MotoNet CP+ - KC/St.Joe

[mtindor]

When I look at what I submitted:

Site Number 048:

Site Description:        Ashland
Site County Location:    Boone, MO
Site Location:           Hwy M & Calvin Rd, Ashland
Latitude:                N 38.76919
Longitude:               W -92.31433
Range:                   25 Miles

Site FCC Licenses: WQIV758

LCN    Frequency    Color Code
00     464.7625     2

My submission did not contain that frequency (I only submitted data for what I had personally verified). If I look at the other person's submission (that they sent me):

  Site 153-48

   LCN =  1  TX = 464.76250  RX = 469.76250  DCC =  2  CC
   LCN =  2  TX = 463.96250  RX = 468.96250  DCC =  2  CC
   LCN =  3  TX = 461.91250  RX = 466.91250  DCC =  2
   LCN =  4  TX = 461.52500  RX = 466.52500  DCC =  2
   LCN =  5  TX = 461.76750  RX = 466.73750  DCC =  3

It appears that the error was in their submission (I identified a few other errors, duplicated frequencies, bad TX/RX pairs, etc.)

Again, from my submission:

Site Number 045:

Site Description:        Moberly
Site County Location:    Randolph, MO
Site Location:           1805 N Morley St, Moberly
Latitude:                N 39.44253
Longitude:               W -92.43483
Range:                   25 Miles

Site FCC Licenses: WQYA823

LCN    Frequency    Color Code
00     461.5875     1

And from the other submission:

Site 153-45

   LCN =  1  TX = 461.58750  RX = 466.58750  DCC =  1  CC
   LCN =  2  TX = 462.23750  RX = 467.23750  DCC =  2  CC
   LCN =  3  TX = 461.88750  RX = 466.88750  DCC =  3

So again, the error was in the other user's submission. In this case, I would suspect the license is correct.

That is what appears to be the other user's source, and with the errors I spotted (but don't have time to verify and submit fixes). Believe me, I've submitted to many crowdsourced systems over the years, and the typical rule is "don't submit anything you personally didn't verify", and it appears that the submitter just submitted the map without verifying the data. It was for this reason, that while I had identified Site 10, since I had no LCN's or Color Codes identified (I was driving on the fringe of the sites coverage and didn't have a reliable enough signal long enough going up and down the hills), I didn't submit what I had. Since the repeater map turned on Site 10, I have submitted a follow up that adds the site data for it. It is also why my submission

I don't have access to the repeater maps but wish I could get my hands on one for the 2 Connect Plus systems that use the same system ID in Texas (they have the same site numbers at different locations in RRDB and one is split across two regions, so I'm curious if it is truly separate systems, or if it is actually one big system with wrong site data - and I'm not going to spend a week in West/Central Texas to find out, I'll just fix the DFW sites and let someone else deal with the other half).

I submitted to change the County to Caldwell, but not to change the site name from Cameron, so that appears to be an error on the RRDB Admins. I didn't catch the site name error, but have already re-submitted the County correction. Likewise, I caught the coordinates for the KCI site was wrong in my submission, and I have sent in a request to correct it as well.

Thank you. This project covered 5 days, and 1,500 miles (not counting the trip from Texas, that adds almost another 1,000 miles and 2 days), so it was my "social distancing" vacation.

Just so you know, I wasn't suggesting that your data was wrong. I was just pointing out some likely incorrect data in the actual network repeater map itself, which is not unusual. I've got copies of CON+ network repeater maps from all around my email, and most of them contain some errors as far as frequencies that were fat-fingered into the system.

I have no doubt that during your monitoring of some sites, you saw only certain LCNs in use -- even though the repeater map may have listed multiple additional LCNs. I had just wanted to point out to anyone relying upon a repeater map that it's not a representative of all of the _active_ repeaters at a site at any given time.

Mike

 

[Papagei]

Thanks for doing this - nice work!

I did a little keyboard sleuthing for Central Communications. I haven't come up with anything definitive, but here's what I have so far.

