PA State Police Struggle with OpenSky Issues

[HM1529]

Today there was a hearing in front of a Senate of PA Committee. PSP basically said the OpenSky is being phased out and a new P 25 system will be in it's place.. It was also mentioned that the Attorney General should be notified and Ma/Com, Tyco should be investigated for not providing a system according to the contract.. just like New York State and Lancaster County is doing. When the meeting is placed on the Senate Website, everyone needs to watch it and hearing OpenSky is a disaster..

This was a joint session held by four Senate committees. I'm not sure where the video/transcripts will appear online...could be on any one of the four committee chair's websites...or maybe all four of them. I know Lisa Baker has held committee sessions on this topic several times in the past with the Veterans Affairs and Emergency Preparedness committee.

From Vukovich's website:

Committees to be updated on statewide radio effort
September 23, 2013

Senator Randy Vulakovich announced that the Senate Communications and Technology Committee, which he chairs, will meet in joint session with the Senate Law and Justice Committee, the Senate Transportation Committee and the Senate Veterans Affairs and Emergency Preparedness Committee to hold a joint public hearing to receive an update on the statewide radio system.

The hearing is set for 9:30 a.m., Wednesday, September 25, in Hearing Room 1 of the North Office Building in the state capitol complex.

“This has been a long and costly process and we believe it is time to receive an update from state and local officials to determine what progress has been made, the effectiveness of the system and if there is a timetable for having the system fully operational,” said Sen. Vulakovich, a former police sergeant and current member of the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency.

“When disaster strikes, a working radio may be the only lifeline our first responders have,” said Senator Lisa Baker, Chair of the Senate Veterans Affairs & Emergency Preparedness Committee. “As legislators, we will continue to investigate and advocate for an emergency communications system that works everywhere, every time, because 100 percent reliable, immediate, two-way communication is the backbone of our emergency response network.”

Scheduled testifiers include: Major Scott Neal, Director of the Bureau of Communications and Information Systems for the Pennsylvania State Police; Glenn Cannon, Director of the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency; Cumberland County Commissioner Barbara Cross, representing the County Commissioners Association of Pennsylvania; and York Area Regional Police Department Chief Thomas Gross, representing the Pennsylvania Chiefs of Police Association.

Contacts:

Diane McNaughton, Executive Director, Veterans Affairs & Emergency Preparedness Committee (717) 787-7428
Heather Cevasco, Chief of Staff to Senator McIlhinney, Law & Justice Committee (717) 787-7305
Nate Silcox, Executive Director, Communications & Technology Committee (717) 787-6538
Nathan Spade, Executive Director, Transportation Committee (717) 787-1398

 

[HM1529]

I should have finished looking around first. Here ya go:

Communications & Technology Committee | Joint Hearing on the Statewide Radio System

 

[Drachen_Fire]

I love the second testimony in favor of OpenSky, where the Cumberland County rep basically makes the case that as the T-band is vacated, interop with neighboring counties would be lost because they wouldn't have OpenSky (?). Not sure how that is supposed to work at all. She's basically saying that the surrounding areas are too poor to buy P25 gear, but they can afford OpenSky.

I can buy an XTS3000 on ebay for $380. You know what I can't buy on eBay for $380? Anything with a Harris nametag stamped on it.

 

[phillydjdan]

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Im looking forward to seeing this hybrid VHF/800 P25 system rolled out.

 

[dmg1969]

Today there was a hearing in front of a Senate of PA Committee. PSP basically said the OpenSky is being phased out and a new P 25 system will be in it's place.. It was also mentioned that the Attorney General should be notified and Ma/Com, Tyco should be investigated for not providing a system according to the contract.. just like New York State and Lancaster County is doing. When the meeting is placed on the Senate Website, everyone needs to watch it and hearing OpenSky is a disaster..

I certainly hope that the state dumps Open Sky like it sounds like is possible and adopts something that can be monitored. Going to watch the hearing video now.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[phillydjdan]

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From what I gathered from the video, it sounds like the state police guy isnt giving the senate any choice. He has made up his mind that openscam is outta here, and im pretty sure the senators are going to side with him. Eliminate micro cell sites, maint costs, and other costs? They are say where do I sign? Lol

 

[2wayfreq]

They need to trash that "Broken-Sky" as soon as humanly possible. Las Vegas is pulling the plug as well, they absolutely hate it! Looks like Motorola will be taking advantage of replacing these bad systems.

 

[rrbum]

Great news. Now all we'll need is a scanner capable of phase two P25, that is if they don't encrypt everything. The big selling point of the open-sewer system was the fact that it was unmonitorable. The ignorant legislators heard this and soiled their knickers. Too stupid to understand that most people who monitor are good productive citizens and are an asset to the police.

 

[Drachen_Fire]

They will likely not drop the cash necessary for a Phase II system, and they likely won't pay the extra cost to encrypt. Many of these guys are going to realize that they've been duped by the "unscannable" rhetoric before, and it cost them big-time.

