N
N_Jay
Guest
Yes, they would need to support the modulation, channel coding and vocoder formats selected for P25 Phase 2 to receive P25 Phase 2 TDMA.
AND,
That would not make them able to receive any of the MANY other TDMA formats.
Pima County to go Motorola P25 Phase II
- Thread starter 2wayfreq
- Start date
- Status
AND,
That would not make them able to receive any of the MANY other TDMA formats.
Without this turning into a bashing session or even slightly heading that way, it doesn't really matter what they go to, what variant of TDMA, P25, or ..., we have to live with it.
My offer to test a scanner that will work with it still stands
My offer to test a scanner that will work with it still stands
APORATH
Member
Even if there is going to be a scanner that will decode P25 Phase 2 TDMA, the Motorola APX radios will have powerful encryption algorithms and text messaging. So the only activity you will most likely hear on these P25 Phase 2 scanners will be dispatch (if you're lucky, and the systems are not completely encrypted like Marana PD is). The pricing of these scanners will probably be WAY out of reach for most of us and will most likely be not worth blowing $800 or a $1,000 on a scanner that will pick up only the Police dispatch channels, and some businesses. So Tucsonans, enjoy the scanning hobby while you can!
N
N_Jay
Guest
1) Encryption has been available for quite a while.
Yes, its use is going up some but it is not becoming universally applied.
2) Given the market, and the fact that the technology for decoding P25 TDMA should not be significantly more difficult as it becomes popular when compared to P25 Phase 2 when it was first released, I don't know why scanners would be appreciably more expensive.
'
Yes, its use is going up some but it is not becoming universally applied.
2) Given the market, and the fact that the technology for decoding P25 TDMA should not be significantly more difficult as it becomes popular when compared to P25 Phase 2 when it was first released, I don't know why scanners would be appreciably more expensive.
'
APX6000
Member
Is Pima county going to use Motorola APX Subscriber units?
USScanner
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2005
- Messages
- 46
Yes, they will be buying APX radios, most likely dual band VHF/700/800 radios. (700&800Mhz are considered one band by Motorola) Phase II will be the new Motorola system for agencies going 700Mhz and will be mandatory within a few years for all 700Mhz systems.
It would not surprise me if Pima County incorporates Motorola LTE for data instead of Verizon or a cell company.
Agencies like Maricopa County Sheriff who are planning an upgrade within the next year will most likely go Phase II 700Mhz from the start. This will save them money in the long run so they will not be forced to upgrade their system within a few years. City of Phoenix will start within a few years of upgrading the systems they have in 700Mhz to Phase II.
No scanner will decode this system at this time. With companies focusing on the smart any user radios I am not sure what future development holds for scanners past what is out now PSR500/BC396XT series.or if decoding is possible..
Last edited:
APX6000
Member
Thanks for the info k.
Orlaam
Member
The time is slowly approaching that will push scanner users out of the market entirely. As far as I'm concerned they lost me at APCO-25 digital. Now all these new ridiculous upgrades they don't need. They don't want us listening, bottom line.
It's too bad radio in general has died so much over the years. Ham, HF, SW, and scanning are nothing like they were and never will be again.
It's too bad radio in general has died so much over the years. Ham, HF, SW, and scanning are nothing like they were and never will be again.
JRayfield
Member
Regarding comments that narrowband TDMA won't work well, that's simply not correct. It 'can' and it already 'does' work well.
MOTOTRBO works VERY well, and it's narrowband TDMA. I would go so far as to say that it outperforms anything that I've seen in commercial communications technolgy, over the last 32 years.
As to comparing cellular TDMA to current-technology narrowband TDMA, I wouldn't even begin to do that. The current technology is much improved over 'old' technology.
As to past experience - I worked on Motorola Motrac's and Aerotron tube-type base stations 30 years ago, but that doesn't do much for me now at all, working with MOTOTRBO equipment and systems. Some of the 'basic' circuit design in digital equipment isn't even the same as 'basic' designs in old equipment.
John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma
MOTOTRBO works VERY well, and it's narrowband TDMA. I would go so far as to say that it outperforms anything that I've seen in commercial communications technolgy, over the last 32 years.
