Orange County Florida Sheriff's Office Denies X2-TDMA System Monitoring Requests

[trunktracking]

Fellow Scanning Enthusiasts,

On June 18, 2012 (after moving to full-time radio encryption of every radio channel, 45 days previous) the Orange County Florida Sheriff's Office shared with me in a teleconference, (after waiting to speak with them about this issue for six months, and because of increased pressure placed on them by my local County Commissioner to meet with me) that I would not be given any further access (after 18 years of scanning their agency) to monitoring their radio system, in any way.

My requests included:

1. I am a citizen of Orange County Florida, have no criminal record and wish to purchase my own ($6K) MOTOROLA APX7000 Handheld Radio, for the expressed purpose of listening to (1) Non-Tactical Dispatch Talkgroup, known as SECTOR 4, for the purpose of feeling safe in my home.

2. A non-encrypted rebroadcast (with a 7 minute delay to promote officer safety) of routine (non-tactical) dispatch talkgroups, on their new MOTOROLA 800 Mhz. X2-TDMA Digital Radio System, so that citizens and the news media (who now have no radio monitoring access) may be informed of criminal activity.

3. A Computer Aided Dispatch System (Online) with Call Times, Showing Major Incidents Including Violent Crimes, for citizens to be knowledgeable of crimes which affect their lives. Example: a law enforcement helicopter was flying over someone's home, searching for a criminal. The current CAD does not offer call times nor major incidents.

Calls For Service

In that 30 minute teleconference, all of my requests were immediately DENIED by the Radio Communications Commander of The Orange County Florida Sheriff's Office.

If you share my view of "Transparency Within Local Government" and believe that you should have the right to listen to your local Public Safety Radio System's Routine Dispatch Channels, please LIKE this page and share your viewpoints.

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C.A.N.T.R.E.E. Website: C.A.N.T.R.E.E. : WX4ADX

After all, your local community could be next...

 

[JoeyC]

1. Make special exceptions for one citizen and you have to make an exception for all. Where does it end?
2. Who is paying for all that additional hardware and software?
3. If you call and ask what the helicopter is doing circling your house, they will tell you if there is any potential danger.

 

[leonzo]

Sir, I applaud your attempt to get access. I am a retired 30 plus year law enforcement officer. As more and more agencies go to full time encryption it is becoming obvious to me that they are moving further and further away from the basic principles of law enforcement in a democracy. Most police chiefs and Sheriff's of large agencies like Orange County have attended and graduated from the FBI National Academy which is a coveted training session that is a requirement for most large agencies leadership to have atended. One of the classes and lessons taught there is the history of law enforcement in the US derived from England and Sir Robert Peele. One of his basic tenents was that the police are the people and the people are the police. Or put another way all of society has a role in law enforcement and crime suppression. It's just that the police get paid for the full time attention to the matter. What does all of this has to do with scanning?

Well when agencies that provide basic police coverage to neighborhoods encrypt 100% of their radio traffic it locks the citizens out from being able to be part of the process of knowing what is occurring in their neighborhood and of being able to assist the police. It also further erodes faith and confidence in the police because as citizens we provide their funding and should be able to hear how it is being used.

After listening and being part of the police for over 30 years I know for a fact very little radio traffic on a dispatch channel is sensitive information. In the year 2012 there are so many ways to protect sensitive imformation that the excuse "we must encrypt everything for officer safety" is just plain wrong.

A middle ground compromnise that some agencies are using is to encrypt everything except dispatch. Dispatch is what most listeners are interested in. Car to car, detectives, narcotics, teletype and etc can be encrypted all they want. Dispatch being open allows citizens to hear, other agencies to hear and yes criminals to hear to. However, for over 30 years I locked up criminals with our radio information unencrypted. The majority of law enforcement agencies in the US still use unencrypted radios and they are still making arrests.

If an agency head won't listen to this argument then I am afraid the only other recourse is to go state by state in the state legislature and get a state law passed mandating that local police dispatch channels not be encrypted. The argument for such a law was stated above!

 

[radioman2001]

Another reason why I won't retire to Florida, if you can't trust your government to be transparent, then why live there and pay these people. If at all possible make sure the Sheriff if he or she is an elected official not get re-elected, and I agree it should be a state law (ie Sunshine Law as in Conn) that be enacted to take these people down a notch or two.

 

[microwave]

We had the same thing happen here in Jacksonville.
JSO(Jacksonville Sheriffs Office) got a new APCO 25 system a few years ago and all of their talkgroups are encrypted. The media here used to have radios. At first JSO said that it was a budget issue. The media said that they would pay to buy or rent the radios and pay a yearly fee for any needed maintenance. JSO then noted that they had to take the radios for public safety. It was reported by the TV stations that they were making it to the scene before JSO on many calls. Sound like a problem with the response time of JSO and not an issue with the media. Then JSO cited a radical interpretation of some obscure law that does not allow them to transmit personal information over the radios. The TV stations know not to disclose personal information regarding crimes or police activity. They have had access to this for years. It is very apparent to me that JSO has something to hide. I’m shocked at how many uniformed officers and civilian staff are arrested or reprimanded every year. We used to know what was happening immediately now the stories that happen in the morning show up on the evening news.
P.S. They have plans to encrypt every talkgroup. Fire/Rescue, EOC, City Parks, Lifeguards, Animal control, etc.

