Interpretation of FCC Part 97 Emergency Distress Operations Rules

[mmckenna]

Is a radio important? Yes. But there are many MORE important things than a radio, things that will actually help you.

There are a lot of things I pack before I pack a radio.
Wilderness First Aid certification can be earned in a 3 day class. Take a 2 week course and you can get a wilderness first responder certification.
Those things are much more important in the wilderness than a radio. It's one thing to stand there and call for help, anyone can do that. It doesn't take an amateur radio operator. Someone who is actually prepared will be able to actually provide assistance.

 

[madrabbitt]

So, here is why that doesn't apply in this situation, or the way some amateurs think it does:

Notice this part: "Section 97.403"
As I'm sure you know, Part 97 applies to amateur radio frequencies. It does not apply to Part 90, Part 80, Part 22, etc. etc. etc... Part 97 rules give you zero authority on Part 90 frequencies. Just like Part 90 frequencies don't have any rights on Part 97 frequencies. Claiming Part 97 rules apply here is like you visiting my home and making up your own rules. They don't apply here.

Where this applies is that under Part 97 rules, a Novice/Tech etc. can use General/Extra band plan to get help. It in no way applies to opening up an amateur radio and transmitting where you do not have authority or a license.

If this argument went the other way and amateurs were permitted to use their amateur radio gear outside the rules for emergencies, it would be specifically called out right here:
eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

The FCC has also made it abundantly clear that using non-type accepted equipment for use on frequencies that require type accepted equipment is not permitted.
https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-16-588A1.pdf

I understand what you are trying to say here. I get it. It just doesn't apply the way those with an amateur centric point of view think it does.

Hence my second part. People's sense of entitlement, self worth, inability to determine what a valid emergency is, etc.

The wound is controlled, and the child is stable. Pain is not a imminent danger to human life.



The child is stable, and being cared for, people have been sent to get help. Because the child is stable:



Section 97.403 does not apply. You now open yourself up to legal liability by using your modified ham radio OR your commercial radio programmed with frequencies you are not authorized to use.

BOOM. You have the answer i was leading to.

15 + people? The situation should be stabilized.
They all have cell phones? Good. Send a group of them down (and up) the trail looking for signal. Also, make sure they have a good GPS read on where you are.

As someone who DOES work in a dispatch center, I can guarantee you that some random jackass transmitting on our channels who we dont know makes things worse.

Hell, random jackasses who we DO know, transmitting on our channels make things worse.

Anything outside the normal mundane everyday stuff, things make things worse.

Last year, i was taking 90 minutes for lunch and a PT break. Happened upon a car vs deer with elderly female victim. My cell phone was on my desk at work. I picked up a radio, called into dispatch... a dispatch center i'm a dispatcher at. It took a little bit for them to process that
1. a dispatcher was outside, and calling emergency traffic in
2. this is ok, and they should actually do things.

Imagine what would happen if i was just some whacker who happened to have a radio programmed on our system.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Hence my second part. People's sense of entitlement, self worth, inability to determine what a valid emergency is, etc.

More, actually, most importantly, a legit emergency does not mean a ham operator can operate outside of ham bands... 97.403 means you can operate outside your license class. Nothing more.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

More, actually, most importantly, a legit emergency does not mean a ham operator can operate outside of ham bands... 97.403 means you can operate outside your license class. Nothing more.

Read the chapter below. Note the specific words "any means of radiocommunication at its disposal "

This could even include spark gap.


§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.

No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.

 

[mmckenna]

Yep, but that rule is Part 97, so it ONLY applies to radio services governed under Part 97. Not Part 90, not part 80 and not Part 95.

If that was the case, the FCC would not have specifically called this out in 2.405

It's important that we look at all the rules that apply here. Not just the ones that justify what we think is right.

 

[SCPD]

LMAO !

Oh Boy, did I open a can of worms!... Hey, look Guys, you all make excellent arguments- and I think that it can be agreed that the average ham with his (her's) 'hacked' VHF handheld popping up on a Public Service frequency is far more likely to be more of a problem than a help.... but on the other hand, there is the"possiblity* it may save a life. So, what do you do??
.
I like the the quote from Gabriella Jacobellis.....
'I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it"
.
The same applies to a true emergency. The merits of having the ultimate communications medium for any situation can be debated ad infinitum, but in the end it remains a debate... its not until each of us faces that 'emergency' and has to act that anything said here amounts to a hill of beans. As for that FCC rule, 97.403, well, see just how important that is if you are watching your daughter bleeding to death (excellent example btw, see above)... I dare say YOU will move Heaven and Earth, with out caring a fig about how that rule is supposed to be interpreted, in trying to save her life.
.
I applaud the person who'll carry not only a PLB, 'cel phone but also a SAT fone too... but he is a rare cowboy. We can't go prepared for all possible disasters-- and sometimes bad things happen for which we simply don't have a solution. My tale of the poor missionaries with their their inadequate radios is an example... they thought they had all the bases covered- but turns out they didn't- it was fortunate that one of them had a *Brain*, though, and used it...

