I'm willing to bet that's PEBCAK. Either that or his radio failed to get an OTAU channel plan update, which I hear is a big functionality perk of this system (so every radio doesn't have to get serviced every time they add a new TG)
troymail
Silent Key
Testing yesterday on 8561 -- light rail stations and University Hospital/Shock Trauma. Are MTA Police coming onto this system or was the mobile unit just riding light rail to support his testing? Time will tell I suppose...
More of it this evening though I couldn't catch a location. Sounds like that's widespread radio testing going on all over the place- heard callsign PMO (perhaps Project Management Office?) doing the portable testing at Shock Trauma with a 'Base' station using 2125701 during that time you mentioned yesterday. Notably, both radios were in the 212#### series, not the 211 used by MdTAP. However, I did see 2125701 come up on PORT's TG with no voice sometime yesterday- this spread may indicate that Base and possibly PMO's radio are FiRST project staff conducting initial testing.
Interesting, though, that the TG they were using was 8561 when the new MSP-M simulcast is on 8564. If that's where MSP-M is going to stay (which is anybody's guess) maybe that's another State TG.
Though you're right, time will be the telling point. Right now I'm just babbling guesses... probably because I have too much time on my hands.
EDIT: Also updated RID list in the Wiki in case anybody wants to pull from that or add to it. (again way too much spare time)
Interesting, though, that the TG they were using was 8561 when the new MSP-M simulcast is on 8564. If that's where MSP-M is going to stay (which is anybody's guess) maybe that's another State TG.
Though you're right, time will be the telling point. Right now I'm just babbling guesses... probably because I have too much time on my hands.
EDIT: Also updated RID list in the Wiki in case anybody wants to pull from that or add to it. (again way too much spare time)
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troymail
Silent Key
When (day/time) was this testing you heard with PMO? I didn't catch any of it (at least, not since midday on the 18th). However, that was the name the tester was using on the 18th between 1000-1300.
Are you receiving activity on other than site 101(Balt) or 102(AA)?
Last evening. I did hear 8564 with the MSP-M patch very occasionally on 8564 but it was very scattered. In fact, most of it appeared on site 101 but one time it was active on site 102 briefly and then back on 101.
I have also seen what looks like someone keying up but not saying anything. I'm still not sure if this is something not decoding correctly, some type of testing, or new users just playing with their radios.
I still have one radio on site 101 and the other on site 102. Much (but not all) of the Tunnel and Port MdTA activity appears on both site 101 and 102 (with an ever so slight delay noticeable between the two sites). I have not been able to receive any other sites at my location -- and very specific placement of the radios (not even near each other) in my house is required to receive those two sites. I may do some further testing today with receiving other sites from my location to see if anything has changed.
However, once I have solid lock on the CC, the voice is excellent and very clear.
I can say this -- activity is much less frequent now that real users (Port and McHenry) are live on the system and the MSP-M patch isn't active much now. However, I'm sure that will change again once more users are moved onto the system - base on this week, perhaps we'll see two more (Mon and Thurs) next week.
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ka3jjz
Wiki Admin Emeritus
Since this trunk is listed as Phase II in the database (and only the PSR-800 can do it - albeit with a serious problem with X2 decoding - with the recently-released beta firmware) I assume all you guys are using 800s to track this? Or is FIRST running Phase I during the break in period?
Curious...Mike
Curious...Mike
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troymail
Silent Key
Yes - using the GRE PSR-800 .. The ONLY scanner that can do this! (I might add)....
As far as I know this system is fully P2 but I assume, although I haven't seen it yet, that a P1 radio could/will appear at some point.
