How Far Away Are We From An HT Sized Device That Accesses Digital Talkgroups Without The Hotspot or RF?

[kb9mwr]

To which I would say that identification of their transmitter is their problem, not yours. Since you are not transmitting over amateur radio, but over an IP connection, you are not transmitting in the amateur radio service and the amateur radio identification rules do not apply to you...only to the station that is relaying your IP communications to amateur radio. Just my opinion.

I believe this was the regulatory explanation on the VOIP for Amateur Radio book that I read a few years back. And it furthered to explain that all conversations that come over the internet and are transmitted over ham frequencies are to be treated as 3rd party traffic.

 

[kb9mwr]

Back to the original thread question..

One of the problems impeding why we currently don't have a device that accesses the talkgroups/reflectors directly without a hotspot is the fact that nobody that I know of is working on improving the open source AMBE that we have for D-Star.

As of 2017 the AMBE used in D-Star is out of patent. But all we have to decode (contained in dsd/mbelib) its a crude proof of concept code set figured out by some great folks here (radioreference) from around 2013.

From user groovy Jun 26 2015:
"If anybody wants to continue the research / work, I suggest you look at the osmocom GMR code that Sylvain Munaut worked on. Those phones use a similar codec - I believe with longer frames for the satellite latency. Initially he used the mbelib code, enhanced it for things like tone support, but he later rewrote the synthesis code completely. See OsmocomGMR for his presentations and source code. "

This COVID-19 time at home would be a good opportunity for someone to work on this. I am not much of a programmer, nor do I have the math credentials for such as task. However, I will do my part to make sure anyone who step up to the task gets recognized for their contribution to advancing the hobby.

Please help spread the word if you can think of someone who might have the needed talent for this project.

 

[N4VKF]

Have you seen the Rfinder products? RFinder.shop 4G cellular and DMR rolled into one device. It is
a us version of the Runbo products distributed in Europe. Runbo M1

 

[JASII]

Have you seen the Rfinder products? RFinder.shop 4G cellular and DMR rolled into one device. It is a US version of the Runbo products distributed in Europe. Runbo M1.

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I have been following that.

Rfinder B1+ Dual Band DMR 4G/LTE DMRoIP

This package includes DMRoIP and APRS-IS integration. DMRoIP allows connecting to DMR networks via 4G or Wi-Fi, in case a local repeater or hotspot aren’t within reach. This means that you wi…

rfinder.shop

 

[mmckenna]

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I have been following that.

Rfinder B1+ Dual Band DMR 4G/LTE DMRoIP

This package includes DMRoIP and APRS-IS integration. DMRoIP allows connecting to DMR networks via 4G or Wi-Fi, in case a local repeater or hotspot aren’t within reach. This means that you wi…

rfinder.shop

I've looked at those a few times. Looks like an interesting product.

Concern I have with them is that cover outside the amateur radio bands yet the company does not show any FCC ID. To me that's a red flag. The Chinese companies like to ignore laws/rules in the USA, and I prefer not to support them. I'd be interested if they did have a valid FCC type certification on those radios and are just not sharing it on the website.

 

[N4KVE]

A local guy helps the importer of those devices at ham fests. Whenever I hear him on it, his audio is terrible. He uses it when he goes to Long Island, & listening to him here in Florida, it’s just awful. But when he’s here on the local system using his Mororola radio, he sounds fine. I wouldn’t buy that device for $200.

 

[mmckenna]

A local guy helps the importer of those devices at ham fests. Whenever I hear him on it, his audio is terrible. He uses it when he goes to Long Island, & listening to him here in Florida, it’s just awful. But when he’s here on the local system using his Mororola radio, he sounds fine. I wouldn’t buy that device for $200.

Got it. Baofeng audio + cheap cell phone for $1,100.00. I'll pass.

 

[wb8lea]

I have an RFinder B1. It has become my primary DMR radio. On the positive side, it has NO codeplugs. When I was travelling last winter I found the DMR to be pretty useless without a hotspot. If you're driving through an area there is no ability to find the local repeater info, pull out your PC, alter the codeplug, and upload the new codeplug to the radio. The B1 fixes this. It finds the local repeaters and you can program the repeater into the radio with a single tap. It also serves for Echolink, Peanut, Zello, and practically any Android app that you may want to use. Also, it is a cellphone in the case you need to call emergency services directly.

On the negative, I have had a number of serious problems with the radio. HOWEVER, the support has been wonderful and they have resolved my problems (usually within hours). Right now it does not eliminate the need for a hotspot if you don't have a local repeater, but that is coming. I've had the radio for about a month and I am a satisfied customer today.

WB8LEA

 

[kb9mwr]

>How Far Away Are We From An HT Sized Device That Accesses Digital Talkgroups Without The Hotspot or RF?


It just got a step closer to reality:

DUDE-Star Radio Project

ECU Programming Automotive Electronics Audio Electronics

www.dudetronics.com

The Dude Star app in the google play store allows you to connect over the internet. And now a way to retrofit an analog rig to to more than one digital mode. And it will just get easier as time evolves.

 

[KD8DVR]

>How Far Away Are We From An HT Sized Device That Accesses Digital Talkgroups Without The Hotspot or RF?


