pon pon and pan pan

[screenersam]

'Mayday' from the French 'M'aidez' (help me). I figured 'Securite' is related to the naval term for closing something ('chow line is secured' means 'no more chow), as in 'stop the search from the earlier pan-pan'. I hear this with reference to no longer investigating the one red flare (for example; we seem to get single flares every week where I'm at close to the Chesapeake Bay).

 

[W6KRU]

'Mayday' from the French 'M'aidez' (help me). I figured 'Securite' is related to the naval term for closing something ('chow line is secured' means 'no more chow), as in 'stop the search from the earlier pan-pan'. I hear this with reference to no longer investigating the one red flare (for example; we seem to get single flares every week where I'm at close to the Chesapeake Bay).

mayday = emergency
panpan = urgent traffic
securite = navigational hazard

 

[bejohnson]

'Mayday' from the French 'M'aidez' (help me). I figured 'Securite' is related to the naval term for closing something ('chow line is secured' means 'no more chow), as in 'stop the search from the earlier pan-pan'. I hear this with reference to no longer investigating the one red flare (for example; we seem to get single flares every week where I'm at close to the Chesapeake Bay).

Here are the three levels of priority messages in precedence order.

Mayday - Call MAYDAY repeated three times, is from the French m'aider or m'aidez and is for life threatening emergencies. A mayday situation is one in which a vessel, aircraft, vehicle, or person is in grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance.

Urgent - Call PAN-PAN repeated three times is for urgent messages that do not rise to the level of a MAYDAY call and there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel.

Safety - Call Security or Sécurité." (Pronounced Say-Cure-E-Tay) repeated three times means that an important safety information message follows. The most common use of this is by coast radio stations before the broadcast of navigational warnings and meteorological information. Any station may transmit a Safety signal.

See post #21 for the index to the Federal Communications Commission rules for the maritime radio service.

 

[rvictor]

It is amazing to me that we have now had 43 posts in this thread and the only apparent dispute is whether it is pan-pan or pon-pon.

I contend that there is no right or wrong when it comes to language. Language pronunciation changes over time and from place to place. I know people in the same family that pronounce and/or spell their family name differently.

It would seem to me that any communicator operating in good faith would respond to either pronunciation appropriately to deal with the situation. If he or she declined to do so based upon mispronunciation, then it is indeed a sad world we live in. It's all about conveying a message.

Now I think I'll take a break and have a soda (a flavored carbonated beverage for those of you in other parts of the country or in other countries).

73 (Regards)
Dick

 

[bejohnson]

It is amazing to me that we have now had 43 posts in this thread and the only apparent dispute is whether it is pan-pan or pon-pon.

I contend that there is no right or wrong when it comes to language. Language pronunciation changes over time and from place to place. I know people in the same family that pronounce and/or spell their family name differently.

It would seem to me that any communicator operating in good faith would respond to either pronunciation appropriately to deal with the situation. If he or she declined to do so based upon mispronunciation, then it is indeed a sad world we live in. It's all about conveying a message.

Now I think I'll take a break and have a soda (a flavored carbonated beverage for those of you in other parts of the country or in other countries).

73 (Regards)
Dick

Family names being proper names are open to different pronunciations. Words such as pan are not. The call PAN-PAN pronunciation is agreed upon by international convention by being based on the French word "panne" which in English, when properly pronounced, sounds like pan in frying pan. The correct pronunciation is also given as "pan" in the FCC rules.

As I pointed out above, since the call is derived from the French, "pon-pon", pronounced "pahn-pahn", in French, means spanking. A communicator that is worth his salt will strive to clearly enunciate and correctly pronounce messages clearly and accurately. That is how a message is conveyed correctly.

The pronunciation"PAN-PAN" (pronounced /ˈpæn ˈpæn/) is used because it is the closest English pronunciation to the French "panne" and English is the de facto international language of navigational (aviation and marine) communication.

 

[rvictor]

Family names being proper names are open to different pronunciations. Words such as pan are not. The call PAN-PAN pronunciation is agreed upon by international convention by being based on the French word "panne" which in English, when properly pronounced, sounds like pan in frying pan. The correct pronunciation is also given as "pan" in the FCC rules.

As I pointed out above, since the call is derived from the French, "pon-pon", pronounced "pahn-pahn", in French, means spanking. A communicator that is worth his salt will strive to clearly enunciate and correctly pronounce messages clearly and accurately. That is how a message is conveyed correctly.

The pronunciation"PAN-PAN" (pronounced /ˈpæn ˈpæn/) is used because it is the closest English pronunciation to the French "panne" and English is the de facto international language of navigational (aviation and marine) communication.