The 800 display tells us if it's P1 ("DG") or P2 ("D2") and I've only seen "D2" on this systms since the beta release last week.
dpcain and I have posted our details in this thread :wink:
dpm797
Member
My understanding is that the entire system is Phase II TDMA. We were told you must have an APX series radio to talk on the system.
troymail
Silent Key
It's probably an option but in theory there is supposed to be a "compatability" capability such that if a Phase 1 radio appears on a talkgroup, that talkgroup automatically goes to P1 mode for the duration. Of course, that then consumes 2 slots or "channels" for the duration which isn't good - particularly if you only have a small number of frequencies to start with. This is the mode PG is operating under using X2. The problem is if any P1 user simply turns the radio on the listen on a X2 (and P2?) system, it effectively immedately degrades the system capacity so I can understand why the State may not want to do that. Another reason might be to "nudge" people into coming onto the state system rather than keeping their own (and Motorola wants to sell more radios!)
The control channel still consumes a full (two slot) frequency (for now anyway) - which is actually bad because it still suffered somewhat from the modulation issues we've all experinced in the Phase 1 systems that have popped up in the area recently.
(Pvt) data (GPS, etc.?) consumes the full frequency (and appears alot but for very short durations).
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From what I remember PMO was active during the afternoon/evening for a short time and was the unit responsible for the Shock Trauma testing, communicating results back to Base. I was only catching that sporadically on the Baltimore site, which I receive very badly at my location. Actually, pretty much everything I've been getting is off AACo. The BC site is absolutely awful from my location, and that's why I'm barely getting 8561 and 8564
I suspect the novox keyups are users testing system connectivity by making sure they get the go-ahead beep when they TX. I don't usually see that phenomenon with active users (MdTA K P and TC units) but have been seeing it with RIDs that are in big gaps between those user sets, indicating it's likely mostly MdTA personnel getting ready and doing really crude testing.
Actually speaking of go-ahead beeps, I heard one of the MdTA guys posted to Key Station answer their radio in an enclosed, echoing environment the other day. I don't know if Motorola changed the noises their radios make for the APX, but the echo I heard of the go-ahead beep sounded exactly like the EDACS go-ahead tone I remember from Ocean City... where we used Harris radios. It sounds more like a ping in that environment, and it's totally distinctive. Are we SURE that everybody is being issued APX's, or is there a possibility that the upgraded XG100P/M or something similar has found its way out there?
RE radio waveforms, I think all radios being issued to new 700mHz users (e.g. the MdTA and eventually MSP) are set up to utilize Phase II only to minimize that degradation, as at full swing this system won't have the capacity to operate anywhere near full Phase I. And yes Troy, I think you're right about new users. It seems they're doing the user thing on a small version of their Region timescale: bring one in, start to work out the kinks, and shove another one on as soon as you've figured out the main issues with that first agency and OTAP the radios or go mess with the sites and controllers to fix it. It's certainly gotta get done pretty fast- MdTA has to be bug-free on FiRST and off UHF-low by 1 Jan to escape the FCC (not to mention MSP and their VHF-low crapfest).
I suspect the novox keyups are users testing system connectivity by making sure they get the go-ahead beep when they TX. I don't usually see that phenomenon with active users (MdTA K P and TC units) but have been seeing it with RIDs that are in big gaps between those user sets, indicating it's likely mostly MdTA personnel getting ready and doing really crude testing.
Actually speaking of go-ahead beeps, I heard one of the MdTA guys posted to Key Station answer their radio in an enclosed, echoing environment the other day. I don't know if Motorola changed the noises their radios make for the APX, but the echo I heard of the go-ahead beep sounded exactly like the EDACS go-ahead tone I remember from Ocean City... where we used Harris radios. It sounds more like a ping in that environment, and it's totally distinctive. Are we SURE that everybody is being issued APX's, or is there a possibility that the upgraded XG100P/M or something similar has found its way out there?
RE radio waveforms, I think all radios being issued to new 700mHz users (e.g. the MdTA and eventually MSP) are set up to utilize Phase II only to minimize that degradation, as at full swing this system won't have the capacity to operate anywhere near full Phase I. And yes Troy, I think you're right about new users. It seems they're doing the user thing on a small version of their Region timescale: bring one in, start to work out the kinks, and shove another one on as soon as you've figured out the main issues with that first agency and OTAP the radios or go mess with the sites and controllers to fix it. It's certainly gotta get done pretty fast- MdTA has to be bug-free on FiRST and off UHF-low by 1 Jan to escape the FCC (not to mention MSP and their VHF-low crapfest).
