I joined the cult (New XG-100M owner)

[BMDaug]

these two docs are a good start

Nice docs, thanks! I hate that the feature list is a little deceiving when it comes to Unity. There are lots of features that cause confusion (a big one is 23 Narrowband). You have to take TIME into consideration when reading the features list and remember that the list spans 20 years of radio design and regulation.

Early radios were wideband only at launch. The FCC released the narrowband mandate and 23 was introduced… but radios designed/introduced after the mandate were narrowband by default, rendering 23 unnecessary… you’ve got to remember the time scale of this list and realize that not all features apply to all radios because, well, times change!

-B

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

01 Conventional Priority Scan

02 EDACS 3 Site System Scan

03 Public Address

04 EDACS Group Scan

05 EDACS Priority System Scan

06 EDACS/P25 ProScan (ProSound / Wide Area Scan)

07 EDACS/P25 Dynamic Regroup

08 EDACS/P25 Emergency

09 Type 99 Encode and Decode

10 Conventional Emergency

11 RX Preamp

12 Digital Voice

13 VGE Encryption

14 DES Encryption

15 VGS Encryption - User-defined speech encryption

16 EDACS/P25 Mobile Data

17 EDACS/P25 Status/Message

18 EDACS/P25 Test Unit

19 M-RK I Second Bank

20 OpenSky AES Encryption (128-Bit)

21 EDACS Security Key (ESK) / Personality Lock

22 ProFile

23 Narrow Band

24 Auto Power Control

25 OpenSky Voice

26 OpenSky Data

27 OpenSky OTAR

28 OpenSky AES Encryption (256-Bit)

29 ProVoice

30 Limited Feature Expansion (LPE-50/P5100/P5200/M5300)

31 Smart Battery

32 FIPS 140-2

33 P25 Common Air Interface (CAI) – P25 Conventional

34 Direct Frequency Entry

35 P25 Over-The-Air ReKeying (P25 OTAR)

36 Personality Cloning

37 EDACS/P25 AES Encryption (256-Bit)

38 Radio TextLink

39 P25 Trunking

40 700Mhz Only

41 VHF-Low (35-50)

42 VHF-High (136-174)

43 UHF (380-520)

44 700/800 MHz (Dual Band)

45 DES-CFB

46 Vote Scan

47 Phase II TDMA

48 GPS

49 Bluetooth

50 OMAP Wideband Disable

51 MDC1200 Signaling

52 C-TICK Certified Operation

53 Single Key DES

54 Control and Status Services

55 Link Layer Authentication

56 Motorola Multi-Group

57 TSBK on an Analog Channel

58 Unity Wideband Disable

59 eData

60 InBand GPS

61 Encryption Lite (ARC4)

Note that some features (mostly features <32) don’t really apply to the Unity. The 100M includes those and a few others later in the list as standard. So just because your radio lacks those numbers, it doesn’t mean the feature is unsupported.

READ FIRMWARE RELEASE NOTES to determine what features are standard and what features require a feature encryption.

-B

Edit: Oh and 62 is Single Key AES, which I think is the last feature available for the XG series using this feature encryption system. The XL series introduced a completely new .FSS file for feature distribution.

So these radios will do SECURENET CVSD 12 KBPS?

45 DES-CFB

 

[ElroyJetson]

This is the entire list of all orderable features for the XG-100M. Note the encryption features, which are limited, and DES-CFB is not among them.
The XG-100M is not in the XL series and thus the DES-CFB option is not available for it.

 

[Teotwaki]

Ya, with 10’, it won’t matter. Characteristic impedance has to do with how the cable is designed. Of course, measuring end to end, the cable should measure ~0 ohms (unless you’re measuring hundreds or thousands of feet), but the cable expects a certain load to maintain the frequency response outlined in its specifications. Not using a cable with the correct characteristic impedance can attenuate a certain range of frequencies, usually manifesting in a rounded square wave on a scope (since the square wave gets it shape from harmonics of the fundamental). But, at such a short distance, you could use old analog telephone cable or analog microphone cable and nobody would be the wiser. The terminations are necessary because the can signal will reflect back down the wire, effectively causing multiple time-delayed signals to be present on the cable at once.