@mtindor probably knows about this already, but if you have a URL for them, try it at Wayback Machine . They periodically crawl the Web and take snapshots of sites. If a company goes out of business or gets bought, sometimes you can see an announcement about it on the last few times that archive.org captured their site. archive.org doesn't have a generic search (as far as I know), so you have to start with a URL; sometimes you can find one in an old print ad, or an online list of vendors or bidders that never got updated, or similar.

There is currently a Central Communications Credit Union in the KC area, which I think is the modern incarnation of an old Bell/AT&T/Western Electric employees' credit union. You have to subtract all the hits for it out of your search.

There is a Central Communications that is even a Ma Batwings dealer... but they're in New Hampshire. Central Communications - Security Systems | Motorola Radios |

There is also a Central Communications Systems, that does public address systems, fire alarms, etc... but they're in Massachusetts. Welcome To Central Communications Systerms, Inc.

It might work to contact either of those two places and explain that you're looking for the Central Communications in the Kansas City area. You might have to talk to someone who's worked there for a while, but they may have at least an old phone number or other contact information. (I know someone who works for a local small business in another industry, and he knows of at least a couple of other businesses in the same industry with the same or very similar name in other parts of the country. He occasionally gets calls for the other businesses, and has to redirect the caller to them.)

I also found a 2003 FCC report that mentions a Central Communications in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. They apparently held the license for some AM and FM broadcast stations in Wisconsin, and in 2003, were assigning the licenses to Maverick Media. ftp://ftp.fcc.gov/pub/Bureaus/MB/Public_Notices/Brdcst_Applications/ap030108.txt Looking at the Wikipedia pages for some of those stations, Central Communications was in the broadcast station business from at least 1984 to 2003. An older FCC application for WEAQ gives an address for them of 944 Harlem (or Harlam) Street, Altoona, WI, 54720.

 

[Papagei]

I missed the edit window, so forget most of what I said in my last post.

I looked at the new RadioReference wiki pages and I found out that Central Communications' location is known, but they really don't appear to have a Web site. They are apparently on Main Street in Sedalia; Google has a Street View photo of their shop.

Digging around in archive.org...

The 1999 capture of their home page mentions that they are a Motorola dealer: Central Communications - Your Complete Communications Solution

This 2009 capture is the last one that has two-way radios on it: Central Communications Service Co. - A World of Communications - One Solution

By 2010, their site only talks about computers and wireless Internet access: CentralComm.net | Wireless Internet Service Provider | 660.826.6747

 

[mwjones]

In my road trip, we didn't go to Sedalia, but as of 2018, Google Street View still shows them as having a Motorola Dealership sign hanging in front of the building (and their Google Business Listing has a pair of Motorola FRS radios "uploaded by the owner").

They also still own the web domain centralcommunications.com, but as you indicated, there is no website operating there - they likely are still using the e-mail service - since all of their licenses refer to an e-mail address with that domain - even without the website (I, alas, am guilty of that as well on my main website, although I have an "under construction" page so people know that something's supposed to be there).

With the exception of the Ashland site, where the license was just renewed in 2018, most of the other licenses come up for renewal in 2022-2024. Since even the two sites that are part of this Connect Plus system still have 11k2 emissions designators from the LTR radio system and no 7k60 DMR designators, updating the ownership might not be high on their priorities either.

Since the Connect Plus system was my focus, I didn't set up to monitor the frequencies to see if any of their LTR systems were still active.

 

[Papagei]

they likely are still using the e-mail service

Yeah, it still has an MX record that points to Google/Gmail. Unfortunately, it doesn't usually work anymore to Telnet in and ask the server if a particular email address is valid.

It has an A record too, but that points to a Charter IP that doesn't answer the phone. Maxmind says it's Spectrum in Sedalia, +/- 50 km.

 

[wbloss]

@mwjones - I note in site 7 Louisburg the freq 463.2625 appears twice in LCN 2 & 6.
Thoughts?
w

 

[mwjones]

@mwjones - I note in site 7 Louisburg the freq 463.2625 appears twice in LCN 2 & 6.

There was two submissions about the same time, mine, and another user's, where the other user just submitted the unverified "repeater map" that was broadcast over the air, mine was all submitted as verified (I literally drove 1,500 miles over 5 days collecting/verifying data with only what was licensed by the FCC and the Midwest Mobile map as my source.