As to comparing cellular TDMA to current-technology narrowband TDMA, I wouldn't even begin to do that. The current technology is much improved over 'old' technology.
As to past experience - I worked on Motorola Motrac's and Aerotron tube-type base stations 30 years ago, but that doesn't do much for me now at all, working with MOTOTRBO equipment and systems. Some of the 'basic' circuit design in digital equipment isn't even the same as 'basic' designs in old equipment.
John Rayfield, Jr. - CETma
Last edited:
USScanner
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2005
- Messages
- 46
Not sure if Motorola would sell or allow a company to develop a scanner with TDMA. Upgrading requires money. Agencies can stay 800Mhz and not do TDMA or go 700Mhz and be forced to do TDMA. From what I hear if they want to allow system linking to a TDMA Phase II system, both systems will have to be TDMA to patch correctly. The planned linking goes from Phoenix, Yuma & San Diego. Phoenix, Yuma & San Diego are Phase I.
Phoenix, Yuma & San Diego all sublet to federal agencies, they may put up a large sum to fund Phase I systems into Phase II??
Phase II systems became available for sale within the past few months. Its new and time will tell. A company has to purchase the technology, produce and test a scanner..could take a few years?
With system expansions and the "planned" 700Mhz DPS statewide system I am sure smaller agencies will join for interoperability.
Look at the Alaska system, many smaller agencies joined and city workers are encrypted. Not saying that would happen here, its what they did.
Last edited:
jim202
Member
Let me throw a curve to the topic here. There has been some interest in the use of TETRA now for
both utilities and public safety. Since Motorola had been fighting to keep TETRA out of the US
for so long, that stand has now changed. There are a number of companies that have TETRA
systems up and running around the world. It has found a place in law agencies that enjoy the
abilities in the TETRA systems.
With that said, there seems to be some questions popping up within the larger public safety
agencies that maybe the P25 route is not the way to go. There has been major push back in
adopting the P25 standard by one or more of the radio companies. No names given here, but
they keep trying to put proprietary features into the radios and muddy the waters of the P25
standard. The P25 standards group has been working on this standard for how many years
now and is no closer to being done than they were when they started. This again is due to the
foot dragging of one or more of the radio companies being able to sway the standards to their
advantage.
Motorola has been very aggressive in their sales pitch to go to the P25 phase 2. Problem is the
standard has yet to define just what phase 2 is. I wouldn't want to spend millions on a new radio
system until the P25 phase 2 standard is cast into concrete. Maybe Motorola will be able to sway
the standards committee to using what Motorola has come up with. Me, I thinks my money would
be better spent staying in the bank for right now.
The other issue is once you step into Motorola's P25 phase 2, no radio you have now will be able
to work on that system. So not only are you going to totally replace every radio your agency has,
but now you have no way of any of your surrounding agencies being able to talk with you directly.
You will have to set up some channels that can still talk to the other agencies with the older radios.
Does this sound like a smart move and still have "INTEROPERABILITY"? Me thinks not. Will the
tax payers in your jurisdiction be happy to pay for a new, non standard radio system format? I don't
think so. Your existing radio system is probably functioning just fine in the digital mode that
Motorola sold you just a few years back. Best you take a long hard look at where you stand
today, before you jump into the pot that Motorola is giving you the sales pitch for.
\
both utilities and public safety. Since Motorola had been fighting to keep TETRA out of the US
for so long, that stand has now changed. There are a number of companies that have TETRA
systems up and running around the world. It has found a place in law agencies that enjoy the
abilities in the TETRA systems.
With that said, there seems to be some questions popping up within the larger public safety
agencies that maybe the P25 route is not the way to go. There has been major push back in
adopting the P25 standard by one or more of the radio companies. No names given here, but
they keep trying to put proprietary features into the radios and muddy the waters of the P25
standard. The P25 standards group has been working on this standard for how many years
now and is no closer to being done than they were when they started. This again is due to the
foot dragging of one or more of the radio companies being able to sway the standards to their
advantage.