What is another saying?
"Necessity is the mother of invention"...............??
.

Fortunately, life in the Lower 48 has so, so many communications alternatives that 'hacked' radios are not necessary.... maybe not the case else where in the world, but not here, not in Suburban America...
.
So- always trying to be proactive ,what exactly does Coyote suggest?
Well, If you travel, and you are aware of possible emergencies, carry a 'cel fone. If its in an area where there is no coverage, how about your 2 meter hand held... No good??, then a SAT fone (oh, those buggers are expensive!... but what-the-hey?)... maybe one of those Personal Sat Com thingy's... look to all the alternative before you go--and take things that will avoid the Public Service "hack'd" frequency alternatives.
(Personally when I get dumped out at remote sites out of the country I carry an Air Band handheld...I know that I can talk to the airline pilots- I know the freq's- and have, btw, had many conversations on 123.45Mhz. over the years)-- this is, of course, in addition to all the other communications stuff we take along.
.
It is a Lively Discussion, No?... and I am sure this, my latest missive is far from closing it....Good Night, and-- Cheers!
.
....................................CF

 

[MaximusTheGreat]

I don't normally chime in on these types of debates, but in my opinion there are "Hamsters" out there that think that a radio (regardless of part classification) makes them the "Savior" in any type of emergency. From what I have seen from the "Hamsters" I've been around in South Florida is they forget this is a HOBBY. I'll say it again, it's just a Hobby. A hobby like golf, exercising, shooting etc.

Take shooting for example. Just cause we have CCW and a pistol on our person doesn't mean I'm going to help or get involved in a police matter. I am not the law, it's not my concern. If the officer's can't handle the situation, what makes you think the average Joe will be able to assist them. In the contrary, they'll only get in the way and possibly make things worse.

In my opinion, I think these RACES or ARES groups are preaching to these people that they are needed in times of power outages, disasters, etc. When in reality these guys are not properly trained and don't know what it's like to work in true power outage scenarios. That means no AC, no lights, nothing! How many of these people can honestly say, they are 100% ready to deploy right now or Within the next 4 hours. It's not easy to be working off the grid. Especially when these guys are Geriatrics. They need food, water, medications etc. Heck Some of these guys can't even lift there own equipment without having a coronary. But yet these people are expected to work in a shelter or at some park or wherever. Set up their own towers etc. Look at field day. It takes these guys a longggggg time to set up a simple painters pole with a dipole.

So back to the comments earlier, in my opinion, if you are a true sportsman that enjoy the outdoors and know the possible dangers of nature. You will know what you need to be prepared for. By this, you should know more than first aid, have some type of communications plan when cell or repeaters or not within range etc etc. Having a MARS mod does nothing to solve your communications plan as your HT is only 5 watts, now if you have HF gear with you, you still don't need to be on frequencies that we are not assigned. Honestly with how bad the bands are lately I'm not going to hike with my HF stuff. A sat phone, PLB or SPOT are the way to go.

To sum up, I think these groups are spreading false prophecies on when hamsters will be used. These counties are very well prepared for such outages. FYI. I'm talking about the USA only not third world countries and their HAMS.

Now if I'm wrong, please share with me when HAMS have been instrumental and "KEY" in support of a severe power outage or disaster within the last 5 years. And don't tell me the Boston marathon, Sandy or the power outage in NYC. Hams weren't instrumental or key elements in support of the city, town or local agencies..

Again, it's just a hobby. Buy your radios, experiment and enjoy the hobby. Just don't think you're the savior.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Yep, but that rule is Part 97, so it ONLY applies to radio services governed under Part 97. Not Part 90, not part 80 and not Part 95.

If that was the case, the FCC would not have specifically called this out in 2.405

It's important that we look at all the rules that apply here. Not just the ones that justify what we think is right.

2.405 does not apply to amateur radio, if you read the foot notes you will see that it defers to 97.403

97.403 simply relieves an amateur station operator from the burden of the rules in part 97 which we can all agree sets forth limitations of frequency, bandwidth and power. In fact, it gives the amateur radio operator the same rights as "ordinary citizens" during an emergency.