It is not just family names that are subject to varying pronunciation and evolution from time to time and place to place. I merely used that as an example. Ordinary English words are pronounced differently in different parts of the U.S. One hundred years from now many of them may be pronounced differently than we pronounce them today. Linguistics is the study of such things, among other things.

The fact that a particular word came from French doesn't mean that we necessarily still pronounce it the way that it's original form was pronounced in French. Most of our words came from some other language and we now pronounce them differently in many cases. The word "please" came originally from Latin "placere" which then became the French "plaisir" which then became the Middle English "plesen" which then became "please". Should we be pronouncing it based on the Latin? Or the French? Or the Middle English?

You seem to need to be right, but there is no right. Obviously, the Coast Guard, for example, disagrees with you and they are a significant user of these types of communications. You think they are wrong. Obviously, they think you are.

I mentioned someone receiving a signal which you ignored and changed to someone transmitting the signal. The point is that either pan-pan or pon-pon should be recognized because the intent is clear. I submit that a naval officer who instructs the sailors under his/her command to ignore pon-pon calls because they weren't being pronounced correctly is not a competent officer. If you want your sailors to say pan-pan and the Coast Guard wants its to say pon-pon, so what? The intent is clear either way and that's what matters unless we are playing games for the sake of playing games.

Let's just agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me and I doubt that I will convince you. And, fortunately, it doesn't matter either way.

Dick

 

[RKG]

Family names being proper names are open to different pronunciations. Words such as pan are not.

And what about "tomato?"

 

[bejohnson]

And what about "tomato?"

\tə-ˈmā-tō; chiefly British, NewEng, Virginia, and sometimes elsewhere in cultivated speech -ˈmä-; chiefly Northern -ˈma-\. Preferred is tə-ˈmā-tō.

 

[bejohnson]

It is not just family names that are subject to varying pronunciation and evolution from time to time and place to place. I merely used that as an example. Ordinary English words are pronounced differently in different parts of the U.S. One hundred years from now many of them may be pronounced differently than we pronounce them today. Linguistics is the study of such things, among other things.

The fact that a particular word came from French doesn't mean that we necessarily still pronounce it the way that it's original form was pronounced in French. Most of our words came from some other language and we now pronounce them differently in many cases. The word "please" came originally from Latin "placere" which then became the French "plaisir" which then became the Middle English "plesen" which then became "please". Should we be pronouncing it based on the Latin? Or the French? Or the Middle English?

You seem to need to be right, but there is no right. Obviously, the Coast Guard, for example, disagrees with you and they are a significant user of these types of communications. You think they are wrong. Obviously, they think you are.

I mentioned someone receiving a signal which you ignored and changed to someone transmitting the signal. The point is that either pan-pan or pon-pon should be recognized because the intent is clear. I submit that a naval officer who instructs the sailors under his/her command to ignore pon-pon calls because they weren't being pronounced correctly is not a competent officer. If you want your sailors to say pan-pan and the Coast Guard wants its to say pon-pon, so what? The intent is clear either way and that's what matters unless we are playing games for the sake of playing games.

Let's just agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me and I doubt that I will convince you. And, fortunately, it doesn't matter either way.

Dick

I happen to teach FCC rules & regulations interpretation and compliance to several major users of two way communications in various services and nationalities. (See below for the pertinent rule.) These include several major airlines and maritime companies. The understanding of the call in this country is not the point. The point that you are missing is when one or more parties in the area of the call are not English speaking. In the case of non-English speaking operators, international training is to use PAN-PAN. The call pronounced as PON-PON might be ignored or the response delayed because of the lack of recognizing the nature of the call due to the mispronunciation. This is why correct pronunciation is so important. International standards are established for that reason.

I could care less how you pronounce the call, just make sure that if you are out of the sphere of authority of the USCG, the USN or any English speaking nation that you use the correct pronunciation or you might just be ignored. Also using PON-PON is technically a FCC rules violation since the proper call is specified in the rules.

PART 80--STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES

Subpart G--Safety Watch Requirements and Procedures

Sec. 80.327 Urgency signals.

(a) The urgency signal indicates that the calling station has a very
urgent message to transmit concerning the safety of a ship, aircraft, or
other vehicle, or the safety of a person. The urgency signal must be
sent only on the authority of the master or person responsible for the
mobile station.

(b) In radiotelegraphy, the urgency signal consists of three
repetitions of the group XXX, sent with the individual letters of each
group, and the successive groups clearly separated from each other. It
must be transmitted before the call.