For a hybrid VHF/800 system, see VA STARS. The main system is VHF, but all of the troopers carry 800MHz radios. I think it involves a modern version of the PAC-RT.

 

[Drachen_Fire]

Also, forgot to add the following:

OpenSky makes state police traffic more-than-scannable, for sure. I took a drive from Pittsburgh to Erie and back today. It apparently works so well that the old VHF channels had constant traffic on them the entire time.

 

[phillydjdan]

LOL, yeah I guess that is true. I hear activity regularly on VHF out here in Philly also. As for the new system being hybrid, the PSP guy was saying in his testimony that they want to make the rural tower sites VHF and urban tower sites 800MHz and tie them together. He said this was because there aren't enough open VHF frequencies in the urban areas to license to them. I don't agree with that, I'm sure they could get enough channels or use the ones they already have. I mean, the OpenScam system has only 2 or 3 frequencies on each tower, so their existing conventional channels would be more than enough I would think. Maybe I'm wrong. All I know is, I'm glad Harris's days are numbered. Hopefully they sue the crap out of them, or better yet, throw someone in jail.

 

[talviar]

LOL, yeah I guess that is true. I hear activity regularly on VHF out here in Philly also. As for the new system being hybrid, the PSP guy was saying in his testimony that they want to make the rural tower sites VHF and urban tower sites 800MHz and tie them together. He said this was because there aren't enough open VHF frequencies in the urban areas to license to them. I don't agree with that, I'm sure they could get enough channels or use the ones they already have. I mean, the OpenScam system has only 2 or 3 frequencies on each tower, so their existing conventional channels would be more than enough I would think. Maybe I'm wrong. All I know is, I'm glad Harris's days are numbered. Hopefully they sue the crap out of them, or better yet, throw someone in jail.

While each tower has 2 or 3 freqs available on each tower. . . the reality of it is there are 4 to 6 freqs in use at each tower. . .each repeater output has a corresponding repeater input.

Add on to that, you now need to get the # of freqs needed for repeater outputs to have corresponding inputs with enough isolation to not be a problem while using a transmit combiner and receive multicoupler. . . .Combining VHF TX's on a single antenna is a bit of a nightmare.

Then combine that with the lack of available VHF freqs. . . . . Dedicated control channel trunking requires clear channel within something like 60-75 miles of a tower site. . . . . EACH tower site. . . . high profile sites with wide open coverage are looked at and may require more seperation.

High band is a lot more populated than you think. . . . Had a spectrum analyzer at Point Lookout-Summit Mt- RT 40-Fayette County a few weeks back with merely a hand held VHF antenna on the top of the analyzer and couldn't believe how much activity was on high band.

As always, this is my $2.25 and YMMV!

 

[GTR8000]

I mean, the OpenScam system has only 2 or 3 frequencies on each tower, so their existing conventional channels would be more than enough I would think. Maybe I'm wrong.

OpenSky is 4-slot TDMA within each 25 kHz 800 MHz channel. You're effectively getting four "channels" out of a single 800 MHz frequency. Multiply that by each frequency at a site, and the system clearly has much more capacity than can be had with VHF frequencies. You obviously need two VHF frequencies, one input and one output, to constitute a repeated pair. Because VHF doesn't pair up frequencies with standard offsets like UHF, 700 and 800, it leads to a hassle trying to find two paired VHF frequencies per-site that A) don't interfere with co-channel users, B) have decent frequency separation, and C) finding enough of them to meet the demands needed per-site.

Also keep in mind the fact that OpenSky does not require a dedicated control channel, so you're not losing an entire frequency per-site for that purpose. Even with P25 Phase II TDMA, you may double your talkpath capacity per voice channel, but you still lose an entire frequency to the FDMA control channel. On 800 MHz, you lose even more capacity because P25 is 2-slot TDMA in a 12.5 kHz channel, versus the aforementioned 4-slot TDMA in a 25 kHz channel for OpenSky. All of the STARNet 800 MHz frequencies are licensed for 25 kHz bandwidth. Converting OpenSky to P25 Phase II means you're essentially "wasting" 12.5 kHz bandwidth per 800 MHz frequency. Yes, 2-slot TDMA in 12.5 kHz is the same mathematically as 4-slot TDMA in 25 kHz...but because P25 isn't capable of 4-slot TDMA, that leftover 12.5 kHz goes unused.

OpenSky is garbage, don't get me wrong...but it does offer double the capacity per 25 kHz 800 MHz frequency than P25 Phase II would, as well as the four additional talkpaths on what becomes the dedicated P25 control channel frequency. A three frequency STARNet site goes from 12 talkpaths with OpenSky down to just 4 talkpaths with P25 Phase II. Can't argue with the math in that regard.

 

[radiomanNJ1]

Don't count on listening to the new P25 systems when they get up. Encryption is free and it will be a phase 2. Unless you have a PSR800 or someone else comes up the equivalent or better (hopefully)
you will be out of luck.
The VHF stuff works. When we drive through PA the mountain top sites seem to work well.