 

[microwave]

This article sums it up quite well.
Rich Jones on JSO scanner policy change | www.wokv.com

 

[WX4JCW]

Well honestly its a Florida law enforcement thing, OPD got mad because WFTV reported too many stories about OPD officers using excessive force, Val Demmings is now running for Congress and i have specifically confronted her on this as her platform is transparency (OMFG what a joke), and surprise her husband is sheriff and so he encrypts, i have traveled all lower 48 and Canada and no one is encryption happy as here in the sunshine state, the radio managers are idiots with an agenda (which is a dangerous thing) (and that is opinions of some of my friends in those agencies who have to deal with them) its a power trip thing, the Sherrif's and police chiefs dont know better, then they get a salesman from Motorola tells them all about the bad scanner listeners and the need to protect law enforcement from the community, oh well no one cared when OPD encrypted, the community is totally apathetic

 

[SCPD]

I would like to add what I know to this. Its better to try then not and never know. But Most agencies who have officialssent to the FBI training are taught about who the threat is, and ways to prevent the threat from crypling a agency. I wont go into it further. To have a establishment that runs properly and voids terrorism encryption is pushed. You are not taught about what the free man rights are or what he feels he needs at these trainings. Its all about your image and what the feds want. If your department also gets federal money it is required to go to these high end systems eventually and encrypt everything, specially if the feds have any use in the system. I hate to say it but eventually over time, all fire, police, basically anything government will be encrypted. Many more entities are encrypting all traffic such as parks, utilities. I will say this from my experience this option is mostly used in agencies that have serious management or personnel issues. For a fact. We are in odd times and mis management is occuring big time. There also is the invisible boogie man out there per these trainings. Basically all the radio users are included in this as possible threats. Whether your retired police, military, public guy, etc. Once your out of the agencies your pretty much forgotten unless your buddies in the loop still informs you.

One down side to encryption is I noticed not one agency is using the same keys. Every one even wantsto hide themself from another department as if they may be threats also. Fear of taking there calls, seeing issues within the other. This interop plan was a joke to begin with. All this money spent on radios capable of more channels, zones, talkgroups was a waste in our time since everyone wants to encrypt and have there own privacy keeping public joe out and trooper jim out. I would like to add the APCO group of officials and meetings are heavily pressed with persons from countries who are not people or public oriented and do make a imnpact on the encryption issue.

/\/\ also knows this is a troubled economy and like other corporate hog wash out there such as "reality tv" (complete joke and lie and trash) they are trying to make the most they can in this troubled time. Using 2012 as need for extra use of encryption, civil unrests etc. I do know you can thank the protestors who carry two ways for for encryption in those cities. There are people watching the public and they see everyone who carries a two way and what is posted here. /\/\ also sees this on these boards and many ask why dont /\/\ go after people for getting into talkgroup listening etc. Its old tech and /\/\ knows they can use this as push to convince a agency you better go tdma 2 etc because these terrorists or threats are watching and hearing you. Yes /\/\ has called us terrorists. I was at a meeting once where our agency was looking at upgrades and the sales reps and a tech all said "the threats are out there buying what you have, hearing what you have". /\/\ could care less of threats. They use any means to make a sale. Corporate hog wash.

Unless you have a Sheriff or Police Chief who has not been pro fed encryption is inevitable. Maybe this will show be careful who you vote for. Here people elected a ex federal agent as the Sheriff. He has destroyed the community policing standard beyond and made it a fear the public agency. Somewhere we have some very paranoid persons running these trainings and its pretty sad.

 

[SCPD]

I agree with you and would not live in a city or state who is anti public or not transparent.

Another reason why I won't retire to Florida, if you can't trust your government to be transparent, then why live there and pay these people. If at all possible make sure the Sheriff if he or she is an elected official not get re-elected, and I agree it should be a state law (ie Sunshine Law as in Conn) that be enacted to take these people down a notch or two.

 

[SCPD]

On this subject of media and police. Albuquerque NM has talked of a new system that cant be monitored due to media hearing there talkgroups on the system. They know and are aware the cat has been out the bag to hear them jsut go buy a LPE200 or other model. They never cared until they changed admin and new officers being hired were not mentally fit for the job, shooting unarmed men/women, beating folks for no reason. The media caught on and so did the State Attorney General along with the FBI for officers involved in gang activity. They are now talking about moving up to a system that nobody can hear at all. Its funny though they are not bothered by the net feed mostly by media hearing as they know the media locally has LPE200s to listen.

