• Effective immediately we will be deleting, without notice, any negative threads or posts that deal with the use of encryption and streaming of scanner audio.

    We've noticed a huge increase in rants and negative posts that revolve around agencies going to encryption due to the broadcasting of scanner audio on the internet. It's now worn out and continues to be the same recycled rants. These rants hijack the threads and derail the conversation. They no longer have a place anywhere on this forum other than in the designated threads in the Rants forum in the Tavern.

    If you violate these guidelines your post will be deleted without notice and an infraction will be issued. We are not against discussion of this issue. You just need to do it in the right place. For example:
    https://forums.radioreference.com/rants/224104-official-thread-live-audio-feeds-scanners-wait-encryption.html

Last of the scanners: Are police security measures and new technologies killing an American obsession?

belvdr

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I should try what? I use digital simplex every single day. Just did on two Motortrbo radios literally an hour ago. The laws of physics and properties of radio waves don't change from California to Indiana. I assure you digital simplex works fine back there too. ;)
I'm a mile from Indiana. Digital simplex works just fine, just as analog does.
 

kayn1n32008

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Don't even care about duty cycle. Any repeater that is meant to stay up (i.e. a public safety system) is going to have the battery power/diesel generator power to stay up. It's just cost prohibitive in ham repeaters. So if you're referring to ham repeaters that couldn't last 8 days without power, that's not at all surprising.
Do you have any idea what it takes to keep a 100w with even a 50% duty cycle on the air for 8 days after grid failure? With out internal combustion power generation you don’t. Period.

The battery stack is just cost prohibitive.



You can disagree all you like. There is absolutely no difference between digital simplex and analog simplex. None. Saying that digital won't work yet analog will is absolutely silly. I can get on any of my digital radios and talk digital simplex. I can get on any of my HF radios and talk digital simplex. No need for links, repeaters, internet, etc. You should try it!
With modern vocoding and FEC you will actually have better coverage than analogue.


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radio3353

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@alcahuete It's pointless to keep trying to get through. It is like arguing with a post. The person is apparently convinced that something magically happens to digital signal that doesn't happen to analog signal. :alien::alien::alien:
Kind of like the people who believe one needs to buy a 'digital' antenna for their new flat screen TV if they want to receive over-the -air signals. Still trying to convince my brother-in-law on this. He hasn't taken me up on my offer to hook up a clothes hanger to his TV and see what he gets.
 

alcahuete

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Do you have any idea what it takes to keep a 100w with even a 50% duty cycle on the air for 8 days after grid failure? With out internal combustion power generation you don’t. Period.

The battery stack is just cost prohibitive.
I'm well aware. Any repeater that is worthwhile (i.e. public safety) is going to have the generation power to stay on the air for 8 days. That's why I responded that the ones going offline were very likely ham repeaters that didn't have that infrastructure.
 

belvdr

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Kind of like the people who believe one needs to buy a 'digital' antenna for their new flat screen TV if they want to receive over-the -air signals. Still trying to convince my brother-in-law on this. He hasn't taken me up on my offer to hook up a clothes hanger to his TV and see what he gets.
I used to use a paper clip on an office TV.
 

FluxMux

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It amazes me the sheep mindsets that will bend over for a government believing all that could possibly happen is a scan for polyps for their future good health.
 

poltergeisty

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Not really. I have solar panels and generators, bug out bags and 6 handhelds with 2 extra batteries each 1 portable transceiver ( HF.VHF.UHF ) and 2 mobile transceivers ( 1 VHF 75 Watt and 1 HF/UHF/VHF 100 Watt ). Food supplies to feed 2 people for 6 months and a portable water filtration system. A large GP Military Tent, Medical Supplies right down to Sutures ) Several GPS systems and a ATV. And everything required to survive for an extended period of time SO I do not know what you consider being prepared for a SHTF situation but I assure you I feel that I am not "equal" to most those who think they are prepared for a SHTF situation. Plus 20 years in the USMC did not hurt either.

Not really? So you can easily weather a CME or maybe even a EMP? Never mid the fact the electric grid and all things electronic go out, but all 60 U.S. nuke plats go into melt down.

