Interpretation of FCC Part 97 Emergency Distress Operations Rules

[kayn1n32008]

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Not even as a last resort to save a life? If not, I have nothing else to say to you.

If you do proper risk analysis before you do what ever you do, it will identify the proper tools needed to summon help where ever you go. By being properly prepared, a modified ham radio will NEVER be the 'last resort' method of communication.

A modified radio 'as a last resort' just shows that you have not done a proper risk analysis, properly planned, do not posess the right tool for the job and are NOT prepared to face a situation where you need to summon help where there is not cellular/landline services.

If you can not see that a modified ham radio is a poor 'last resort' you obviously have not put the 'first or second resort' communication tools for back county travel in your tool box.

 

[N8OHU]

I agree. But that's not the particular point I was addressing. Feel free to re-read the complete posts that I wrote.

Listening isn't a problem, or scanners and scanner apps for smartphones would be illegal; I have zero problem with anyone using any kind of radio they have access to to listen.

Not even as a last resort to save a life? If not, I have nothing else to say to you.

If I can't get help with my radio on the ham bands, what makes you think I would be able to do so on a non-ham frequency?



Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[KC4RAF]

C-F, Lauri was right on the spot!

This has been, (has been???) a good entertainment thread.
What ever means available for REAL emergency will work.

 

[SCPD]

The sun is setting, Xenna has been put to bed...its time to close up this little shop and head into town- and especially --to Dinner!
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I asked Barbi (remember, her nickname- she a very bright engineer) what she thought of all these Posts... she is our Search Chair Person* for talent - we have an engineer position opening....
Joking, I asked; "if you had to pick one of the commentators today, which would it be?
"There are some really good possibilities, but....." she said.
"But?" I responded
"But," she said..... "I think if you chose one, or two of those guys this would say it all, for our team, at least".
And she held up the latest novel she is reading** ---Charles Nordhoff's: "Mutiny on the Bounty"

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Good Night Guys!... looking forward to more of those Posts tomorrow!

..................................CF

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* a title made up to sound nice and official

**on these field trips everyone is highly encourage to bring along all sorts of reading material and sundry other (non alcoholic) diversions....

 

[kayn1n32008]

I'm out of this thread. It is clear that the foaming at the mouth 'rescue randi' types will continue to believe a modified ham toy is a good alternative means of communications. Nothing said here will change that.

Peace

 

[DaveNF2G]

The language in the relevant provision of Part 90 is "no person." That means everybody.

Note that 97.403 is limited to "an amateur station."

 

[SCPD]

I overlooked this the other day
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Quote:
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"There is a HUGE difference between using the radio as an oscillator, where the energy is not being radiated through an antenna, vs programming part 90 frequencies to be able to talk to public safety agencies you are not authorized to transmit on. Apples to oranges. I also said that modifying the radio is not illegal. When you key the radio piped into a transverter, you are not radiating the RF to the air....." (kayn1n32008)
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Again, I will respectfully disagree.
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In my hypothetical example that VHF transceiver is hardly an "oscillator," but lets not get side tracked here. What that "whacked oscillator" is is a complete radio communications device- it is only being used as a driver for a transverter. Nothing stops someone from "un-piping" it from said transverter and "piping" it to an antenna. Why, pray tell, is the possession of such a connected radio legal when unconnected from its transverter it is not?? Is it to be presumed that now it is not only the actual use of the radio but also its possible intended uses that make it illegal? - for by this convoluted logic (and syntax) it was said earlier;
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"As a amateur radio operator(whom does not hold, or is not an agent for a Part 90 licensee) is not authorized to program Part 90 frequencies "which the licensee(Part 97) using the transmitter is not authorized(Part 90)"
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and--
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"It IS unlawful to program a radio for frequencies you are not authorized to use"
( kayn1n32008 : both cite)
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Hmmmm...pondering this last quote...just how does "programming" a radio not be the same as "modifying" one?? oh well, I digress.... Apples to Oranges..........
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Me thinks I detect something Orwellian here... is all this saying that merely *thinking* of using a 'whacked' radio is now Thought Crime.....?
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--------- Heavy stuff here, Cowboys!-- heavy stuff indeed!
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...........................................CF

 

[kayn1n32008]

Coyote, using a radio as an ocscilator for a transverter, the RF radiated out of the antenna is with in an anateur radio band. The radio is not radiating RF oitside of the ham band. That said I, personally, have yet to see a ham transverter that uses an IF outside the ham band.

Thats a big difference than using the same modified radio to contact Part 90 users on Part 90 frequencies.

Have fun I am done here

 

[MaximusTheGreat]

So 167 posts of back and forth between yeah or nah. How about we "dumb it down" for the rest of these Hamsters.....

With a simple YES or a NO...

Can a licensed HAMSTER in the USA operate A HAM radio on Police/Fire frequency in an emergency were cell phones are not available?

