Problems with Simulcast

[dancrosoft]

Why didn't you return it? Or sell it now?

I cannot sell it until I have a better replacement. One must have a general scanner around. The G5 is basically a stop gap until something that works better on P25 comes out....

I wont however purchase any of the new ones until there are reports of perf as good or better than a G5. Other wise, it will be a waste of money again.

 

[markjrenna]

While true. It does not lack the ability to clearly listen to Phase 1 and Phase 2 transmissions with a very nice display. Until Whistler and Uniden come out with their LSM capable scanner, the Unication G4 or G5 is what really works today.

While the G4/G5 may be good at decoding P25 simulcast systems, they're seriously lacking features/capabilities when compared to scanners.

 

[dancrosoft]

While true. It does not lack the ability to clearly listen to Phase 1 and Phase 2 transmissions with a very nice display. Until Whistler and Uniden come out with their LSM capable scanner, the Unication G4 or G5 is what really works today.

Well said Nothing more important than clear audio, G5 delivers. All other features are moot if that doesn't exist...

 

[I_am_Alpha1]

And really not a good idea for a novice.

So a new technician should not program their own radio because they are a novice? Teenagers shouldn't get to drive a car because they are a novice? Scores are killed in car accidents every year...never heard of someone getting so much as a scratch from programming a radio incorrectly. There is a deep sense of pride and accomplishment that comes with completing a task like non-affiliated scanning. While more difficult than chirp, it can be done by a novice...read, read, and read more. Connect the radio to a dummy load to ensure it can't affiliate until you are 100% sure you have it right...just to be extra safe as a novice (that should take care of the comment about if you affiliate you could get a cop hurt). Scanning and amateur radio would have died off many years ago if users didn't experiment.

We should be helping and encouraging others to learn new skills and expand their knowledge base as others have done for us--unfortunately that doesn't always happen on RR. I've tested all the new scanners out and found the XTS5000 sounds better...and the XTL5000 is better yet. They never miss a call...even on the toughest simulcast systems.

 

[radio3353]

While true. It does not lack the ability to clearly listen to Phase 1 and Phase 2 transmissions with a very nice display. Until Whistler and Uniden come out with their LSM capable scanner, the Unication G4 or G5 is what really works today.

Exactly I wish more people would realize that. Apologies to mule1075 :lol:

 

[djeplett]

So a new technician should not program their own radio because they are a novice? Teenagers shouldn't get to drive a car because they are a novice? Scores are killed in car accidents every year...never heard of someone getting so much as a scratch from programming a radio incorrectly. There is a deep sense of pride and accomplishment that comes with completing a task like non-affiliated scanning. While more difficult than chirp, it can be done by a novice...read, read, and read more. Connect the radio to a dummy load to ensure it can't affiliate until you are 100% sure you have it right...just to be extra safe as a novice (that should take care of the comment about if you affiliate you could get a cop hurt). Scanning and amateur radio would have died off many years ago if users didn't experiment.

We should be helping and encouraging others to learn new skills and expand their knowledge base as others have done for us--unfortunately that doesn't always happen on RR. I've tested all the new scanners out and found the XTS5000 sounds better...and the XTL5000 is better yet. They never miss a call...even on the toughest simulcast systems.

I would be careful encouraging just anyone to try to learn how to program a commercial grade radio for no affiliate scanning. Some people have no business trying unless they are willing to put in the time required to learn how to correctly do it. The stakes are a bit high.

I think mule's quote is spot-on. Novices should leave it alone. There's a reason why the edge of the map is labeled: HERE THERE BE DRAGONS.

Not saying only geniuses can do it. Far from that. If I learned how to do it anybody can. But it takes a good amount of honest learning. I think that's what mule was insinuating.

 

[jonwienke]

So a new technician should not program their own radio because they are a novice? Teenagers shouldn't get to drive a car because they are a novice? Scores are killed in car accidents every year...never heard of someone getting so much as a scratch from programming a radio incorrectly.

You will brick the radio if you don't program non-affiliate scan exactly right. The system will detect an unauthorized radio on the net and send it a kill command. You won't die, but your radio will.

 

[Ubbe]

No system are able to automaticly send kill commands, it's done manually and usually only by the system administrator. A radio are not allowed to affiliate at all with the system without the correct credentials and the system administrator must check the warning logs to spot the intrusion attempt. Use a known radio ID in the system and if the transmit LED do light up at some point, due to bad programming, you should change to another ID to avoid being killed.

/Ubbe

 

[kmartin]

i use this on my RS pro 197 and whistler TRX-1 i realize that this might not work for everyone
but it might help in some situations have not tried this with mobile because i have no problems
while driving around. my problems are in my condo yes i am aware it could be interference
could be many things but now i receive Galveston P25 simulcast at 99% signal strength and
i seem to be getting all of the conversation

 

[dancrosoft]

i use this on my RS pro 197 and whistler TRX-1 i realize that this might not work for everyone
but it might help in some situations have not tried this with mobile because i have no problems
while driving around. my problems are in my condo yes i am aware it could be interference
could be many things but now i receive Galveston P25 simulcast at 99% signal strength and
i seem to be getting all of the conversation

This? How did you get your TRX-1 to pick up Simulcast well? Please tell me!!

(nvm I found your other post.) I really wish that manufactures would just design their scanners to perform as advertised. It is sad that we would have to perform antenna joo joo to compensate for crappy engineering.