Problem is, Congress isn't doing anything to harden our infrastructure for a CME or EMP. And the solar cycle is ya coming.
 

hardsuit

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Radio Monitoring is Alive an Well in my Area. I live in the SF Bay Area , with Multiple Agency on a Regional System , using a mix of P25 Phase I and some Analog VHF/Uhf as a back up, some of my agency still use 700/800 MHz Public Safety.
most of the NXDN and DMR traffic are with Private Radio or Tempoary networks. the CHP here still broadcasts in 43 Mhz Analog.
my Regional commuter train BART uses EDACS, Analog Trunking as does my Public Transit buses.
 

12dbsinad

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Do you have any idea what it takes to keep a 100w with even a 50% duty cycle on the air for 8 days after grid failure? With out internal combustion power generation you don’t. Period.

The battery stack is just cost prohibitive.
Not to get off topic, but a big portion of the problem here with batteries and modern day equipment is standby current draw. Most any modern day station draws between 1-2 amps (and sometimes more) at idle to just run. Take a Mastr II station or the like, from up until the early 90's, draw around 250ma standby. This is most of the problem with battery power for a repeater. It's the standby current.

Same holds true with modern day portable radios, including the fancy APX line. Poor battery life compared to older models because of excessive current draw just being on.
 

kayn1n32008

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Not to get off topic, but a big portion of the problem here with batteries and modern day equipment is standby current draw. Most any modern day station draws between 1-2 amps (and sometimes more) at idle to just run. Take a Mastr II station or the like, from up until the early 90's, draw around 250ma standby. This is most of the problem with battery power for a repeater. It's the standby current.

Same holds true with modern day portable radios, including the fancy APX line. Poor battery life compared to older models because of excessive current draw just being on.
Ah yes, the days of crystal receivers and transmitters. While 250mA is almost un-achievable these days 360-500mA standby is still doable for a synthesized analogue/P25 conventional repeater. Not many companies out there can do it, but one I know of can.

Harris, Kenwood, Vertex, Icom and Motorola are not what you want in an off grid/solar site.

Anyhow. Getting off topic.


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kc7mpm

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Some day somebody will find a way to listen anyway, there are some very smart electronics people out there.
I know why my local area has gone to the NXDN96 system, seems as though a big mouth in the central dispatch has used a lot of scare
tactic talk to sway the county commissioners to put the county in more debt. Somebody will develop a way to defeat it. If they haven't done so already
And are keeping quiet about it.
 

mule1075

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Some day somebody will find a way to listen anyway, there are some very smart electronics people out there.
I know why my local area has gone to the NXDN96 system and somebody will develop a way to defeat it. If they haven't done so already
And are keeping quiet about it.
Encryption will never be beaten so keep dreaming . And you already can listen to NXDN as long as it not encrypted.
 

belvdr

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Encryption will never be beaten so keep dreaming . And you already can listen to NXDN as long as it not encrypted.
Well it may be beaten but it will be long after anyone uses it, similar to DES. It will likely be due to weakness, rather than a brute force technique.
 

kayn1n32008

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Well it may be beaten but it will be long after anyone uses it, similar to DES. It will likely be due to weakness, rather than a brute force technique.
DES was defeated because of advances in processing power.

AES will likely be defeated one day, but there will be something to replace it before that happens.

AES was publicly developed, and was peer reviewed prior to being certified by NIST and being named AES. The AES cipher can use 128, 192 or 256bit key spaces.

It was originally called Rijndael block cipher, named for the two Belgian cryptographers that developed it.

AES is quite robust, and likely won’t be defeated in the near term.


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kayn1n32008

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Well it may be beaten but it will be long after anyone uses it, similar to DES. It will likely be due to weakness, rather than a brute force technique.
DES was defeated because of advances in processing power.

AES will likely be defeated one day, but there will be something to replace it before that happens.

AES was publicly developed, and was peer reviewed prior to being certified by NIST and being named AES. The AES cipher can use 128, 192 or 256bit key spaces.