When I visited Louisburg (too bad it wasn't fall, I enjoy a glass of hot apple cider from the cider mill), I was able to verify LCN 1-4, and I notate that as such in the Wiki Page.

Bottom line, if I didn't note it as verified in the Wiki for any site, your best bet is to verify it yourself, and then submit the appropriate corrections. I found no less than 5 errors in the repeater map (the other user sent it to me as a Private Conversation while I was working on the Wiki, so I was able to compare my notes to the repeater map - but since the other user's submission was "more complete" most of what was accepted by the RRDB team was that submission, but I filled in the blanks on many of the sites as far as location, etc.), so if I do another research trip the next time I visit, I will use the repeater map data to augment mine as a baseline, but it will still be verified.

A prime example is the Harrisonville site. The day I visited, the site was completely off the air, no control channel or voice channels at all (and I was parked at the gate to the tower site, as close as I could get and couldn't detect it), so everything, including the site number, is not verified.

 

[N0JRD]

Does anyone know if this system FCC Callsign WPUG700 (COMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT HOLDINGS, INC.) in Topeka is part of this system or not? I'm get a mix of dmr channels and a few with ltr burst every couple seconds.

 

[wbloss]

Look for the DMR Talkgroups. If they are like those in the database 6####### or 2###### they are part!

 

[mwjones]

Does anyone know if this system FCC Callsign WPUG700 (COMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT HOLDINGS, INC.) in Topeka is part of this system or not? I'm get a mix of dmr channels and a few with ltr burst every couple seconds.

It looks like that license belongs to the KC Wireless LTR/Passport system, based on the RRDB search. You could potentially be getting a distant bleed over from Hiawatha on the MotoNet CP+ system, which uses one of the frequencies from KC Wireless's system for its control channel, depending on your location.

It is also possible that KC Wireless may be starting to split channels off for conversion to DMR/TRBO, much like I saw being done at several of the MotoNet sites, since analog systems seem to slowly be going the way of the dinosaur.

 

[JRsTheMAN]

7103001 KC Zoo. Showed up last week. It's an odd one since their others are 6103001 - 6103010.

So the KC Zoo no longer uses their own private system that they built to get off of the city's trunking system from 10 years ago?

 

[KCoax]

So the KC Zoo no longer uses their own private system that they built to get off of the city's trunking system from 10 years ago?

Yes. They appear to be exclusively using MotoNet CP+. I don't frequently listen to it. I think mwjones, mentioned the UID's in the talk groups extend up to 610315. That would have them at 15 talk groups.

 

[mwjones]

I have my logs from the 2 1/2 hours I was monitoring the Channel 50 site on the afternoon of July 3 that reflects what talk groups were active:



Obviously, this was before anything was verified. I saw some of the same radios affiliate with different talkgroups in the highlighted range, so that identified them being the same entity. There was a few that were sufficient enough to label and add to the RRDB, the others are clearly part of the Zoo, but their specific use is not verified (this is also on the Unidentified Talkgroups Wiki page).

Of course I'm back in Dallas now, and don't have plans to be back in the KC area until late November, which by that time, the Zoo will seasonably have a lot less visitors, and I suspect much less radio traffic to go with it (and I'll likely not be on that side of town anyway).

 

[KCoax]

Tried to edit these into the wiki. Somehow I'm not getting the format correct and all the text wraps around as if it is in a paragraph.
6103001 "KC ZOO CH1 Administration"
6103002 "KC ZOO CH2 Guest Relations"
6103003 "KC ZOO CH3 Train Tram"
6103004 "KC ZOO CH4 Animal Dept"
6103005 "KC ZOO CH5 Animal Vet"
6103006 "KC ZOO CH6 HORT/Janitorial"
6103007 "KC ZOO CH7 EMS Security"
6103008 "KC ZOO CH8 Guest Relations"
6103009 "KC ZOO CH9 Building Maintenance"
6103010 "KC ZOO CH10 Exhibits Maintenance"
6103011 "KC ZOO CH11 Exhibits Janitorial"
6103012 "KC ZOO CH12"
6103013 "KC ZOO CH13"
6103014 "KC ZOO CH14"
6103015 "KC ZOO CH15 Africa Gift Shop"
6109101 "KC Street Car"
6111501 "LifeFlight Eagle"
7103001 "KC ZOO CH16 Occupancy Count"