My simple Answer is..

!!! NO!!!

 

[SCPD]

Kayn1n, respectfully, I don't think you--
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1) answer'd my question, and
2) you won't, or can't-- think thru a thorough answer
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...and as for:
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" I, personally, have yet to see a ham transverter that uses an IF outside the ham band,"
..... ...........Sweetie, just because you haven't *seen* one doesn't make this relevant.
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Unless you can elucidate a few more details, as posited by others- and myself, I do think you are right,
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.....................................................You "are done here"..................................
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But again , hey!, nothing personal here Fella'....Thanks!, and I really mean that--for such a lively, passionate and highly entertaining discourse. Maybe our paths will cross someday.....
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au revoir et bonne chance!
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............................................. CF

 

[cmdrwill]

(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with § 90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized.


And the FCC says "causing to be programmed" IS also considered a violation of 90.427b and has cited under that rule. NOV and fines were awarded to the user.

Notice the word "transmitter",............

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

I wasn't going to get involved with this, and I don't have the ambition to read every word of every post, and rebut it, but I will say this....

Those of you on here who have worked in the EMS profession will know exactly what I'm talking about. ANYONE, breaking into a private radio network, will be viewed FIRST AND FOREMOST as an intruder, NOT as someone who needs to be engaged in dialog, and their "emergency" discussed.

Breaking into a private radio network for "help", is much like breaking into someone's house to hide from the robbers that are chasing you. They might eventually help you and hide you and call the cops for you, but the first thing that's going to happen is they are going to put a gun in your face. Good luck.

All breaking into someone else's private radio network is going to do, is cause confusion. Especially a POLICE network, where they are NOT there primarily to help you, but to look for crime. And, they are very cliquish and security oriented. Yea, good luck. There is a protocol to follow in order to get assistance from EMS.

Also, MANY systems are set-up so that each individual unit transmits it's unit ID with every transmission. An unidentified radio on the system will raise red flags.

Some people have started forest fires in order to get help. Some folks have broken into unoccupied homes for shelter. If you need to save a life, do whatever is necessary. But ferfrigsake, if a whole group of people sat around talking about starting forest fires, or B&E, or sleeping in dead horse carcasses to "save lives", they would very rightly be considered WHACKERS.

No different just because they have a "Ham Radio License".



FWIW, YMMV, JMPOV, ETC..ETC...



Delta

 

[SCPD]

I was trying to come up with some sort of epilogue for my participation in this discussion, for I feel that I too, have come to the end of the road here. Its has all starting to revolve back to the starting point, with as many people polarized now as when it began..... but, so what? On the other hand, my little stay in the wilds of Nevada has come to an end... Xenna* has past all her trials and "WE ARE OUT OF HERE!" Today she was but an unclassified science project... tomorrow she belongs to the "Brand-X" guys, and will never, ever be spoken of again.
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It was my chief engineer, Barbi, who has been captivated by this Forum topic (God only knows why ) that made this observation... and gave me my closing comments, and I her, the credit-
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"Lauri," Barbi said, "She (indicating Xenna, our multi-megawatt blow torch out on the mountainside) "doesn't have any license.,,and all those people on that Forum have been passing bricks over some technicalities over their little, ridiculous hand held 2-way radios."
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----------------A long pause
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"She has no Type Acceptance (Xenna)
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(laffing) "No type Acceptances"
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"No Part-Anythings..."
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"Nope"
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"I guess its just a matter of perspective.........but then again, who * could* ever complain about Her ?" said Barbi
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"They can just tell it to the guys at the gates! " she added.
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"They had better bring some solid ID's" I laffed.
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_______________________________________________________________
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Yes, its a matter of Perspective.
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The Perspective of common sense- to know there are laws, and then there are 'laws.'
"Just don't do stupid stuff!" summed up Barbi, as she walked off to attend to more pressing items.
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________________________________________________________________
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In closing, I wanted to say to all those Noman Normals out there, in your Mini Van worlds as you commute daily thru the maddening traffic jams to and from 'Cube Ville"-- I am on your side.
In this world of over regulation, over taxation, screaming kids and your dictator spouses/HOA's/inlaws, ________________ (fill in the blank)- I applaud the still Frontier Spirit that lurks below your surface. If having that mod'd radio gives you a tiny bit of control over all those other forces, 'Good one on ya' , Mate!" Just use it wisely (as I have every confidence the vast, vast! majority of you will!)
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And now, I am off to a late-night Post Project party in Las Vegas!...Ah, those thankful contractors- they know how to make us feel appreciated!
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So Guy s, when next you see me on these Forums- I will spin an entirely new tale, oh,that I can assure you!!
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.........................................................CF
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*"Xenna" is not any DoD name for our baby... we give our projects pet nicknames (like we do each other ) ....... Xenna behaved superbly and hence she received a good one.... not like some that are still known as that "Mickey Mouse Piece of S*** !

