pon pon and pan pan

[rvictor]

As for the FCC issuing the Coast Guard a notice of violation, The Coast Guard is considered a military organization and is not under the jurisdiction of the FCC.

Yes, I know that. Learned it in law school forty years ago.

The FCC can issue and advisory to the OIC if an apparent violation is observed.

Let me know when they do.

Dick

 

[bejohnson]

Who is using or Rebroadcasting VHF Marine on 461.6125 Mhz ??? in FLA ?

461.6125 MHz is licensed to Marine Towing And Salvage Of S.W. Fl Inc. Call sign: WQHH239 PL-146.2; Address: 5828 Cape Harbour Dr. Cape Coral, Fl.; Phone: (239)945-1664; Expiration Date: 07/26/2017

The antenna is mounted on top of a building at a height of 49 meters and operates with a power of 100 watts ERP.

The frequency is part of the Industrial/Business Frequency Pool, conventional operation and is linked to Marine Radio service ch. 16.

 

[RayAir]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I thought I would share what I just heard on the radio.

I'm down in Cape Coral, FL. I was just listening to my scanner when I heard the Coast Guard talking about a man overboard, location/position of the boat, whether the individual had any injuries, etc., and then a few minutes later, I heard a voice say "cancel 'pawn-pawn', man overboard has been found."

This was heard on 461.612 MHz at 0047 EDT.

If that pronounciation is good enough for the USCG, then it's good enough for me.

It was probably from the Carnival Sensation, some loon jumped off the ship around 11pm or so, was in the water for about 2 hrs. It took the Coast Guard helicopter 1hr 45min to arrive, a few minutes before they arrived a Disney cruise ship launched a boat to get this person out of the water after they found him. The Sensation tried launching a boat, but it kept filling with water. The Disney ship had a better search light also. It was scary, we were all looking in the water and we could hear this guy occasionally screaming "HELP!" HELP", but it sounded like he was a ways out and we couldn't see him. I was on the Carnival Sensation.
http://www.examiner.com/x-9082-Walt...uise-ship-and-is-rescued-by-the-Disney-Wonder

The word I heard on the ship was that he did it after an argument with his wife.
Carnival's code for man overboard is : Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! (and then location) over the ship P.A.
The code for dead person is : Operation Bright Star (and then location), someone died on the ship earlier that day too. What a memorable cruise.

 

[bejohnson]

Yes, I know that. Learned it in law school forty years ago.



Let me know when they do.

Dick

I know of this incident from personal involvement. I identified and located the offending transmitter.

The FCC office in Atlanta issued an advisory notice to the USAF in Warner Robins, GA for continued interference with the Bibb county, GA public works department radio system in 2005. A transmitter at the base was transmitting a parasitic that was about 1 khz. above the input frequency of the department's repeater. The problem was not corrected after two advisory letters from myself and a informal notice from the Commission was issued to the communications officer at the base so a formal advisory of apparent violation was issued to the base CO with a copy sent to the CO of the 78th Air Base Wing. The problem was rectified within 2 days.

 

[bejohnson]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I thought I would share what I just heard on the radio.

I'm down in Cape Coral, FL. I was just listening to my scanner when I heard the Coast Guard talking about a man overboard, location/position of the boat, whether the individual had any injuries, etc., and then a few minutes later, I heard a voice say "cancel 'pawn-pawn', man overboard has been found."

This was heard on 461.612 MHz at 0047 EDT.

If that pronounciation is good enough for the USCG, then it's good enough for me.

Any operator with a good working knowledge of English will respond to any call that sounds remotely like a priority call. The problem is in places where the operators do not have a working knowledge of English and lack the training or professionalism of operators in this country. The problem exist in some of the remote French possessions in the South Pacific. Some of these operators are fluent in their native languages only and speak French marginally. When they are monitoring they listen for transmissions that will be probably in English formatted by international convention. When an urgent call is made these operators are listening for the word PAN. when PON is heard as in PON-PON the closest French equivalent meaning is spanking. PAN-PAN was chosen because it sounds like PANNE-PANNE which is French for break down, break down.

When others say it doesn't matter, in this country and most English speaking countries, it doesn't. In areas that are not primarily English speaking, being correct per international conventions and customs is necessary.

 

[rvictor]

I know of this incident from personal involvement. I identified and located the offending transmitter.