PJH
Member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2002
- Messages
- 3,621
dpcain said:
You don't use "channel plans" on these radios as you do scanners. If the control channels are in there (which being so new they will be fairly current) it gets what it needs to talk from the control channel. Its also called OTAP (Over the air programming) and is an option on these systems.
ka3jjz said:
You do not build out a Phase 2 system only to run Phase 1. This seems to be a popular misconception amoung many in the scanner community that you need to run older technolgy before "turning on" new stuff. This is all new from the ground up. This is a P2 system and not X2.
troymail said:
The talkgroup will only revert to a FDMA setup when the system is option for DDM (an OPTION), and that talkgroup is not strappped to TDMA. The control channels on these systems at the moment use the phase 1 FDMA and are considered as "advanced FDMA control channel", so there is no "modulation difference". I'd like to know how you came up with that or what example you can site.
Motorola chose to implement DDM to preserve customers’ existing investments. DDM
provides equivalent coverage as FDMA Phase 1. This preserves FDMA coverage advantages by using the family of over-the-air modulations used in all FDMA simulcast and P25 Phase 1 multicast systems. By reusing the modulation and the 9600 bps bit rate, DDM can be treated as just an enhanced “bit stream.” Because of this, DDM does not impact site spacing (coverage), station RF power levels, antennas, or radio frequency distribution equipment.
Phase 1 IV&D data uses 12.5 wide channel and the HPD channel uses 25khz.
It is true that if a FDMA radio affiates to a TDMA system is will go back to a 12.5 channel, but when designing systems to support this, that capacity is looked at and built out to support it. Its not like there are two guys sitting in a room with a sales guy. We have entire teams and reams of paper (yes paper) with all sorts of coverage and capacity solutions with the budget limitiations and to work within stated goals and performace specifications.
dpcain said:
If (and some departments turn them off) they are doing this, it only requires a quick press. If they are not getting a channel grant they will get a bonk tone in either configuration. If they were truely playing around, there would be a good chance that you would hear some sort of nearby feedback. We see this all the time when conventional users get their first trunked radios. Sometimes you hear good things.
The tones are the same since the first radios brought to market had them. You can also have some additional tones but what your normaly hearing is an echo from inside the patrol car. I have an addition tone set to mine with the encyption features enabled. Its all in the programming.
troymail
Silent Key
Many times we speculate - and then those who really know correct us...
So rather than "the radio gets absolutely everything to do with knob and zone assignments from the control channel upon affiliation and that information isn't permanently stored in the radio" which is one way to read what you just said, I think what you're trying to tell me is that upon affiliation, the client radio receives updates to its own knob-and-zone assignments when applicable from the control channel. That knob-and-zone assignment, which I think as a former Phase I user (though I'm clearly not the brightest bulb in this thread) logically must be stored in the radio so it is still usable in failsoft and direct functionality in event of failsoft fallback or going out of range of the system, is what I meant by the possibly not-perfect-techie-jargon term 'channel plan'.
And I read in several places as this system was being installed pre-testing that one of the major concerns of the FiRST team is that with a limited number of frequencies available they will have significant capacity issues if FDMA radios frequently affiliate with FiRST once it is at full running capacity- seems like similar stuff to what troymail is referring to (if not the same publications). Without offending your sarcasm, I don't think we plebes are at all assuming that this system has been planned by two guys running on a cranium-sphincter force feedback loop: instead we are using what we've gleaned from observation and research to draw out possibilities and talk over issues.
Turn who off? I'm just curious, I don't know what you mean. And yes, quite right- that's exactly what I'm seeing. A quick press with perhaps a quarter second of actual transmission of background noise. Sometimes not even that- just an RID popping up on my recording list, taking up about a second of recording space with no audible transmission at all.
I'm aware that what I'm hearing is an echo, and all of that is standard but programmable. What I was saying is that what I heard in that echo was not what I remember as the go-ahead-and-talk beep from motorola radios (albeit that's a memory from using XTS radios, not the new APX, but as you said yourself that shouldn't matter), but sounded exactly like the Harris version of that, indicating to my ears that I was hearing somebody in an echoing hallway talking into a Harris radio.
troymail
Silent Key
Statewide planning!