(c) In radiotelephony, the urgency signal consists of three oral
repetitions of the group of words PAN PAN transmitted before the call.

(d) The urgency signal has priority over all other communications
except distress. All mobile and land stations which hear it must not
interfere with the transmission of the message which follows the urgency
signal.

[51 FR 31213, Sept. 2, 1986, as amended at 52 FR 35245, Sept. 18, 1987]

 

[firefgtr]

Iam sorry my Innocent question 2 years ago turned into a pissing match!!

 

[DaveNF2G]

The call pronounced as PON-PON might be ignored or the response delayed because of the lack of recognizing the nature of the call due to the mispronunciation.

I call shenanigans. Regardless of pronunciation, anyone who knows what they need to know about monitoring maritime communications will recognize that a call starting PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN or PON-PON PON-PON PON-PON is not a routine communication. Nor can any of the above be mistaken for MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY or SECURITAY SECURITAY SECURITAY.

The intent of the prosign is obvious. This is mainly because ships and shore stations are staffed by sailors, not lawyers.

Also using PON-PON is technically a FCC rules violation since the proper call is specified in the rules.

Again I say, bull****. 80.327(b) does not include a pronunciation key. You are overinterpreting the regulation.

As someone else pointed out, you obviously need to be "right" even at the expense of being so pedantic as to be laughable.

 

[mdulrich]

The intent of the prosign is obvious. This is mainly because ships and shore stations are staffed by sailors, not lawyers.

or Radio Reference members.

Mike

 

[bejohnson]

I call shenanigans. Regardless of pronunciation, anyone who knows what they need to know about monitoring maritime communications will recognize that a call starting PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN or PON-PON PON-PON PON-PON is not a routine communication. Nor can any of the above be mistaken for MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY or SECURITAY SECURITAY SECURITAY.

The intent of the prosign is obvious. This is mainly because ships and shore stations are staffed by sailors, not lawyers.



Again I say, bull****. 80.327(b) does not include a pronunciation key. You are overinterpreting the regulation.

As someone else pointed out, you obviously need to be "right" even at the expense of being so pedantic as to be laughable.

The only person that seems to need to be correct is you. Your need to have your opinion validated is laughable. I base my statements on verifiable facts and 40+ years of life experience not opinion or observed incorrect practices. I hope that you don't teach your criminal justice classes using opinions and not facts. As for me needing to be right. I could care less what you believe but I will not let stand misconceptions and absolutely wrong information that I know from years of experience to be wrong. In the case of this particular subject making sure one is absolutely correct in pronunciation and procedure is imperative to life and property safety.

Have you ever operated in the international arena? I have and have monitored ignored urgent calls on several occasions. In fact I have personally handled an urgent call that occurred in the East Indian Ocean in 2006 that was ignored by the local coast station because of language problems and mispronunciation. The vessel was a U.S. registered sailing ship that experienced a storage battery explosion and the master issued the urgent call by transmitting "PON-PON not PAN-PAN. The local coast station thought it was a hoax call because of the incorrect pronunciation. The lack of a response to an urgent call is a very real possibility due to incorrect pronunciation in some parts of the world.

You are ignoring the fact that there are areas of the world that do not speak English or even understand English to any reasonable level. The area of the world that I have observed to have the most problems are areas in the South Pacific - Indian oceans that have French influence in their history and virtually no English influence. Until you can claim to be a professional maritime communications officer with international experience (NOT a ham operator) then you have no clue what you are talking about.

As for PON-PON not being a technical violation of the FCC rules, I'll let you argue that point with the commission's Enforcement Bureau. I asked the EB this question about two years ago in conjunction with developing the course work for the class that I teach in proper radio operation practices. Their response was PAN-PAN was pronounced as it is spelled. So if you cook in a frying PON I guess you are right.

As a ham you should strive to make sure that your operating practices and procedures are correct and accurate per 97.101a and 97.103a. To take the position that you have that knowingly mispronouncing a radio call that has been established by international convention and custom does not matter could be construed as a violation of those rules. This is not only my opinion but the opinion of Doug Miller, the Engineer in Charge of the FCC district office in Atlanta. I posed this question to Doug today before typing this message.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I don't need the expertise you flaunt to know that people in different parts of the world speak English and other languages with varying accents. Pronunciations will vary. It's a fact of life. Get over yourself.

As for a station declining to handle an obvious distress call because they don't like the way the caller pronounces the prowords, that person is at least negligent and is in the wrong - morally if not legally - regardless of language.

I'll allow your other self-contradiction to speak for itself:

I hope that you don't teach your criminal justice classes using opinions and not facts.