The FCC office in Atlanta issued an advisory notice to the USAF in Warner Robins, GA for continued interference with the Bibb county, GA public works department radio system in 2005. A transmitter at the base was transmitting a parasitic that was about 1 khz. above the input frequency of the department's repeater. The problem was not corrected after two advisory letters from myself and a informal notice from the Commission was issued to the communications officer at the base so a formal advisory of apparent violation was issued to the base CO with a copy sent to the CO of the 78th Air Base Wing. The problem was rectified within 2 days.

I don't doubt that. I was, however, referring to issuance of an advisory for mispronunciation of pan-pan/pon-pon which is what we were discussing. I have lots of interesting stories, too, but they don't relate to this thread.

Dick

 

[k6bsr]

Dippity doo dah, dippity day

I wonder if we can all agree on the pronunciation of that? How about the movie it came from?

Thanks for making sure I got the Coast Guard pronunciation right. I made it a point to inform the brass at Station Cape Disappointment and while I was over there I also let them know at the National Motor Lifeboat School. I know the Contingency Officer at Air Station Astoria personally, so rest assured he has been informed... For some strange reason they insist on doing it the wrong way still. maybe I can involve INTERPOL or the KGB?

 

[TBennettcc]

Any operator with a good working knowledge of English will respond to any call that sounds remotely like a priority call. The problem is in places where the operators do not have a working knowledge of English and lack the training or professionalism of operators in this country. The problem exist in some of the remote French possessions in the South Pacific. Some of these operators are fluent in their native languages only and speak French marginally. When they are monitoring they listen for transmissions that will be probably in English formatted by international convention. When an urgent call is made these operators are listening for the word PAN. when PON is heard as in PON-PON the closest French equivalent meaning is spanking. PAN-PAN was chosen because it sounds like PANNE-PANNE which is French for break down, break down.

When others say it doesn't matter, in this country and most English speaking countries, it doesn't. In areas that are not primarily English speaking, being correct per international conventions and customs is necessary.

Hmm. Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Again, not trying to start anything, just wondering: Do you or anyone else have any first-hand knowledge of a pon-pon call in so-called 'international conditions' where it was ignored due to being mispronounced?

 

[bejohnson]

Hmm. Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Again, not trying to start anything, just wondering: Do you or anyone else have any first-hand knowledge of a pon-pon call in so-called 'international conditions' where it was ignored due to being mispronounced?

Follow this link
.

 

[ocguard]

It's worth noting that the Coast Guard station in receipt of a "Mayday" message will generally repeat the information regarding the "Mayday" by means of a "Pan Pan." Only the station in immediate danger should transmit a "Mayday" with the exception of a nearby station transmitting a "Mayday" on the distressed station's behalf because of their inability to do so. In other words, if you are witnessing another vessel sinking or on fire where lives are in peril, you should transmit your report as a mayday.

Examples:

1.[Your vessel is taking on water in open seas, persons on board in peril of death]

You transmit: "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, this is fishing vessel MARLIN, fishing vessel MARLIN, fishing vessel MARLIN, our location is {give as exact location as possible three times}, we are taking on water quickly and going down by the bow, have 5 souls on board, in need of immediate assistance and rescue, OVER."

The Coast Guard will answer the MAYDAY call and interrogate the captain for needed information such as vessel size and description, etc. Once the Coast Guard has the needed information, they will dispatch the appropriate resources and will retransmit, on VHF Channel 16, a distress message...

USCG: "PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN, hello all stations, this is United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector, United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector, urgent marine information broadcast, Sector North Carolina has received a report that the 34' fishing vessel "MARLIN" is taking on water and going down by the bow, MARLIN's location is {give location}, MARLIN is white and blue in color, with 5 souls on board. All stations are requested to keep a sharp lookout, render assistance if possible, and report all sighting to the nearest Coast Guard unit. This is United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector, OUT."

{Vessel is reached, pumped out, passengers loaded onto another vessel, and disabled vessel is towed to port}

USCG: "Hello all stations, hello all stations, this is United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector, fishing vessel MARLIN has been located, passengers safely removed, vessel is under tow to port. Cancel PAN PAN, United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector OUT."

2. [Strong storms are about to affect a significant maritime area]

USCG: "SECUTIRE, SECURITE, SECURITE, hello all stations, this is United States Coast Guard Group Eastern Shore, United States Coast Guard Group Eastern Shore, unscheduled marine informational broadcast regarding weather, interested station shift and monitor channel two-three alpha, one five seven decimal one five megahertz, Group Eastern Shore OUT."

The Coast Guard would then transmit a SECURITE followed by the weather bulletin on Channel 23A. The purpose is to keep Channel 16 clear for emergency traffic.