Examples:

Citizen used officer's radio to call 911 following fatal shootin - WMC Action News 5 - Memphis, Tennessee

Citizen Used Cop's Radio to Call for Help | NBC 7 San Diego

 

[mmckenna]

I think it's an excellent discussion, and I like to see it come up now and again. It does get a bit heated from time to time, but I think, overall, it stays civil.

I used to live and work in Alaska, and all bets were off there. Marine VHF was used for everything, taxi dispatch, CB, phone, etc. It worked. It worked because people were responsible. They stayed off 16 unless they needed it.

As for another example how the FCC would specifically call out allowing amateurs to access emergency response, they do have the 5.1675MHz "Alaska Emergency Channel" that allows amateurs and public safety to talk directly to each other. Again, if the FCC intended for amateurs to talk on public safety frequencies they are more than capable of specifically stating it in the rules, just like they did in 97.401.

I'll be happy to say that in an emergency, if the only tool I had was a radio capable of transmitting on public safety frequencies, I'd do it. I'd do it in a heartbeat. But I'd make damn sure I tried cellular phones and any other tool I had at my disposal first. I also wouldn't be using a modified amateur radio. I'd be using the right tool for the job. And then I'd shamefully admit that I went into the back country unprepared and that I willingly and knowingly risked the lives of others. I would not claim that 97.403 said it was OK. I'd know that I'd have a lot of explaining to do once the emergency was resolved. I'd also know that I'd risk losing my license and my radio for doing this. But I'd do it.

I'd agree that VHF-AM air would be a better choice than 2 meters. I've been in situations where I had zero cell phone coverage, but had access to amateur and GMRS repeaters. In that instance both amateur and GMRS were useless. GMRS, first time, no one answered, even though it was the "REACT" repeater. Different situation, I got someone to answer and offer help. Much better turnout than from the amateur radio side:

Amateur, one time, nothing. No help, no response. The other time, an amateur radio operator answered me, asked all kinds of questions, but refused to "get involved". Wouldn't even open up the autopatch for me, wouldn't place a call from his home phone for me.

I'm not confident in the skill level or responsibility level of amateur radio operators. I've been a ham for 25 years and I find it disappointing. GMRS I had slightly better luck with, but I don't hold that license anymore.

Proper tools for a proper job. Anything else is just taking risks.

 

[mmckenna]

2.405 does not apply to amateur radio, if you read the foot notes you will see that it defers to 97.403

2.405 does not apply to amateur radio, and that was the point I was making. If Part 2 did specifically call out amateur radio as being allowed to operate outside the license permission, like it does for other services, it would be in there, but it isn't. That's because 97.403 applies, which is fully within the Part 97 rules and does not apply anywhere else.

Part 97 rules don't apply in the Part 90 house.
Part 90 rules don't apply in the Part 97 house.
Trying to say that Part 97 grants you permission to operate on Part 90 frequencies ignores the fact that they are covered under completely different laws. Part 90 users, have been busted for using part 97 frequencies.

When you are operating an amateur station under amateur rules, you have zero authorization to transmit outside the amateur bands.
The minute you transmit on Part 90 frequencies, you are now under Part 90 rules. You would then be using a non-type accepted transmitter. That would be a violation of 90.203

Using a radio programmable from the front panel would also be a violation of 90.203 part e: "(e) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, transmitters designed to operate above 25 MHz shall not be certificated for use under this part if the operator can program and transmit on frequencies, other than those programmed by the manufacturer, service or maintenance personnel, using the equipment's external operation controls.
Notice that this would not permit many of the CCR's for being legally marketed or used on Part 90 frequencies!

You would be transmitting on frequencies you are not licensed for. That would be a violation of 90.427. Pretty plain right here: "Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized"


Look, I understand what you are saying, but the rules don't back you up.

This is why I said earlier, "just call it what it is". There's no point in trying to use the amateur radio rules to justify transmitting on frequencies not covered under Part 97.

What you want to do is transmit illegally when you are in an emergency and not get busted. That's it. I get it and I agree. What I do not agree with is the attempts by the amateur radio crowd to justify it.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

mmckenna

Read again 97.403 but this time stop thinking so hard, you will hurt yourself.

§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.

No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of *any means of radiocommunication at its disposal * to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.

* Emphasis mine...

 

[mmckenna]

mmckenna

Read again 97.403 but this time stop thinking so hard, you will hurt yourself.