Motorola has been very aggressive in their sales pitch to go to the P25 phase 2. Problem is the
standard has yet to define just what phase 2 is. I wouldn't want to spend millions on a new radio
system until the P25 phase 2 standard is cast into concrete. Maybe Motorola will be able to sway
the standards committee to using what Motorola has come up with. Me, I thinks my money would
be better spent staying in the bank for right now.
The other issue is once you step into Motorola's P25 phase 2, no radio you have now will be able
to work on that system. So not only are you going to totally replace every radio your agency has,
but now you have no way of any of your surrounding agencies being able to talk with you directly.
You will have to set up some channels that can still talk to the other agencies with the older radios.
Does this sound like a smart move and still have "INTEROPERABILITY"? Me thinks not. Will the
tax payers in your jurisdiction be happy to pay for a new, non standard radio system format? I don't
think so. Your existing radio system is probably functioning just fine in the digital mode that
Motorola sold you just a few years back. Best you take a long hard look at where you stand
today, before you jump into the pot that Motorola is giving you the sales pitch for.
\
Last edited:
And just to add a little more to the last post,
Several participants of the new county wide system, have already bowed out. They will keep their analog radio systems, rather than being a part of PCWIN.
PCWIN was going to have its MDT's operating in the 700mhz frequency range, but now most of the participants will be maintaining their own MDT's, they currently operate today.
Voice will be in 800mhz frequency range.
They are also still trying to pay for infrastructure, as well as all of the other things that go with this new system. Politics at its best. Yet, several times a week, they prove that the current analog GATEWAY system works just fine down here for the Public Safety folks, Fire and Police.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
Several participants of the new county wide system, have already bowed out. They will keep their analog radio systems, rather than being a part of PCWIN.
PCWIN was going to have its MDT's operating in the 700mhz frequency range, but now most of the participants will be maintaining their own MDT's, they currently operate today.
Voice will be in 800mhz frequency range.
They are also still trying to pay for infrastructure, as well as all of the other things that go with this new system. Politics at its best. Yet, several times a week, they prove that the current analog GATEWAY system works just fine down here for the Public Safety folks, Fire and Police.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
Interesting,
In my neck of the woods, our County is currently upgrading sites and will probably cut over around mid 2012. 800 trunking licenses will be surrendered and replaced by new 700MHz voice channels so no re-banding is required. And, can be tested/optimized at the same time the old EDACS 800 system is still running. AES-256 Encryption will be used so a scanner will be a thing of the past out here.
In my neck of the woods, our County is currently upgrading sites and will probably cut over around mid 2012. 800 trunking licenses will be surrendered and replaced by new 700MHz voice channels so no re-banding is required. And, can be tested/optimized at the same time the old EDACS 800 system is still running. AES-256 Encryption will be used so a scanner will be a thing of the past out here.
winstonandmike
Member
Does not sound good
Just getting back into scanning after many years away. Home Patrol on order because of the ease of listening (I hope). Hope that is not a trend. Up in Southeast Maricopa County.
Just getting back into scanning after many years away. Home Patrol on order because of the ease of listening (I hope). Hope that is not a trend. Up in Southeast Maricopa County.
winstonandmike
Member
Sorry. Just saw you're in Riverside, Ca.
No, PCSO is currently on a multi-net LTR system and no scanner will properly track the system. You can plug in the 800mhz frequencies, but will pick up everything on the system not just SO traffic. When they go to phase 2 P25 there is no scanner currently out there that will be able to hear the system.
timbacchus
Newbie
Tucson P25 switch
Well the new scanners are out but of coarse cost around $500.00 but that was suspected. But it probably will take many years for Tucson to iron out all the bugs before they permanently switch to P-25 just as all other cities have.
Well the new scanners are out but of coarse cost around $500.00 but that was suspected. But it probably will take many years for Tucson to iron out all the bugs before they permanently switch to P-25 just as all other cities have.
Not correct, the PSR800 works.
Scannermaster has listed that the PSR800 will track X2-TDMA systems. Since I know next to nothing about this, I assume that X2 is the same as the phaseII that I've seen posted about here on this thread? For 445 bucks, not any more or less then I've spent on the last four scanners I own. Just not too sure how I feel about "pre-programmed" scanner.
BTW John, which agencys have opted out of the PCWIN? Just curious.
- Status
Similar threads