It was originally called Rijndael block cipher, named for the two Belgian cryptographers that developed it.

AES is quite robust, and likely won’t be defeated in the near term.

Edit: DES was published in 1977. It lasted a very long time, before it was replaced.

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belvdr

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DES was defeated because of advances in processing power.

AES will likely be defeated one day, but there will be something to replace it before that happens.

AES was publicly developed, and was peer reviewed prior to being certified by NIST and being named AES. The AES cipher can use 128, 192 or 256bit key spaces.

It was originally called Rijndael block cipher, named for the two Belgian cryptographers that developed it.

AES is quite robust, and likely won’t be defeated in the near term.

Edit: DES was published in 1977. It lasted a very long time, before it was replaced.

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Right and nobody was using, or should have been using, DES or 3DES when it was cracked. It was considered weak long before it was cracked.

My point is that nobody should claim something will never be cracked.
 

kayn1n32008

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Right and nobody was using, or should have been using, DES or 3DES when it was cracked. It was considered weak long before it was cracked.

My point is that nobody should claim something will never be cracked.
Agreed. Never say never.

However with current technology, AES256 with a random hexadecimal key variable, is not able to be defeated at this time.


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wb6sub

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It is already an additional crime in California to use a scanner in commission of a crime. Now we have people like Orange County Sherif, and many agencies in Los Angeles County that are encrypted. Makes me think what are they trying to hide? Love believes the best so I side with the agencies but that does cross my mind.
 

ohiodesperado

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As we see the continued progression to P25 and P25 phase 2 systems, the number of encrypted talkgroups on these systems will only continue to increase. Coupled with the current push by Motorola for all their new DMR systems to have at least basic encryption to limit the use of non-Motorola DMR subscribers on the systems it will only add to the decrease of accessable channels by scanner hobbyists. The reasons are many as to why go to encryption. Yes, as some of the other posts have indicated, some officials are doing it simply to have the knowledge that their conversations are NOT accessible to the general public, but the base reasons very for this. Fire officials and to a lesser degree police officials are doing this to maintain secure scenes. There are still a contingent of folks that will show up to fire scenes or police scenes for various reasons. For some it's basic curiosity, for others it's to create YouTube footage. But anyone that shows up to a fire or police scene can put themselves in harms way if they are not aware of the situation at hand. Baracade scenes with suspects hold up in a house or other structure are not going to use proper firearms etiquette when having a shootout with police. So being there is dangerous. And structure fire situations can also be a huge unknown. Of course most people are not storing explosives in their homes, but there are some that do. There are also meth labs with dangerous chemicals, muzzle loader shooters that have completely legal stores of black powder not to mention gas welding equipment and even simple everyday things like gas grills with compressed propane tanks that can create huge explosions. So fire fighters would need to take time away from fighting the fire to do crowd control in these situations. So the belief by some is if they can't be heard, then no one will hear them and come to take a look.

I have seen were some have said it's paid for by tax dollars so we have the right. Well nuclear weapons design, encrypted communications used in war time by the military, fighter jet plans, war ship plans, the social security system database, and even you medical records and treatments if you are on Medicare or other government insurance are paid for by the government, and ultimately your tax dollars. But it's still classified and you can't claim your taxes paid for it so hand it over. Or do I have the right to know about your last prostrate exam? What sort of hoochie ailment your wife may have? The doctors notes on you ED problems? And remember that there are STILL police departments out there reading names, social security numbers and dates of birth over VHF clear communication channels. Do YOU want to get pulled over in that jurisdiction and have your personal data broadcast for everyone with a scanner to hear it for 20 miles in all directions.

And there is a cure to all of this. You can find area's that are still running open air communications and move there. YOu don't have to live in an area where the evil police chief has made the decision to encrypt the communications of their department which they are fully within their right to do most places.

It was not so long ago that C4FM (aka P25 digital) came on the scene. And I remember everyone screaming about the same thing when their scanners went quiet and they could no longer monitor the local police or fire department. It was called encryption then even though it wasn't. The only difference here is that it's now actual encryption and a new scanner will not get you listening to those conversations.
 
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