§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.

No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of *any means of radiocommunication at its disposal * to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.

* Emphasis mine...

OK, so lets try this:

Define an "amateur station" to me.

Here's what the FCC says:

§97.3 Definitions.
(a) The definitions of terms used in part 97 are:
....
(5) Amateur station. A station in an amateur radio service consisting of the apparatus necessary for carrying on radiocommunications.

Keyword there is "amateur radio service". Not Private Land Mobile Radio Services. These rules apply to amateur radio stations on amateur radio frequencies only.

Also:

§97.9 Operator license grant.
(a) The classes of amateur operator license grants are: Novice, Technician, General, Advanced, and Amateur Extra. The person named in the operator license grant is authorized to be the control operator of an amateur station with the privileges authorized to the operator class specified on the license grant.

The last sentence covers it again. Amateur station. Privileges authorized. Nothing about operating under different rule parts.

And this one:
§97.301 Authorized frequency bands. I'll let you look it up. But it ONLY covers amateur radio frequencies. It does not authorize transmitting outside the amateur radio bands. This goes back to the Part 97 rules, including 97.403, only apply to Part 97 frequencies. They do not authorize transmitting outside the amateur bands.

Again, part 97 rules ONLY apply to part 97 frequencies. Part 97 rules do not grant you authorization in any other services.


Again, call it what it is. Some amateurs want to be able to operate on frequencies they are not licensed for without getting in trouble.

 

[mmckenna]

mmckenna

Read again 97.403 but this time stop thinking so hard, you will hurt yourself.

§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.

No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of *any means of radiocommunication at its disposal * to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.

* Emphasis mine...

Also, I think you are looking at this from the angle you want to. If you read this document, you'll get an idea of what the FCC intended: https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/techtopics/techtopics13.html

It's not to allow amateur radio operators to ignore the rules when they've determined, on their own, that there is an emergency. The above document is saying that amateur radio operators can use their equipment on amateur radio frequencies to assist public safety.

I'm not sure where people are getting this "It's OK for me to transmit on public safety frequencies because I passed a 35 question multiple choice test" from.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

OK, so lets try this:

Define an "amateur station" to me.

Here's what the FCC says:

§97.3 Definitions.
(a) The definitions of terms used in part 97 are:
....
(5) Amateur station. A station in an amateur radio service consisting of the apparatus necessary for carrying on radiocommunications.

(snip)

Again, call it what it is. Some amateurs want to be able to operate on frequencies they are not licensed for without getting in trouble.

I would expect it is an archaic term since FCC used to license "amateur radio stations" the licensed operator was expected to operate a fixed station that was subject to FCC inspection at a fixed location. Obviously when mobile and portable operations became more prevalent, the rules were loosened up and eventually the amateur radio (operator) license was issued. There are old examples of such licenses on Google images. You may recall that you were required to maintain a station log, use special call-sign appendages when you were away from your district or mobile.

Your license and mine are like this example:

http://www.demajo.net/museum/page7_graphics/ham_license.jpg

Here is an old timer:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/W8PAL.jpg/440px-W8PAL.jpg

You sure are persistent with your argument about this. I will say nothing more than I believe my interpretation to be correct.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Mmckenna

Also refer to 97.405 , and if that is not enough, read the ARRL General Class Q&A study guide, 5th edition, supplement G2 page 10, question G2B11. This describes my argument exactly, any frequency, any power, as long as it jis a real emergency.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Does Anybody Even Bother With CAP/MARS Modifications Any Longer?

LMAO !

Oh Boy, did I open a can of worms!...

Nothing that has not been debated before. The ham whackers always have the same argument, 97.403...

Sadly this is not being prepared. If a modded ham radio, or a LMR radio pre loaded with public safety frequencies is their idea about being prepared, god help them... They are a hazard to themselves and others.

Hey, look Guys, you all make excellent arguments- and I think that it can be agreed that the average ham with his (her's) 'hacked' VHF handheld popping up on a Public Service frequency is far more likely to be more of a problem than a help....

The debate is always the same. There are those folks that think a modded radio, while falsely believing 97.403 covers them, and those of us that actually know what being prepared entails.

but on the other hand, there is the"possiblity* it may save a life. So, what do you do??

SPOT and a sat-phone. Along with the means to determine where I am. Far more useful than a modified ham radio or a LMR radio pre loaded with public safety frequencies I'm not authorized to use.