 

[phillydjdan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, regardless of Phase 1 or Phase 2, encryption is a firmware upgrade that does cost money per radio (I think I heard like $1,000 per). So, if this is the case, then no, encryption is not free. And since one of the current goals the PSP guy was testifying about was interopability, I would think that they would not encrypt everything. Maybe some channels, sure, but I highly doubt the common barracks channels will be. Encrypting them would go against their goal.

Chauffer, thank you for the lesson on OpenScam. I did not know all of the technical info, so now I do. It makes sense. And I'm also sure they will work out the details and make it work. It will probably end up costing less than the OpenScam system. I dunno, do you think they can put a P25 system together for less than $300 million? I sure hope so! lol

So this PSP guy says he wants the VHF frequencies for rural sites, because they can get the frequencies easier (not as much use in VHF versus urban areas), and then use 800MHz on the urban sites where they can't get the VHF frequencies as easy.

The more interesting point he made was testifying that they (PSP) had already purchased dual band APX radios for this purpose. So he already put his eggs in one basket, so to speak lol.

 

[talviar]

The more interesting point he made was testifying that they (PSP) had already purchased dual band APX radios for this purpose. So he already put
his eggs in one basket, so to speak lol.

Incorrect. . . .The dual-band APX radios were purchased either VHF/UHF or VHF/700/800 depending on where the barracks is located to be able to communicate with the local police departments to maintain day-to-day operations with the locals.

APX Radios installed in cars operating out of Pittsburgh barracks are VHF/UHF to allow the Pittsburgh car to talk to Allegheny 911 and the various Allegheny Co PD's while APX radios installed in cars operating out of Uniontown barracks are VHF/700/800 and are in process of being programmed to allow communications on the current Fayette Smartnet trunking system to allow PSP to communicate with the local Police AND responders.

Continuing with encryption. . . .
If the radios and consoles are strictly Motorola then ADP encryption can be installed in each radio for $18 at time of purchase unless OTAR and OTAP are needed then the cost starts going up to allow the OTA functions to be implemented. . . . If added after the fact that $18 becomes $75 + radio tech time to go out and flash the radio. Disadvantage to ADP is it locks the radio subscriber to a Moto only radio. . . .

Trust me when I say they will be electing for an open encryption standard (open not meaning open source but industry standard recognized encryption) such as AES. Cost for AES per radio will be quite a bit if at time of purchase on radio, and substantially more if purchased after the fact as it is hardware installed in the radio plus the flash to turn it on (in motorola radios, unsure on other vendors) since this will basically allow them to purchase a subcriber unit from lowest cost vendor when the bid hits the street for future purchases (and for other organizations within the state wanting to use the system)

As always, there will be those that question me, but the folks that know me know who I work for and with on an almost daily basis. . . .

Later!
T

 

[phillydjdan]

I'm not doubting you, Tony. I guess I stand corrected lol. In any event, I am anxiously waiting for this thing to come to fruition. We shall see!

 

[HM1529]

OpenSky is garbage, don't get me wrong...but it does offer double the capacity per 25 kHz 800 MHz frequency than P25 Phase II would, as well as the four additional talkpaths on what becomes the dedicated P25 control channel frequency. A three frequency STARNet site goes from 12 talkpaths with OpenSky down to just 4 talkpaths with P25 Phase II. Can't argue with the math in that regard.

I believe this was one of the selling points years ago...lots of capacity, fewer needed frequencies.

It will be interesting to see what happens with frequency usage. I would imagine they're going to have to use more 700MHz than 800MHz in some areas. In the rural areas, they may utilize existing VHF from PSP and DCNR? I guess we will have to wait and see.

I think the move is the right idea, but I find it frustrating that years ago PA could have moved in the direction of Virginia, Wisconsin, and other statewide systems that utilized something other than 800MHz. Pennsylvania's terrain is just not good for 800 in many areas.

This will be a headache for frequency coordination, though. All those urban sites are definitely going to need more 800MHz allocations. There is a lot of VHF highband in use along the northern tier...exactly where PA is going to be looking for VHF highband real estate for the system.

 

[rrbum]

Don't count on listening to the new P25 systems when they get up. Encryption is free and it will be a phase 2. Unless you have a PSR800 or someone else comes up the equivalent or better (hopefully)
you will be out of luck.

I agree completely. Hopefully there is demand enough for Uniden to produce something. I guess R&D must be prohibitively expensive as I don't understand why they have no scanners with the capability. They must figure there is not enough demand. Or the popularity of encryption has indeed killed the hobby.

 

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.80 (BREW; Opera Mini/6.0.3/27.2338; U; en) Presto/2.8.119 320X240 LG VN530)

There is supposed to be an announcement from Uniden come Nov 16th. However, any new models will not hit the streets until sometime after the new year, (they may be showcased at the CES show in Jan?) from what I understand in other threads here on RR.
Also, Whistler has announced that they are going to come out with some of GRE's models under new designations, and will continue to develop and market newer models in the near future. Check the GRE and Community Announcement forums here.
So, we'll just have to wait and see what new scanner models will be capable of in the coming year.