 

[k6bsr]

Finally

Thanks to OCguard for the play by play. That is exactly how I have heard things go down EVERY TIME. We only had about Four "PON PON's" this last weekend here at the mouth of the Columbia river. One was a fishing vessel fully engulfed in flames with crew abandoning into a life raft. One was a man overboard hoax and two more were surfers in distress. EACH and EVERY time it went down EXACTLY the same. Just don't tell the landlubbers that....

 

[bejohnson]

It's worth noting that the Coast Guard station in receipt of a "Mayday" message will generally repeat the information regarding the "Mayday" by means of a "Pan Pan." Only the station in immediate danger should transmit a "Mayday" with the exception of a nearby station transmitting a "Mayday" on the distressed station's behalf because of their inability to do so. In other words, if you are witnessing another vessel sinking or on fire where lives are in peril, you should transmit your report as a mayday.

Examples:

1.[Your vessel is taking on water in open seas, persons on board in peril of death]

You transmit: "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, this is fishing vessel MARLIN, fishing vessel MARLIN, fishing vessel MARLIN, our location is {give as exact location as possible three times}, we are taking on water quickly and going down by the bow, have 5 souls on board, in need of immediate assistance and rescue, OVER."

The Coast Guard will answer the MAYDAY call and interrogate the captain for needed information such as vessel size and description, etc. Once the Coast Guard has the needed information, they will dispatch the appropriate resources and will retransmit, on VHF Channel 16, a distress message...

USCG: "PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN, hello all stations, this is United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector, United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector, urgent marine information broadcast, Sector North Carolina has received a report that the 34' fishing vessel "MARLIN" is taking on water and going down by the bow, MARLIN's location is {give location}, MARLIN is white and blue in color, with 5 souls on board. All stations are requested to keep a sharp lookout, render assistance if possible, and report all sighting to the nearest Coast Guard unit. This is United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector, OUT."

{Vessel is reached, pumped out, passengers loaded onto another vessel, and disabled vessel is towed to port}

USCG: "Hello all stations, hello all stations, this is United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector, fishing vessel MARLIN has been located, passengers safely removed, vessel is under tow to port. Cancel PAN PAN, United States Coast Guard North Carolina Sector OUT."

2. [Strong storms are about to affect a significant maritime area]

USCG: "SECUTIRE, SECURITE, SECURITE, hello all stations, this is United States Coast Guard Group Eastern Shore, United States Coast Guard Group Eastern Shore, unscheduled marine informational broadcast regarding weather, interested station shift and monitor channel two-three alpha, one five seven decimal one five megahertz, Group Eastern Shore OUT."

The Coast Guard would then transmit a SECURITE followed by the weather bulletin on Channel 23A. The purpose is to keep Channel 16 clear for emergency traffic.

You are dead on with the procedural information for acknowledging a MAYDAY.

A MAYDAY can be rebroadcast by a ship or station that is not itself in danger under the following rule.

PART 80--STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES

Subpart G--Safety Watch Requirements and Procedures

Sec. 80.324 Transmission of distress message by station not itself in distress.

(a) A mobile station or a land station which learns that a mobile
station is in distress must transmit a distress message in any of the
following cases:
(1) When the station in distress cannot transmit the distress
message.
(2) When the master or person responsible for the ship, aircraft, or
other vehicle not in distress, or for the land station, believes that
further help is necessary.
(3) When, although not in a position to assist, it has heard a
distress message which has not been acknowledged. When a mobile station
transmits such a distress message, it must notify the authorities who
may be able to assist.
(b) Transmission must be made on the international distress
frequencies or on any other available frequency on which attention might
be attracted.
(c) Transmission of the distress message must always be preceded by
the call indicated below, which must itself be preceded whenever
possible by the radiotelegraph or radiotelephone alarm signal. This call
consists of:
(1) When radiotelegraphy is used:
(i) The signal DDD SOS SOS SOS DDD:
(ii) The word DE;
(iii) The call sign of the transmitting station, sent three times.
(2) When radiotelephony is used:
(i) The signal MAYDAY RELAY, spoken three times;
(ii) The words THIS IS;
(iii) The call sign or other identification of the transmitting
station, spoken three times.
(d) When the radiotelegraph alarm signal is used, an interval of two
minutes must be allowed, whenever this is considered necessary, before
the transmission of the call mentioned in paragraph (c)(1) of this
section.

 

[Net-5]

Interesting thread going here.