The same applies to a true emergency. The merits of having the ultimate communications medium for any situation can be debated ad infinitum, but in the end it remains a debate... its not until each of us faces that 'emergency' and has to act that anything said here amounts to a hill of beans. As for that FCC rule, 97.403, well, see just how important that is if you are watching your daughter bleeding to death (excellent example btw, see above)... I dare say YOU will move Heaven and Earth, with out caring a fig about how that rule is supposed to be interpreted, in trying to save her life.

I whole heartedly agree. However, I work in an industry that actually takes emergency response pretty seriously. It takes preparedness seriously. Couple that with actually getting help to an emergency where there was no cell service... Well you get the point. A modified ham radio, or a LMR radio pre loaded with frequencies I'm not authorized, or licensed for is NOT part of my being prepared.

I applaud the person who'll carry not only a PLB, 'cel phone but also a SAT fone too... but he is a rare cowboy.

Actually less uncommon than you may think.

We can't go prepared for all possible disasters-- and sometimes bad things happen for which we simply don't have a solution.

Those of us that take our safety seriously do prepare for most possibilities. Those that don't end up dead.

My tale of the poor missionaries with their their inadequate radios is an example... they thought they had all the bases covered- but turns out they didn't- it was fortunate that one of them had a *Brain*, though, and used it...

I would liken that to not practicing, and not doing a proper ERP.

Fortunately, life in the Lower 48 has so, so many communications alternatives that 'hacked' radios are not necessary.... maybe not the case else where in the world, but not here, not in Suburban America...

Too bad the whackers do not understand this

So- always trying to be proactive ,what exactly does Coyote suggest?
Well, If you travel, and you are aware of possible emergencies, carry a 'cel fone. If its in an area where there is no coverage, how about your 2 meter hand held... No good??, then a SAT fone (oh, those buggers are expensive!... but what-the-hey?)... maybe one of those Personal Sat Com thingy's... look to all the alternative before you go--and take things that will avoid the Public Service "hack'd" frequency alternatives.

Sat-phones can be rented. As can PLB.

(Personally when I get dumped out at remote sites out of the country I carry an Air Band handheld...I know that I can talk to the airline pilots- I know the freq's- and have, btw, had many conversations on 123.45Mhz. over the years)-- this is, of course, in addition to all the other communications stuff we take along.

An air band portable is actually a much better alternative than a hacked ham radio. There is so many aircraft in the air at any one time you stand a better chance with it than a ham radio in the back country.

 

[kayn1n32008]

You can buy a SPOT beacon for less than $150US, and service is about $100US/yr. so not overly expensive at all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[mmckenna]

Mmckenna

Also refer to 97.405 , and if that is not enough, read the ARRL General Class Q&A study guide, 5th edition, supplement G2 page 10, question G2B11. This describes my argument exactly, any frequency, any power, as long as it jis a real emergency.

ARRL doesn't make the rules, so quoting them isn't helping your case.

 

[mmckenna]

You sure are persistent with your argument about this. I will say nothing more than I believe my interpretation to be correct.

Yes I am. But no offense intended against you, we just don't agree on this one subject.

The main issue I see is amateurs not being actually prepared, and using 97.403 as a justification for it.
I'll also add that my responsibilities in a small PSAP has taught me that amateurs are not welcome on public safety frequencies. Even doing testing as part of my job with a type accepted radio on licensed channels isn't welcome. Knowing when to stay out of the way and not mess with the professionals should be a key skill that's taught to new amateur radio operators.

What's really discouraging is doing a google search on "97.403" and seeing the number of amateurs that not only assume that their interpretation is correct, but also think that this rule mandates amateur radio operators to transmit on public safety frequencies. This attitude sort of shuts down any actual preparedness. When amateurs should be "advancing the radio art" and working within the rules, the focus, instead, is how to circumvent the rules.

There are established, proven and perfectly legal ways to get help when out of cell phone range. 97.403 isn't it. It shouldn't rely on a hotly contested and vague interpretation of the rules. The FCC is perfectly capable of stating that amateurs are permitted to transmit outside the amateur band, just like they clearly do with the rules for Part 2 and Part 90, however they haven't. I think that should be a pretty clear statement.

 

[KD8DVR]

mmckenna

Read again 97.403 but this time stop thinking so hard, you will hurt yourself.

§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.

No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of *any means of radiocommunication at its disposal * to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.

* Emphasis mine...

Only under frequencies covered by part 97. This means a technician could use extra frequencies if their life is in imminent danger. Part 97 has no bearing outside amateur radio

AntiSquid disclaimer: All information provided is personal opinion only and may or may not resemble actual fact.