-B

The cable length actually can matter depending on the leading edge rise time of the data signal you need to transport. That's what I was looking at on the scope with the 100' length of cable I tested. End to end the DC resistance of the cable will not be 0 ohms. For instance, one wire of my cable measures 1.5 ohms of resistance but that is not impedance. The twisted wire has a distributed capacitance and inductance per foot and can be modeled as a transmission line with impedance Z. Twisting the wires creates a more uniform inductance and capacitance per unit length of wire to ensure a constant impedance. I measured my cable at 6.6nH/in and 2.1pF/in which is about right for twisted 18 gauge and calculates to an impedance of 67 ohms. That's close enough to what I measured with the terminating resistor. I had to guess at the dielectric constant to use in the calculator but figured it is some sort of Teflon.

 

[BMDaug]

This is the entire list of all orderable features for the XG-100M. Note the encryption features, which are limited, and DES-CFB is not among them.
The XG-100M is not in the XL series and thus the DES-CFB option is not available for it.


View attachment 144807

Both my 100Ms have DES-CFB. @RFI-EMI-GUY It is supported. To do SecureNet, you also need wideband, since SecureNet is 25KHz. It says DES-CFB is supported in the brochure @Teotwaki posted above. It’s also listed in firmware release notes as supported.

-B

 

[BMDaug]

The cable length actually can matter depending on the leading edge rise time of the data signal you need to transport. That's what I was looking at on the scope with the 100' length of cable I tested. End to end the DC resistance of the cable will not be 0 ohms. For instance, one wire of my cable measures 1.5 ohms of resistance but that is not impedance. The twisted wire has a distributed capacitance and inductance per foot and can be modeled as a transmission line with impedance Z. Twisting the wires creates a more uniform inductance and capacitance per unit length of wire to ensure a constant impedance. I measured my cable at 6.6nH/in and 2.1pF/in which is about right for twisted 18 gauge and calculates to an impedance of 67 ohms. That's close enough to what I measured with the terminating resistor. I had to guess at the dielectric constant to use in the calculator but figured it is some sort of Teflon.

View attachment 144808

Ya, I said that AT YOUR DISTANCE (10’) it wouldn’t matter. Now you’re testing 100’? Of course it matters… 🤷🏼‍♂️

-B

 

[Teotwaki]

Ya, I said that AT YOUR DISTANCE (10’) it wouldn’t matter. Now you’re testing 100’? Of course it matters… 🤷🏼‍♂️

-B

That's akin to claiming someone can cut a 100 foot 50 ohm coaxial transmission line down to 10 feet and it's no longer 50 ohms impedance.

Not how it works.

The inductance and capacitance of a transmission line are UNIFORMLY DISTRIBUTED (all caps shouting like you) and whether the twisted pair (or coaxial cable) is 10 feet or 100 feet it's the same impedance. What a shorter length gets us is less attenuation (which increases with frequency) but not less impedance. BTW, twisted pair cable is a poor man's coaxial cable. Coax has superior noise cancellation because both conductors share the same center axis. Since the wires in the twisted pair cannot occupy the same mechanical center of space, the magnetic fields do not share the exact same center alignment of origin or start point (REGARDLESS OF DISTANCE).

So instead of SHOUTING please share the electromagnetic theory behind "....use old analog telephone cable or analog microphone cable and nobody would be the wiser". I can't seem to find any theory of how they use the analog magnetic field of one wire to counter act or cancel the analog magnetic field of the other wire.

 

[BMDaug]

That's akin to claiming someone can cut a 100 foot 50 ohm coaxial transmission line down to 10 feet and it's no longer 50 ohms impedance.

Not how it works.