 

[KD8DVR]

I think the problem is that it doesn't plainly say "In an emergency, the normal limitations on your Amateur Radio Service operating privileges do not apply", even though that's what the legalese boils down to.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

Perhaps it is time to petition the FCC to word all the regulations in a manner that eliminates all doubt to their meaning .

AntiSquid Disclaimer: All comments are personal opinion only and may not indicate a claim of actual fact.

 

[AK9R]

Perhaps it is time to petition the FCC to word all the regulations in a manner that eliminates all doubt to their meaning .

Careful what you ask for. I don't think we want Title 47 to look like the IRS tax code, do we? It's a bit unrealistic to expect government regulations to take every possible application and interpretation into account.

 

[N8OHU]

Careful what you ask for. I don't think we want Title 47 to look like the IRS tax code, do we? It's a bit unrealistic to expect government regulations to take every possible application and interpretation into account.

In this particular case, it would clarify the intent of the regulations without interfering with legitimate reasons to modify the radios (MARS and use as an IF module), or the rare case where modding the radio is the only way to fix a problem with it.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[kayn1n32008]

http://globalnews.ca/news/3066842/h...er-forces-stay-in-survival-tent/?sf42390147=1

For any of those that doubt the effectiveness of a PLB read the news story.

FYI, except for Alberta EMS, all other Public Safety(RCMP, Parks Canada, GSAR) users involved in this rescue use plain old analogue VHF for communications.

 

[SCPD]

I'm back to tie a final ribbon on my participation in this discussion....
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As I mentioned months ago, I was going to be in Alaska-- and while there I planned to operate- --legally-- on a Part 90 (and others,) frequency using a modified ham radio and my amateur radio callsign.
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I was going to take along my own transceiver, but balk'd when I realized how heavy and awkward that would be.... all just to prove this ridiculous point to myself. However, using one of our agency radios*, I put my +Ham+ callsign out on 5167.5khz last week, checking into a emergency preparedness net exercise. There, I exchanged signal reports, some idle chat, etc. with stations in Parts 90, 80, 87 and 97... and what a variety of callsigns that was , too!
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Yes, I know,--this doesn't mean a fig's worth of anything, but , Hey!- it was fun and and it was easy. Cheers!

.

..................................................CF

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* I know, this was not exactly "hacking" a ham radio- it wasn't a Part Anything radio-- but it was close enuff for me... sorry, Purists (laughing)--

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Amazing, I take it nobody went to jail or died a horrible death by paper cuts!

I'm back to tie a final ribbon on my participation in this discussion....
.
As I mentioned months ago, I was going to be in Alaska-- and while there I planned to operate- --legally-- on a Part 90 (and others,) frequency using a modified ham radio and my amateur radio callsign.
.
I was going to take along my own transceiver, but balk'd when I realized how heavy and awkward that would be.... all just to prove this ridiculous point to myself. However, using one of our agency radios*, I put my +Ham+ callsign out on 5167.5khz last week, checking into a emergency preparedness net exercise. There, I exchanged signal reports, some idle chat, etc. with stations in Parts 90, 80, 87 and 97... and what a variety of callsigns that was , too!
.
Yes, I know,--this doesn't mean a fig's worth of anything, but , Hey!- it was fun and and it was easy. Cheers!

.

..................................................CF

___________________________________________________
.
* I know, this was not exactly "hacking" a ham radio- it wasn't a Part Anything radio-- but it was close enuff for me... sorry, Purists (laughing)--

 

[KD8DVR]

I'm back to tie a final ribbon on my participation in this discussion....
.
As I mentioned months ago, I was going to be in Alaska-- and while there I planned to operate- --legally-- on a Part 90 (and others,) frequency using a modified ham radio and my amateur radio callsign.
.
I was going to take along my own transceiver, but balk'd when I realized how heavy and awkward that would be.... all just to prove this ridiculous point to myself. However, using one of our agency radios*, I put my +Ham+ callsign out on 5167.5khz last week, checking into a emergency preparedness net exercise. There, I exchanged signal reports, some idle chat, etc. with stations in Parts 90, 80, 87 and 97... and what a variety of callsigns that was , too!
.
Yes, I know,--this doesn't mean a fig's worth of anything, but , Hey!- it was fun and and it was easy. Cheers!

.

..................................................CF

___________________________________________________
.
* I know, this was not exactly "hacking" a ham radio- it wasn't a Part Anything radio-- but it was close enuff for me... sorry, Purists (laughing)--

You cannot use an amateur radio call sign on a part 90 frequency. It is not value there. You need a part 90 license. Your amateur privileges give you no operating authority outside of part 97. None. Please consult the regulations of any radio service you operate on or plan on operating on. An amateur license makes no one entitled to special exceptions to other radio services.

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