WELL! This is an interesting website.... :lol:
CAPRAD PUBLIC SAFETY DATABASE
Surprising number of frequencies assigned to the far ends of the state -- must be an expectation that these county's "local" public safety will be moving onto the system.
However, given that the complete build out is several years away, I'm sure this is just the initial planning info and subject to change.
WELL! This is an interesting website.... :lol:
CAPRAD PUBLIC SAFETY DATABASE
Surprising number of frequencies assigned to the far ends of the state -- must be an expectation that these county's "local" public safety will be moving onto the system.
However, given that the complete build out is several years away, I'm sure this is just the initial planning info and subject to change.
boatbod
Member
I left my PSR800 recording FIRST this weekend over here in Oxford. I saw several hits from the Elkton site on TG 8564 between midnight and 3am Sat morning although nothing I could readily identify, and considerable activity from the Queen Anne site on TG 7101 (Ft McHenry Tunnel).
Oh weird, so FMT is coming out over the QA site too? huh, guess some of their radios must be affiliating with it instead of BC.. or somebody over there like a bay bridge unit was listening.
(FYI 8564 is at last check a simulcast of MSP Barrack M VHF)
(FYI 8564 is at last check a simulcast of MSP Barrack M VHF)
troymail
Silent Key
I'm thinking the same --
So much for saving bandwidth when the talkgroup is being broadcast on at least 3 if not 4 different "sites" (thus 3-4 different frequencies). However, alot of it is probably just the novelty of the new radios. Things already seem to have settled down on the McHenry and Port talkgroups - they are far less chatty than they were in the first few days.
When you guys updated from Library 159 to 160 did you get the five new talkgroups? I didn't and I'm trying to figure out why. I performed the update and followed all of the prompts. I checked the CDAT on the PC first and it didn't show the new talkgroups and then I also did it on the scanner and no new groups were added. The only thing that I've done with the system is change the alpha tag for the system name, but was told that it doesn't matter. I was just wondering how all of you made out.
Thanks,
Rich C
Thanks,
Rich C
boatbod
Member
Haven't tried to merge in 160 yet. To be honest I'm kinda reluctant since my Upper Maryland Eastern Shore Consortium system is so heavily customized I'm concerned it may get trashed by attempting a library update. I'll probably just delete FIRST and re-import it.
I did the 160 update and it didn't include the new talkgroups. I have a thread going in the GRE forum about updates. Apparently I seem to be the only one using a PSR-800 that didn't know that updates don't include additions/deletions, only changes. My guess is that additions/deletions occur much more often than changes, but I could be wrong.
Just FYI the update doesn't automatically add new TGs. Just as an example of why this makes sense, think of having your hottie PSR decked out with all the PD talkgroups in your local system but god forbid you listen to public works, you'll have a heart attack at the terrible radio procedure. If the update includes TGs not already added, whap- you've suddenly got EVERYTHING you didn't want in there. Plenty of sneaky TGs jumping in that you might not want at all.
What the update will do immediately is change any updated sites/freqs and sort out any discrepancies with changes to currently loaded TGs. If you want new TGs in there you have to import them yourself. Or manually add, which isn't hard. I'm awkwardly exempt myself because I submitted those TGs in the first place. I have no need to do a library import, since those 5 adds were in my scanner before they were in RRDB. (at least I don't have to import anything yet... until somebody else gets their head in the game and has too much time on their hands like me )
What the update will do immediately is change any updated sites/freqs and sort out any discrepancies with changes to currently loaded TGs. If you want new TGs in there you have to import them yourself. Or manually add, which isn't hard. I'm awkwardly exempt myself because I submitted those TGs in the first place. I have no need to do a library import, since those 5 adds were in my scanner before they were in RRDB. (at least I don't have to import anything yet... until somebody else gets their head in the game and has too much time on their hands like me
)