I witnessed a MAYDAY situation not very long ago. Here is my question:

At the beginning of the incident, there was trouble (it looked like the kayakers would need assistance to get safely back to shore). However the situation had not become life-threatening yet, but there was some urgency to it. Would it have been appropriate to call the Coast Guard using PAN-PAN to advise? I have never heard anyone other than the Coast Guard use the term PAN-PAN, just want to be 100% sure that a vessel can use PAN-PAN, too.

A little later, things really went to hell and it became life-threatening, and then it became a MAYDAY situation. So I understand that part.

If a Coastie or somebody else with direct training and/or experience in these sorts of events could help answer this question, I would appreciate it. The time to get clear on what to say and do is before an emergency takes place, not during or after.

VHF marine radio users are not required to be licensed, and the information that comes from the manufacturers with the radios offers only the most basic of details regarding these procedures... so, thanks for your help with this.

 

[ocguard]

Interesting thread going here.

I witnessed a MAYDAY situation not very long ago. Here is my question:

At the beginning of the incident, there was trouble (it looked like the kayakers would need assistance to get safely back to shore). However the situation had not become life-threatening yet, but there was some urgency to it. Would it have been appropriate to call the Coast Guard using PAN-PAN to advise? I have never heard anyone other than the Coast Guard use the term PAN-PAN, just want to be 100% sure that a vessel can use PAN-PAN, too.

A little later, things really went to hell and it became life-threatening, and then it became a MAYDAY situation. So I understand that part.

If a Coastie or somebody else with direct training and/or experience in these sorts of events could help answer this question, I would appreciate it. The time to get clear on what to say and do is before an emergency takes place, not during or after.

VHF marine radio users are not required to be licensed, and the information that comes from the manufacturers with the radios offers only the most basic of details regarding these procedures... so, thanks for your help with this.

It is acceptable for a station (shore or vessel) other than a coast guard station or unit to transmit a Pan Pan message to indicate that a person or a vessel is in jeopardy. Those who watch Deadliest Catch may have seen a fishing vessel Captain transmit a Pan Pan when hit boat became disabled ("dead in the water") in a busy boating channel.

 

[Net-5]

It is acceptable for a station (shore or vessel) other than a coast guard station or unit to transmit a Pan Pan message to indicate that a person or a vessel is in jeopardy. Those who watch Deadliest Catch may have seen a fishing vessel Captain transmit a Pan Pan when hit boat became disabled ("dead in the water") in a busy boating channel.

Sounds good to me then. Thanks!

 

[RKG]

Interesting thread going here.

I witnessed a MAYDAY situation not very long ago. Here is my question:

At the beginning of the incident, there was trouble (it looked like the kayakers would need assistance to get safely back to shore). However the situation had not become life-threatening yet, but there was some urgency to it. Would it have been appropriate to call the Coast Guard using PAN-PAN to advise?

While use of the PAN-PAN signal is not limited to USCG (regulations quoted previously), if you initiated a broadcast addressed specifically to a Coast Guard facility, use of the signal would be inappropriate. PAN-PAN precedes a broadcast address to "all stations."

Which is not to say that it would make any difference; this entire thread borders a angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin discussion. But technically . . . .

 

[Net-5]

Which is not to say that it would make any difference; this entire thread borders a angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin discussion. But technically . . . .

If I'm calling the CG and it is not a Mayday (yet), maybe the best course would be to simply transmit in clear, plain language and hope that they understand it... meanwhile, I'll call our local CG Group and see what they say. That might be the best solution of them all, for my situation as a boater.

 

[N_Jay]

These calls were set up a LONG time ago, and are principally intended for radio services where you are not assured that those listening are fluent in the same language; SW (pre definition of various services), marine, amateur, and aeronautical.

Other than May-Day, for an English speaking user calling a US based station (not making a general broadcast) plain language is probably best.

As for Pon-Pon vs. Pan-Pan, it is like the difference between 'kwi-bek', 'kay-bek', and 'ki-bek'.
Unless you are an idiot, you will understand what is being said. (some here excepted explicitly)

 

[bejohnson]

While use of the PAN-PAN signal is not limited to USCG (regulations quoted previously), if you initiated a broadcast addressed specifically to a Coast Guard facility, use of the signal would be inappropriate. PAN-PAN precedes a broadcast address to "all stations."

Which is not to say that it would make any difference; this entire thread borders a angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin discussion. But technically . . . .