This is not only my opinion but the opinion of Doug Miller, the Engineer in Charge of the FCC district office in Atlanta.

 

[rvictor]

I don't need the expertise you flaunt to know that people in different parts of the world speak English and other languages with varying accents. Pronunciations will vary. It's a fact of life. Get over yourself.

As for a station declining to handle an obvious distress call because they don't like the way the caller pronounces the prowords, that person is at least negligent and is in the wrong - morally if not legally - regardless of language.

I'll allow your other self-contradiction to speak for itself:

I'm in total agreement on this one with Dave. Any radio operator that fails to act on a Pan-Pan Pan-Pan Pan-Pan or Pon-Pon Pon-Pon Pon-Pon should find another line of work. I wonder if bej teaches his students to ignore calls that aren't properly pronounced. Do ships in distress have to get the accent on the first syllable of Mayday in order to get a response? What if they sent a series of SMS SMS SMS? Sorry, fella, you're out of luck, your Morse code is off. You missed a dash.

And furthermore, bej keeps ignoring the fact that the USCG sees it differently than he. They might just be entitled to some legal and real world deference in the interpretation of things such as this. Or can we expect the FCC to issue them a notice of apparent liability any day now?

Dick

 

[bejohnson]

I'm in total agreement on this one with Dave. Any radio operator that fails to act on a Pan-Pan Pan-Pan Pan-Pan or Pon-Pon Pon-Pon Pon-Pon should find another line of work. I wonder if bej teaches his students to ignore calls that aren't properly pronounced. Do ships in distress have to get the accent on the first syllable of Mayday in order to get a response? What if they sent a series of SMS SMS SMS? Sorry, fella, you're out of luck, your Morse code is off. You missed a dash.

And furthermore, bej keeps ignoring the fact that the USCG sees it differently than he. They might just be entitled to some legal and real world deference in the interpretation of things such as this. Or can we expect the FCC to issue them a notice of apparent liability any day now?

Dick

I teach operators to respond to any call that they think is necessary. I also teach that while PON-PON is an incorrect call that it means PAN-PAN and should be responded to as such. This portion of the curriculum also teaches the correct pronunciation of the differing radio calls in English and the native language of the members of the particular class.

As for the FCC issuing the Coast Guard a notice of violation, The Coast Guard is considered a military organization and is not under the jurisdiction of the FCC. The FCC can issue and advisory to the OIC if an apparent violation is observed.

 

[bejohnson]

I don't need the expertise you flaunt to know that people in different parts of the world speak English and other languages with varying accents. Pronunciations will vary. It's a fact of life. Get over yourself.

As for a station declining to handle an obvious distress call because they don't like the way the caller pronounces the prowords, that person is at least negligent and is in the wrong - morally if not legally - regardless of language.

I'll allow your other self-contradiction to speak for itself:

You need to get some third world operations experience. It would open your eyes to the lack of professionalism that exist not only in communications but in all walks of life.

As for claim of self-contradiction, classes are taught with facts such as the proper pronunciation of communicator prowords are facts. The opinion of apparent violation of the letter of the part 97 rules when knowing mispronouncing a radio call in violation of good operating practice is an opinion until that apparent violation is upheld in a hearing before an administrative judge.

The only person who is full of themselves here is you.

 

[TBennettcc]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I thought I would share what I just heard on the radio.

I'm down in Cape Coral, FL. I was just listening to my scanner when I heard the Coast Guard talking about a man overboard, location/position of the boat, whether the individual had any injuries, etc., and then a few minutes later, I heard a voice say "cancel 'pawn-pawn', man overboard has been found."

This was heard on 461.612 MHz at 0047 EDT.

If that pronounciation is good enough for the USCG, then it's good enough for me.

 

[ecps92]

Who is using or Rebroadcasting VHF Marine on 461.6125 Mhz ??? in FLA ?

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I thought I would share what I just heard on the radio.

I'm down in Cape Coral, FL. I was just listening to my scanner when I heard the Coast Guard talking about a man overboard, location/position of the boat, whether the individual had any injuries, etc., and then a few minutes later, I heard a voice say "cancel 'pawn-pawn', man overboard has been found."

This was heard on 461.612 MHz at 0047 EDT.

If that pronounciation is good enough for the USCG, then it's good enough for me.

 

[MFD4305]

Today's Looney Tune

I'm down in Cape Coral, FL. I was just listening to my scanner when I heard the Coast Guard talking about a man overboard, location/position of the boat, whether the individual had any injuries, etc., and then a few minutes later, I heard a voice say "cancel 'pawn-pawn', man overboard has been found."

Maybe he was a shrimper and he actually said "Prawn - Prawn"