hull that are consistently underwater; it'll work on the roof of a land-based truck.

The only issue I'm worried about with the truck is its thin aluminum body. The boat is made of fiberglass, so using dissimilar metals is not an issue. Typically, if I have to add a backer plate to a fiberglass part, then I add 316 stainless, and the problem is gone. With the truck, I also need to ensure I add isolators between the aluminum body and the stainless plate. I could use aluminum plate as well, I guess.

 

[KB4MSZ]

If you carry through with this, you will render your truck unseaworthy.

 

[sumradioguy]

If you carry through with this, you will render your truck unseaworthy.

I sea what you did there.

 

[mmckenna]

@mmckenna

I understand. I have an ROC-M (Radiotelephone Operator’s General Certificate - Maritime). According to the whitepapers, thanks to my marine VHF license, I can apply for a BASIC ROC-L (Land VHF) license without needing to take the land-based VHF course. If you're interested, here's the link:
ROC-L Information

Your existing license is for the Marine radio services. That license can be used to help you get an amateur radio license.

LADD channels are not amateur radio. You need a separate license for those. An amateur radio license will not cover you on LADD channels.

Amateur radio is a separate radio service, and it may be something you'd be interested in. But an amateur radio license does not grant you privileges to transmit on LADD channels.

 

[sumradioguy]

Today I learned. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[mmckenna]

Today I learned. Thanks for letting me know.

I'd still try the scanner first and see if the LADD channels sound like they'd be useful. Next time I'm up there, I was going to program them into my VHF mobile just to see what I'd hear.

 

[slowmover]

1). By report (truck drivers of my acquaintance) the OVERSIZE loads departing Houston for transit to Calgary, LADD is an automatic assumption once across the border. The truck traffic from Anchorage to Seattle and back depends upon it as there are several routes one could use (scheduled service).

2). My son made the 4,000+ mile drive from Ft Worth, TX to Anchorage, AK two years ago using what then was best (PRESIDENT McKinley + SIRIO 5000) and reported that it really was dead on 11M in his daytime trips (early December). This was a radio rig we installed here using best practice. (KENWOOD KES-5 extension speaker). Had there been radio traffic, he’d have caught it being on main route Montana to Calgary. Next to nothing.

3). I bring up LADD as (again, by report) it is the useful service to have. What that entails, etc, is past my remit. Im told its not as prevalent as one works his way east.

4). As this solar propagation cycle has enabled Skip to be hot & heavy, it’s not been unusual (just unwelcome) that it’s also Canadian interlopers on the travelers channel (AM-19; 27.185) when all not on the road haven’t any business playing DX when so many other channels exist (plus Sideband).

5). Were I a Canadian citizen I’d look closely at the gear required and the licensing needed. But it’s also an outlaw thing where necessity drives installation & possible use (breakdown; warning of fires; etc). To this end I’d want the requisite gear for an installation (limits of WHAT? to each individual) if my travels took me to the outlying regions.

The sidebar to this is that the halfway point of the drive (above) isn’t in the USA. And that the Alaskan portion is a couple hundred miles.

To call rural Canada “huge” still underplays the vastness.

— Radio service in one’s family Conestoga (should it come to that) needs all bases covered to plan a rooftop antenna farm.

— As to NMO30 vs NMO34 I’ve seen the latter chosen more often. What I know is that Height = Might (total antenna length and clearance closest to 14’) so that’d be my guide. A Nano-VNA has a learning curve, but we won’t embarrass an EE it might take him some tries to get a handle on it. (Too many Utube vids that aren’t very good). The LAIRD CWB-27 (obsolete) is the model. Said to occasionally show up on eBay NOS.

Radio is a sport for grown men. Never-ending questions and debates on problem-solving. A great place to put that squirrely energy which might otherwise put us in contention with wives and children. Neighbors & friends.

Linked it earlier, but here is the reference for all installation topics. Most apply to 11M

KØBG.COM

A Web Site For Mobile Amateur Radio Operators

www.k0bg.com

@mmckenna is a guru as are some others
(experience & theoretical grasp). The related Install subforum will have discussions relevant to your needs in re a better plan.

What I have is constant use (2,000-hours @ 12-14-hrs/day at 300-days annually; nationwide) and the difficulties of big truck install. Is it worth spending to achieve “high performance?” kind of questions. (Yes; pleasure & necessity. And don’t be put off by the yahoos on-air, a HP rig drives right thru them based on clarity TX & DX).

Given your experience-depth elsewhere, consider that some documentation of your pickup installation is a help to others. What drives me as models are hard to find.

A). Systems dominate (components are plug-in’s)

B). Best Practice (k0bg plus RR).

C). Some quantification (Smith Chart).

To me, these are the master headings.