The correct usage is "Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan", followed by the intended recipient of the message, either "All Stations, All Stations, All Stations" or a specific station, "Kodiak Coast Guard Radio, Kodiak Coast Guard Radio, Kodiak Coast Guard Radio", the identification of the craft, its position, the nature of the problem and the type of assistance or advice required, if any.

PART 80--STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES

Subpart G--Safety Watch Requirements and Procedures

Sec. 80.327 Urgency signals.

(a) The urgency signal indicates that the calling station has a very
urgent message to transmit concerning the safety of a ship, aircraft, or
other vehicle, or the safety of a person. The urgency signal must be
sent only on the authority of the master or person responsible for the
mobile station.
(b) In radiotelegraphy, the urgency signal consists of three
repetitions of the group XXX, sent with the individual letters of each
group, and the successive groups clearly separated from each other. It
must be transmitted before the call.
(c) In radiotelephony, the urgency signal consists of three oral
repetitions of the group of words PAN PAN transmitted before the call.
(d) The urgency signal has priority over all other communications
except distress. All mobile and land stations which hear it must not
interfere with the transmission of the message which follows the urgency
signal.

[51 FR 31213, Sept. 2, 1986, as amended at 52 FR 35245, Sept. 18, 1987]



PART 80--STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES

Subpart W--Global Maritime Distress and Safety System (GMDSS)

Sec. 80.1131 Transmissions of urgency communications.

(a) In a terrestrial system the announcement of the urgency message
must be made on one or more of the distress and safety calling
frequencies specified in Sec. 80.1077 using digital selective calling
and the urgency call format. A separate announcement need not be made if
the urgency message is to be transmitted through the maritime mobile-
satellite service.
(b) The urgency signal and message must be transmitted on one or
more of the distress and safety traffic frequencies specified in
Sec. 80.1077, or via the maritime mobile-satellite service or on other
frequencies used for this purpose.
(c) The urgency signal consists of the words PAN PAN. In
radiotelephony each word of the group must be pronounced as the French
word ``panne''.
(d) The urgency call format and the urgency signal indicate that the
calling station has a very urgent message to transmit concerning the
safety of a mobile unit or a person.
(e) In radiotelephony, the urgency message must be preceded by the
urgency signal, repeated three times, and the identification of the
transmitting station.
(f) In narrow-band direct-printing, the urgency message must be
preceded by the urgency signal and the identification of the
transmitting station.
(g) The urgency call format or urgency signal must be sent only on
the authority of the master or the person responsible for the mobile
unit carrying the mobile station or mobile earth station.
(h) The urgency call format or the urgency signal may be transmitted
by a land station or a coast earth station with the approval of the
responsible authority.
(i) When an urgency message which calls for action by the stations
receiving the message has been transmitted, the station responsible for
its transmission must cancel it as soon as it knows that action is no
longer necessary.
(j) Error correction techniques, in accordance with CCIR
Recommendation 625 as specified in Sec. 80.1101, must be used for
urgency messages by direct-printing telegraphy. All messages must be
preceded by at least one carriage return, a line feed signal, a letter
shift signal and the urgency signal PAN PAN.
(k) Urgency communications by direct-printing telegraphy should be
in the ARQ mode when communicating directly to the Coast Guard or other
coast stations on channels which they normally guard. Other distress
communications, including those on simplex channels provided for that
purpose, should be in the broadcast forward error correction mode. The
ARQ mode may subsequently be used when it is advantageous to do so.

Also everyone please note that 80.1131(c) plainly states that PAN-PAN MUST be pronounced like the French word "panne". I have previously posted several examples of the correct pronunciation of "panne". Maybe now certain folks here will cease backing the USCG.

BTW I have had a discussion with CG-6 C4&IT and the Assistant Commandant for C4&IT Rear Admiral Robert E. Day concerning this matter.

Barney E. Johnson
SES officer Level One
WHMO USDOD (retired)

 

[ocguard]

Also everyone please note that 80.1131(c) plainly states that PAN-PAN MUST be pronounced like the French word "panne". I have previously posted several examples of the correct pronunciation of "panne". Maybe now certain folks here will cease backing the USCG.

BTW I have had a discussion with CG-6 C4&IT and the Assistant Commandant for C4&IT Rear Admiral Robert E. Day concerning this matter.

Barney E. Johnson
SES officer Level One
WHMO USDOD (retired)

If you don't pronounce it correctly, your request for assistance will be IGNORED! Spread the word. I'll be sure to inform the CG groups close to where I live and vacation, just so they know. Haha. Let's get a lock on this thread while it's still full of MOSTLY useful information.