 

[SCPD]

This is also why I have been holding off from buying anything new. I did buy a APX7000xe but am holding off from anything else since systems are changing and encryption being deployed all over. I do not want to go buy several items then have no use when a xys2500 can easily do basic radio stuff in the areas I go to if I cant hear anything in public safety or goverment. I would also like to add El Paso county Texas sheriff is more people oriented and is the reason the county stays on the VHFsystem and hasnt gone to the type II city system. He has been pressed heavily to go to the new El Paso Regional p25 700mhz future system which entails full time encryption use. His office is known for upholding the peoples rights unlike EPPD.

 

[SCPD]

Once El Paso region goes to this future 700mhz apco trunk setup it will move the TXDPS onto it in the ELP region. It is currntly being built. It calls for like I said full time Encryption carrying TXDPS, El Paso Police, Horizon city, Anthony, Socorro, Van Horn, and mostly everyone in that region. EPSO has held off but idk if theyll end up jumping on it. The encryption is determined because some feel being by Juarez Mexico and a border area it is in the safety of the officers and public to cose out everyone.

This is also why I have been holding off from buying anything new. I did buy a APX7000xe but am holding off from anything else since systems are changing and encryption being deployed all over. I do not want to go buy several items then have no use when a xys2500 can easily do basic radio stuff in the areas I go to if I cant hear anything in public safety or goverment. I would also like to add El Paso county Texas sheriff is more people oriented and is the reason the county stays on the VHFsystem and hasnt gone to the type II city system. He has been pressed heavily to go to the new El Paso Regional p25 700mhz future system which entails full time encryption use. His office is known for upholding the peoples rights unlike EPPD.

 

[lindsay34654]

When you go encrypted the main reason is not officer safety it is mostly officer stupidity. How many times have you heard useless chatter that has no business on the airwaves. I had one officer make a comment to me one day when he saw my scanner in my car, oh your one of them,(ignorant comment) I asked what he meant and he stated, one of those that chase police calls. I came back with yah I am one of them, a former LEO that wants to avoid incidents and also I use it like probily 95% of us for entertainment. His whole attitude changed. Instead of hideing clean up your department. This is also called failure to inform the public. I was asked in Orange County once if I had observed an incident (looking for a person on 192) while I was walking near where an assault had taken place. I said no if I would have heard the discription at the time on my scanner (396xt) I might have been on the look out for the person. This you can't hear me stuff is nothing but crap.

 

[Confuzzled]

(after waiting to speak with them about this issue for six months, and because of increased pressure placed on them by my local County Commissioner to meet with me)

So go back to them and get the media involved to have the county enact an ordinance allowing media access. This matter should not be left up to any LE agency when tax dollars are involved.

Even TAC channels should be recorded, encrypted or not, and provided to the media no later than 'X' hours after the conclusion of any incident. LE agencies should not be able to deny Freedom of Information requests with the possible exception of identities of juveniles and sex/domestic assault victims.

The LE agency isn't going to do it unless they're told to by the governing body that hold the finances.

 

[WX4JCW]

The problem is the news agencies have all of a sudden given up here for some reason, not like in Jacksonville, and unfortunately alot of the citizens of the county (enough to put pressure on the city council or county commission) could care less, so they do what they want to do and they know this, this is why they come in here and act arrogant

 

[trunktracking]

I just submitted an iReport about this topic to CNN:

Orange County Florida Sheriff's Office Denies Radio System Monitoring Access Requests. - CNN iReport

 

[NYRHKY94]

While radio manufacturers are certainly playing a key role in the move to encryption, the decision itself to silence "ALL" comms is ultimately a POLICY decision made by elected/appointed officials at the local/state government level. Typically, if not always, the police chief in any town/city "reports to" a town manager/mayor, who in turn reports to or works with the Board of Selectman/Alderman/Council to enact policies and/or ordinances. And they all ultimately report to the citizens of the town/city that elected them.

In my experience working for and with local government, all "policy" decisions (like shutting of all comms from the citizens they serve) would have been run through the policy chain of command I outlined: Police Chief => Town Manager/Mayor => Board of Selectman/City Council etc. If tranparency in government is indeed important and government officials can maintain that without compromising senstive operations, it appears to me that encrypting full-time is not so much a radio manufacturer sales pitch as it is a conscious policy decision made collectively by those that serve us.

My bigger point here is that policy makers above the police chief play a much bigger role in these encryption decisions......and they appear to be getting a huge hall pass from taxpayers & the media IMO. Like any policy decision and/or ordinance, the decision to encrypt all comms is NOT permanent. Given enough "political" pressure placed on government officials (not police chiefs) from the taxpayers they serve, a compromise solution can and will be found. Whether it's FLA or another state....

P.S. I absolutely agree with the premise that a well-schooled police chief who understands the bigger picture, will more likely than not lead to the more intelligent decision to remain transparent to those they serve (their citizens) and not encrypt all comms.

Just saying.....