 

[mtindor]

Tried to edit these into the wiki. Somehow I'm not getting the format correct and all the text wraps around as if it is in a paragraph.
6103001 "KC ZOO CH1 Administration"
6103002 "KC ZOO CH2 Guest Relations"
6103003 "KC ZOO CH3 Train Tram"
6103004 "KC ZOO CH4 Animal Dept"
6103005 "KC ZOO CH5 Animal Vet"
6103006 "KC ZOO CH6 HORT/Janitorial"
6103007 "KC ZOO CH7 EMS Security"
6103008 "KC ZOO CH8 Guest Relations"
6103009 "KC ZOO CH9 Building Maintenance"
6103010 "KC ZOO CH10 Exhibits Maintenance"
6103011 "KC ZOO CH11 Exhibits Janitorial"
6103012 "KC ZOO CH12"
6103013 "KC ZOO CH13"
6103014 "KC ZOO CH14"
6103015 "KC ZOO CH15 Africa Gift Shop"
6109101 "KC Street Car"
6111501 "LifeFlight Eagle"
7103001 "KC ZOO CH16 Occupancy Count"

If those are confirmed talkgroups (and I'm guessing they are), can you submit them to the actual system so that they can be added to the DB? Submit Data to RadioReference

And I am guessing that LifeFlight Eagle is not a zoo talkgroup, is that correct?

It doesn't help that the wiki lists unknown talkgroups by site. I am just sticking all of the KC Zoo stuff in one section (not put under a particular site).

I'll attempt to add them to the wiki for you if somebody else has not done so already.

Thanks

Mike

 

[mwjones]

The reason the Wiki Unidentified Talkgroups page was broken down by site, is so that people doing research can better identify what region a user is in - A talkgroup heard in Topeka would likely not be a company in St. Joe or Sedalia.

When I was monitoring, the KC Zoo was almost exclusively on the Channel 50 tower, which being just North of Swope Park would be the most logical site for their radios to affiliate with. If you look on the Wiki, the Zoo does appear in several partially identified talkgroups at that site.

The "KC Street Car" talkgroup is already in RRDB, and shouldn't be considered "Unidentified".

I agree though, with that data being complete on the zoo, they should be submitted to RRDB and ultimately not on the Wiki.

 

[mtindor]

The reason the Wiki Unidentified Talkgroups page was broken down by site, is so that people doing research can better identify what region a user is in - A talkgroup heard in Topeka would likely not be a company in St. Joe or Sedalia.

When I was monitoring, the KC Zoo was almost exclusively on the Channel 50 tower, which being just North of Swope Park would be the most logical site for their radios to affiliate with. If you look on the Wiki, the Zoo does appear in several partially identified talkgroups at that site.

The "KC Street Car" talkgroup is already in RRDB, and shouldn't be considered "Unidentified".

I agree though, with that data being complete on the zoo, they should be submitted to RRDB and ultimately not on the Wiki.

Ok thanks. Feel free to edit out whatever you don't think should be in the wiki. I just added it because that is what KCoax wanted. As long as it doesn't exist in the DB, it does belong in the wiki. And that is why I encouraged that @KCoax submit it to the DB (if he hasn't already -- he may have, and I wouldn't know). Better to have the information documented somewhere than nowhere

 

[KCoax]

I've got some more audio to review before I'll submit them to the DB. Maybe in a day or two, when I have time.

 

[scannerowner]

Isn't Life Flight Eagle encrypted?

 

[PVPD730]

Isn't Life Flight Eagle encrypted?

No. They're not encrypted. They also have 3 or 4 other talkgroups on the system that are strictly used for alerting crews at the Chillicothe, Odessa, and Harrisonville bases. Once the aircraft are up, they usually switch to the 31842 MARRS talkgroup or a satellite communications system. I'll try to get in touch with one of my contacts there to see what I can find out.