The inductance and capacitance of a transmission line are UNIFORMLY DISTRIBUTED (all caps shouting like you) and whether the twisted pair (or coaxial cable) is 10 feet or 100 feet it's the same impedance. What a shorter length gets us is less attenuation (which increases with frequency) but not less impedance. BTW, twisted pair cable is a poor man's coaxial cable. Coax has superior noise cancellation because both conductors share the same center axis. Since the wires in the twisted pair cannot occupy the same mechanical center of space, the magnetic fields do not share the exact same center alignment of origin or start point (REGARDLESS OF DISTANCE).

So instead of SHOUTING please share the electromagnetic theory behind "....use old analog telephone cable or analog microphone cable and nobody would be the wiser". I can't seem to find any theory of how they use the analog magnetic field of one wire to counter act or cancel the analog magnetic field of the other wire.

You’re missing the point here. I’m not teaching a class on characteristic impedance. It’s a difficult topic to grasp. You’re talking about cable capacitance and inductance and the nitty gritty of cable transmission. I’m talking about practical application of standards like the canbus or aes/ebu digital audio standard. Both are terminated designs, because that creates an effective transmission standard.

Nobody creates a transmission standard and says “this is a great new standard. It’s possible to run this line 10’ using any old wire”. They say instead “I’ve carefully designed this transmission standard to properly transport this specific signal hundreds of feet or more when used with wire that has these characteristics.”

The point of a well designed transmission standard is providing the ability to transmit the desired signal accurately over distance. If you aren’t transmitting at distance, you don’t really need to adhere to the specification to get adequate results! I’m not claiming that the wire makes absolutely no difference electronically, I’m claiming that at 6’-10’, it makes no practical difference.

I guess if you’re sure it will, you should write a letter to Harris for using 110ohm cable for a standard that calls for a 120ohm characteristic impedance. How did it ever work to begin with? What were those engineers thinking? We’re all DOOMED!!!!

-B

Edit: Here’s an explanation. Like I said, we aren’t talking about thing.

Characteristic Impedance | Transmission Lines | Electronics Textbook

Read about Characteristic Impedance (Transmission Lines) in our free Electronics Textbook

www.allaboutcircuits.com

 

[Teotwaki]

Anyhow, back on track with XG-100M cult adventures and a lesson about Ebay purchases of "new in the box" items.

Both of the XG's I have were used and super clean but only had the radio and the control head. I went on a quest to buy cables, connectors and microphones. I already had a bunch of speakers in a box in the garage. In a few days I had deliveries of a pre-built "new" CANBUS cable, two "new" hand mikes and "new" connectors to build power cables and Canbus cables.

I assembled one radio setup and tried my first transmission but I heard this awful tone overlaying my voice, loudly coming out of the IFR's speaker. I spent hours modifying program parameters, swapping radio bodies and control heads and got nowhere. Acting on a hunch I removed the microphone and used a jumper to short the pins for the PTT switch.

Blessed silence out of the IFR's speaker!

I grabbed the second "new" (and unused by me) microphone out of its nice box, plugged it in and heard only my voice coming out of the IFR. The awful audio tone had ceased its pitiful screams.

What a crazy thing that the first microphone I grabbed was defective! It was actually the one constant in all of the changes that I tried in order to eliminate the unwanted tone. I briefly opened the microphone up and compared it to the good microphone. Nothing was obviously amiss. The circuit board appears to have 4 surface mount transistors and a handful of other stuff. It will take a while to troubleshoot that board. Both microphones came in Harris labelled boxes and have a Harris sticker on the back of each mike. They were made in Korea, not the US. Hopefully not clones. I'm not sure a schematic exists but Ill look.

I contacted the seller and got a refund and maybe some day I'll get the energy to fix the microphone. Besides, I really needed a nice desk microphone so I found one on Ebay and have crossed my fingers....

 

[ElroyJetson]

I screenshot and pasted that directly from Harris feature documentation. What this is saying is, at this point in time, those are the features that are orderable. It does not promise that other features not on the list are incompatible with the radio, but you can't order them or if you do the order is likely to be rejected. I do know that features can be added that aren't officially supported in specific radios. And there may be compatibility issues if someone manages to get them installed anyway.