Experience is that the great clarity today available (since 2023 w/NRC radios) is a revolution generally. Most folks are trapped in a major metro region and this isn’t as obvious as when far rural.

The pointed example is a headlong rush at an accident still-occurring (pile-up) which will change one’s life irrevocably. A mile or two of warning isn’t sufficient to avoid that entanglement.

As a driver we listen for key words and phrases. But “just info” isn’t sufficient when compared to how something is spoken. “Context” can be everything.

Best 11M Radio Rig today isn't at all like what 1989 delivered. It’s on another plateau altogether when we are alerted and straining to hear everything possible.

.

 

[nokones]

Just a note, I wouldn't attempt to use the Ladd channels in the US. These freqs are allocated to the Part 90.20 Public Safety Pool

 

[sumradioguy]

So I finally had time to start routing power wires and the antenna for my CB install.

Here if my less than 300 miles 2024 F450 all in pieces



I routed a 10AWG (marine) wire from my upfitter fuses in my engine bay (straight to the battery) under the truck and up through the carpet into a new fuse box that I installed in the kick panel. It then is routed up into my center dash tray above the center screen. I also routed a 15ft S-MR400 cable from the center dash tray through the dash, up my A-frame pillar, back through the passenger side top of the roof under the headliner, and ending up at the rear center of the truck behind my moonroof.



My intent was to install it in the middle of what metal I have behind the moonroof of the F450, however upon dropping the head liner, I found that there is a plastic frame that holds motors and routes wires for the moonroof where I want to put the hole for the NMO mount. There is also a bolt holding that frame right in the middle. This is obviously a problem. Now I could drop the entire head liner, carve into the plastic beside the bolt, and then drill the hole, but just removing all the parts in the front to fully drop the headliner is a big PITA. Even then, I'd have to carve into the moonroof's plastic housing. Picture below showing the rear of the truck under the head liner. The plastic part is the back of the moonroof's housing.



Here's a closer picture showing the bolt in the middle as well:



Here's what the sunroof housing looks like. I found this on another video where some guy removed his entire sunroof (pictured below). The bolt in the middle beside the motor is what we're looking at in my picture above.





That bolt and plastic housing are right where I want to put the NMO hole (pictured below):




However, I could remove the third brake light and drill the hole easily here (picture below) without carving into the moonroof's plastic housing. It would be so much less painful and work-intensive.



What does everyone think? Is it worth the extra day of work to drop the entire head liner, carve into the moonroof's plastic to gain a few inches of metal forward?

 

[sumradioguy]

This is what another guy did to put the hole in through his third light area. Should I do this instead?

 

[mmckenna]

So I finally had time to start routing power wires and the antenna for my CB install.

What does everyone think? Is it worth the extra day of work to drop the entire head liner, carve into the moonroof's plastic to gain a few inches of metal forward?

The roof is double wall. The NMO mounts don't require dropping the headliner and everything else like that. But since you did, it makes it easy to see.

You could likely still drill in the same location and route the coax back towards the third brake light.


But, since you've got this far, and the limitation on ground plane isn't going to change drastically, I'd probably do this, if I was in your shoes:

This is what another guy did to put the hole in through his third light area. Should I do this instead?
View attachment 171774View attachment 171773View attachment 171772View attachment 171771

That'll make life easier and allow you to see both side of the mount. Since this looks like your first NMO install, that will increase your comfort level. Doing your first one blind take some faith, so work with what you have. You can just route the coax over to the left or right and down the rear pillar. Just stay out of the air bag deployment zone.

 

[sumradioguy]

The only way I see I wouldn't need to drop my headliner is if I used a mount that had a wire that didn't pass through the top of the vehicle. I know they exist. I was looking to have the wire hidden.

So you don't think the few inches I'll gain will make a huge diff?

 

[mmckenna]

Standard NMO mounts are designed to drop through the 3/4" hole from the outside. You fish the cable from outside into the interior of the truck, then walk the mount in by dipping the cable port end in first, sliding it in as far as you can until the back drops in, then threading the ring on the outside.

Few inches of ground plane isn't going to make a huge difference, and this is going to work better than the compromise mounting locations.

 

[slowmover]

Glad you came to this RR sub-forum?

Sure is easy to get hung up at this point.

I like the research that you posted. Helps everyone who’ll read this.

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[sumradioguy]

Glad you came to this RR sub-forum?

Sure is easy to get hung up at this point.

I like the research that you posted. Helps everyone who’ll read this.

.

Absolutely. You guys have been awesome. Once I'm complete I'll try to do a video or lots of pictures and document the process for others to use and learn from. It's all about giving back, not just taking. Thanks!

The NMO34 mount is special order from my local shop and is going to take 3-4 weeks. In the meantime, I'm going to pick up an NMO27 mount and try that with the 49" whip. When I get the NMO34B with the W640 (64" whip) I'll compare them as well and post the results.