It just got a step closer to reality:

DUDE-Star Radio Project

ECU Programming Automotive Electronics Audio Electronics

www.dudetronics.com

The Dude Star app in the google play store allows you to connect over the internet. And now a way to retrofit an analog rig to to more than one digital mode. And it will just get easier as time evolves.

Amateur radio without RF is NOT amateur radio.

 

[kb9mwr]

Amateur radio without RF is NOT amateur radio.

I don't fully agree. But I will admit I feel its better when there is RF as a part of it.

I know a lot of people who aren't overly on-the-air active. But those guys are an integral part of amateur radio as they are, tuning up repeaters, coding software, going to meetings to elmer, etc.

To each their own. And for what its worth this I have always felt this fad of using a HT to talk maybe 50 feet into an internet connected hot spot is dumb and simply doesn't appeal to me. The really stupid part to me is having to have a whole collection of HT's to use the different modes, all to talk 50 feet. Doug's Dude-Star project finally made sense to me. Hook it to a radio to access a repeater or work simplex via RF. Or screw the 50 feet non-sense and use his dudestar android app to talk directly over the internet, and come out on RF.

Now if there were just a few more people like Travis Goodspeed hacking radio firmware, maybe we'd be closer to a HT that does more than one mode.

/rant

 

[Citywide173]

I will admit that I have not fully read the thread, but a couple of observations.

This already exists (and has for some time) in the form of network radio.

There is no such thing as a "radio" that doesn't use RF....amateur radio without RF is an oxymoron.

 

[kb9mwr]

I will admit that I have not fully read the thread, but a couple of observations.

This already exists (and has for some time) in the form of network radio.

There is no such thing as a "radio" that doesn't use RF....amateur radio without RF is an oxymoron.

There are two forms of the Dude Radio project, one is a app for a smart phone that allows direct access to the various digital networks. The other, and more recent and interesting is a way to support multiple digital modes using an existing analog radio (RF).

 

[Citywide173]

There are two forms of the Dude Radio project, one is a app for a smart phone that allows direct access to the various digital networks. The other, and more recent and interesting is a way to support multiple digital modes using an existing analog radio (RF).

Zello has existed for over a decade and many other PTT apps have been developed since. Anything that uses the cellular network or WiFi is using RF, which seems to be the sticking point here. Whenever a wireless technology is used, there is RF. Even if you are accessing via a computer, if there is a radio attached somewhere, RF is involved, so the answer to the question "How Far Away Are We From An HT Sized Device That Accesses Digital Talkgroups Without The Hotspot or RF?" is never.

 

[bill4long]

Or just use this software on your existing device(s)
Software to RX/TX D-STAR, DMR, Fusion YSF, NXDN, and P25 reflectors and repeaters/gateways over UDP

The AMBE vocoder in that projects violates U.S. patents. If you don't care about that, that could be an option.

 

[mmckenna]

Does not appear to be available in the US yet, but Icom is advertising this guy:

IP730D IP740D | Products | Icom Inc.

Icom,Global,Land Mobile,Marine,Aviation,Amateur,Receivers,Satellite,LTE,WLAN,IP,Digital,Analog,Radio,Network,D-STAR

www.icomjapan.com

LTE + Analog + IDAS (NXDN) in a VHF -OR- UHF model.

 

[kb9mwr]

The AMBE vocoder in that projects violates U.S. patents. If you don't care about that, that could be an option.

The AMBE vocoder in that projects violates U.S. patents. If you don't care about that, that could be an option.

Only certain modes are covered by the one lingering patent. And for what its worth it should be expired too. It was applied for in 2003, but granted tardily in 2013. And from the number of people I see on this message board paying for DSDPlus fastlane, I'd say most people don't care.

 

[jparks29]

One of the biggest advantages of ham radio is that it's not reliant on much, if any, infrastructure.

Once you start putting in bridges, links, etc. those are all points of failure, and when you start talking about the internet, that's a point of failure outside of your control.

How many regionwide outages have major carriers had? And you want to have your communications rely on that?

 

[kb9mwr]

Well I guess I am old school. Probably more that 90% of a persons daily (cellphone) communication is not essential in my opinion. So when a temporary outage comes along... suck it up. Even if every ham came to help during and outage they'd not be able to carry all that non-essential communication anyway. Ham radio is the horse and buggy approach, which is better than nothing. But we are talking about just priority health and welfare traffic.

Ham radio is more than just emcomm. Some people like to learn and build. That plus there are a good number of apartment/hoa bound hams that aren't really going to be able to do much HF anyway. So if a good VHF/UHF project like this comes along, get off your high horse and congratulate the software developers.

 

[KD8DVR]

Well I guess I am old school. Probably more that 90% of a persons daily (cellphone) communication is not essential in my opinion. So when a temporary outage comes along... suck it up. Even if every ham came to help during and outage they'd not be able to carry all that non-essential communication anyway. Ham radio is the horse and buggy approach, which is better than nothing. But we are talking about just priority health and welfare traffic.

Ham radio is more than just emcomm. Some people like to learn and build. That plus there are a good number of apartment/hoa bound hams that aren't really going to be able to do much HF anyway. So if a good VHF/UHF project like this comes along, get off your high horse and congratulate the software developers.

Problem is, is that this project is *not* UHF or VHF. It doesn't use amateur bands at all. Therefore, not ham radio.