Another example is the P7300 vs. the XG-75P. The 75 supports ARC4, the 7300 does not. Yet they run the same firmware. The only substantial difference between the two is the higher resolution display on the 75. But I'd bet that if you were to find the right feature string to enable it, it'd most likely work fine on the 7300.

What's possible and what Harris will sell you can be two different things entirely.

 

[Teotwaki]

You’re missing the point here. I’m not teaching a class on characteristic impedance. It’s a difficult topic to grasp. You’re talking about cable capacitance and inductance and the nitty gritty of cable transmission. I’m talking about practical application of standards like the canbus or aes/ebu digital audio standard. Both are terminated designs, because that creates an effective transmission standard.

Nobody creates a transmission standard and says “this is a great new standard. It’s possible to run this line 10’ using any old wire”. They say instead “I’ve carefully designed this transmission standard to properly transport this specific signal hundreds of feet or more when used with wire that has these characteristics.”

The point of a well designed transmission standard is providing the ability to transmit the desired signal accurately over distance. If you aren’t transmitting at distance, you don’t really need to adhere to the specification to get adequate results! I’m not claiming that the wire makes absolutely no difference electronically, I’m claiming that at 6’-10’, it makes no practical difference.

I guess if you’re sure it will, you should write a letter to Harris for using 110ohm cable for a standard that calls for a 120ohm characteristic impedance. How did it ever work to begin with? What were those engineers thinking? We’re all DOOMED!!!!

-B

Edit: Here’s an explanation. Like I said, we aren’t talking about thing.

Characteristic Impedance | Transmission Lines | Electronics Textbook

Read about Characteristic Impedance (Transmission Lines) in our free Electronics Textbook

www.allaboutcircuits.com

Claiming "practical application" is just more baseless hand waving about a position that you can neither explain or defend no matter how long the paragraphs are. It's funny that you posted a link to a "Electronics Textbook" that offers absolutely no support of your claim "....use old analog telephone cable or analog microphone cable and nobody would be the wiser". I guess you are the one who is DOOMED. Please do let Harris know that they made a huge mistake choosing CANBUS because you know more than their engineers do about transmission lines.

 

[Teotwaki]

What's possible and what Harris will sell you can be two different things entirely.

I wish it was possible for Harris to sell me a CH100 for $50! But I won't hold my breath

Apparently on Ebay they are gold at $1949 each plus $45 shipping

 

[ElroyJetson]

I feel your pain. I'd like a CH100 myself. But $1949.00 for it? I only paid 2000 for my XL-185P, new in the box!

 

[BMDaug]

Claiming "practical application" is just more baseless hand waving about a position that you can neither explain or defend no matter how long the paragraphs are. It's funny that you posted a link to a "Electronics Textbook" that offers absolutely no support of your claim "....use old analog telephone cable or analog microphone cable and nobody would be the wiser". I guess you are the one who is DOOMED. Please do let Harris know that they made a huge mistake choosing CANBUS because you know more than their engineers do about transmission lines.

Once again, missing the point entirely. The requirements at distance are fantastically more important than when making short runs. It’s a simple concept that you aren’t grasping.

I already told you that if you want to completely geek out on wire design, knock yourself out! I’m working in the real world where at 6’-10’, you could effectively use any two conductors and still reliably transmit the signal and have it received without noticeable error.

Much of my work deals with terminated transmission standards (AES3-1985, word clock, AES10, etc.) and I’m relaying practical knowledge.

If you have the right tool for the job, definitely use it! I’m speaking from years in my industry working for groups that couldn’t afford to buy another box of cable, or had to work in less than ideal conditions.

Did that mic cable functionally carry digital audio 30’ to its destination error free? Yep, been that way for 25 years! Is it electronically correct? No… and I replace it where I can!

I’m done here. All I wanted was to provide practical knowledge to people that may not always have the perfect solution.

I’m not telling you that you are wrong, I’m telling you that it’s not always important to be so perfectly right. Not everything is perfectly ideal.

Oh, I also might put my CH-100 up for sale. I was thinking around a grand, but for guys like you, I have a smoking deal!

-B

 

[Teotwaki]

Meanwhile, out in the Atlantic Ocean...

 

[ElroyJetson]

I have to wonder how many communications troubles in multimillion dollar dispatch centers have been caused by a less than experienced system engineer and/or an installer who wants to pad his profit margin deciding that any old cable would do and a lot of money could be saved by just using Alibaba Cheap Wire rather than stick to the manufacturer's clearly defined cable specifications.

Yes, cable specifications matter and so do the applications for them. I've seen for myself what a difference replacing a single wrong spec cable with the right one can make. It can make as large a difference as going from "not working at all" to "perfection".

 

[Teotwaki]

I have to wonder how many communications troubles in multimillion dollar dispatch centers have been caused by a less than experienced system engineer and/or an installer who wants to pad his profit margin deciding that any old cable would do and a lot of money could be saved by just using Alibaba Cheap Wire rather than stick to the manufacturer's clearly defined cable specifications.

Yes, cable specifications matter and so do the applications for them. I've seen for myself what a difference replacing a single wrong spec cable with the right one can make. It can make as large a difference as going from "not working at all" to "perfection".

But, but.... "practical knowledge", lol

FIRE DISPATCH CENTER HIT WITH TEN FIRE CODE VIOLATIONS FOLLOWING DISPATCH SYSTEM FAILURE
"The most egregious violation, Riley said, was finding eight drop cords delivering power to the county’s multi-million dollar radio system."

 

[BMDaug]

I have to wonder how many communications troubles in multimillion dollar dispatch centers have been caused by a less than experienced system engineer and/or an installer who wants to pad his profit margin deciding that any old cable would do and a lot of money could be saved by just using Alibaba Cheap Wire rather than stick to the manufacturer's clearly defined cable specifications.

Yes, cable specifications matter and so do the applications for them. I've seen for myself what a difference replacing a single wrong spec cable with the right one can make. It can make as large a difference as going from "not working at all" to "perfection".

Right! When companies follow standards, they design and specify parts per those standards.

The canbus standard was developed to allow for robust transmission of industrial signaling over distance. Even Harris didn’t feel the need to source 120ohm rated cable when a readily available 110ohm cable would suffice. It was a practical design decision they made when evaluating cost, ease of procurement, lead times, and application.

Harris didn’t invent canbus, but their implementation follows the design specification as practically as possible. It’s easy to make a boutique canbus cable as a one-off, but to make them enmasse would raise the cost to the end user when it’s simply not necessary to do so! If it was necessary, everyone knows Harris would have happily charged the end user another hundred bucks, but even they didn’t think 10ohms mattered for this application. That’s why all the OEM canbus cables are Belden AES/EBU cable!

-B

LOL memes… The only proper way to prove a point!

 

[KevinC]

I have to wonder how many communications troubles in multimillion dollar dispatch centers have been caused by a less than experienced system engineer and/or an installer who wants to pad his profit margin deciding that any old cable would do and a lot of money could be saved by just using Alibaba Cheap Wire rather than stick to the manufacturer's clearly defined cable specifications.

Yes, cable specifications matter and so do the applications for them. I've seen for myself what a difference replacing a single wrong spec cable with the right one can make. It can make as large a difference as going from "not working at all" to "perfection".

Getting off-topic, but here goes...

In a previous life I got sucked into working on PCS equipment through a merger. The local management decided to use alarm wire from the NIU to the BTS because it was cheaper. When we started maintaining the equipment they had tons of "cores" locking up requiring a visit to power cycle it. After we replaced all the alarm wire with Cat5 the incidence of cores locking up was reduced to almost zero. I guess twisted pair is twisted for a reason.

Side story was the original techs were unhappy with our replacement project. Their OT due to call outs was also reduced. Our motto was "work smarter, not harder".

 

[Teotwaki]

I’m done here.

Immediately comes right back to paste-quote incoherent internet snippets that fail utterly to validate "....use old analog telephone cable or analog microphone cable and nobody would be the wiser" yet talks as if he's deeply knowledgeable of Harris' "boutique" design process.