 

[jonwienke]

Its not crappy engineering, its using a scanner for something it was never designed to do in the first place. If you are having trouble eating soup with a fork, it's not because the fork is the result of crappy engineering, it's because you're using it for something it wasn't designed to do. Show me one place where the manufacturer of any currently available scanner claimed that model was intended to handle simulcast.

 

[iMONITOR]

Show me one place where the manufacturer of any currently available scanner claimed that model was intended to handle simulcast.

Sure got quiet all of a sudden.

 

[dancrosoft]

Its not crappy engineering, its using a scanner for something it was never designed to do in the first place. If you are having trouble eating soup with a fork, it's not because the fork is the result of crappy engineering, it's because you're using it for something it wasn't designed to do. Show me one place where the manufacturer of any currently available scanner claimed that model was intended to handle simulcast.

Then they should have not answered yes to my pre purchase question of "does this scanner support all P25 systems...." Most people see P25 and assume it will just work. They need to put a line in the literature saying it does not work or at least that it doesn't work well.

So if it is not engineering, then it is devious marketing.

 

[jonwienke]

Who answered the question? Did you specify your local system was simulcast when you asked?

And even though they are not specifically designed to do so, current scanners will receive most traffic from most simulcast systems under most conditions. Many people are able to receive simulcast systems with little or no trouble because of their location relative to the transmitter towers. Simulcast reception trouble is location-dependent, just like signal overload and interference from cell and pager towers. So you could make a fairly logical argument that the manufacturers aren't being deceptive when they don't specifically caveat simulcast reception interference, the same way they don't caveat reception issues due to overload or other types of interference. Nobody can guarantee that a radio is going to receive signals from a particular transmitter from a particular location with a particular antenna unless they take the radio there and try it. There's too many variables for the manufacturers to try to do any such thing.

 

[dancrosoft]

Who answered the question? Did you specify your local system was simulcast when you asked?

And even though they are not specifically designed to do so, current scanners will receive most traffic from most simulcast systems under most conditions. Many people are able to receive simulcast systems with little or no trouble because of their location relative to the transmitter towers. Simulcast reception trouble is location-dependent, just like signal overload and interference from cell and pager towers. So you could make a fairly logical argument that the manufacturers aren't being deceptive when they don't specifically caveat simulcast reception interference, the same way they don't caveat reception issues due to overload or other types of interference. Nobody can guarantee that a radio is going to receive signals from a particular transmitter from a particular location with a particular antenna unless they take the radio there and try it. There's too many variables for the manufacturers to try to do any such thing.

For $400+, if its says P25 phase 1 and 2. It should just work. Period.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Who answered the question? Did you specify your local system was simulcast when you asked?

And even though they are not specifically designed to do so, current scanners will receive most traffic from most simulcast systems under most conditions. Many people are able to receive simulcast systems with little or no trouble because of their location relative to the transmitter towers. Simulcast reception trouble is location-dependent, just like signal overload and interference from cell and pager towers. So you could make a fairly logical argument that the manufacturers aren't being deceptive when they don't specifically caveat simulcast reception interference, the same way they don't caveat reception issues due to overload or other types of interference. Nobody can guarantee that a radio is going to receive signals from a particular transmitter from a particular location with a particular antenna unless they take the radio there and try it. There's too many variables for the manufacturers to try to do any such thing.

I'm going to play devils advocate here. CQPSK is part of the P25 spec. And by saying a scanner supports all P25 systems...that would in fact imply that the scanner is capable of handling CQPSK appropriately. It's like saying the Baofeng DM-5R was a DMR Tier II radio when it could only support Time Slot 1 and often bled over to Time Slot 2.

Granted, there was also plenty of postings showing poor simulcast reception with nearly all marketed scanners. By the way, I do have a GRE Scanner which claims to support simulcast but this scanner was a commercial tool built back in the 1990's for system monitoring.

 

[jonwienke]

I'm going to play devils advocate here. CQPSK is part of the P25 spec. And by saying a scanner supports all P25 systems...that would in fact imply that the scanner is capable of handling CQPSK appropriately. It's like saying the Baofeng DM-5R was a DMR Tier II radio when it could only support Time Slot 1 and often bled over to Time Slot 2.

No, because the Baofeng's claim to tier II compliance was completely false--it transmits on both timeslots 100% of the time, regardless of how it's programed. That doesn't even comply with tier I.

Simulcast is not specific to P25 Phase II. That may be the most common context at the moment, but analog systems can be simulcast as well. Most scanners will receive simulcast, they just have more and larger reception "dead spots" than a radio designed specifically to handle simulcast. If the scanner works in ~70% of a system's coverage area, it's not a lie to say that the scanner supports that system type, even if performance is obviously less than ideal. And again, no scanner manufacturer made specific claims about simulcast performance prior to the SDS100 and TRX-100/200.

 

[bob550]

For $400+, if its says P25 phase 1 and 2. It should just work. Period.

If you really want a scanner to "just work" under any and all circumstances, you're going to have to add another zero to your $400 price tag. Even then, no manufacturer can make any performance guarantees. If they did, you'd have someone complaining that they couldn't receive some PD from 45 miles away on their handheld scanner with a rubber duck antenna, while in their basement apartment.

 

[milcom_chaser]

This? How did you get your TRX-1 to pick up Simulcast well? Please tell me!!

(nvm I found your other post.) I really wish that manufactures would just design their scanners to perform as advertised. It is sad that we would have to perform antenna joo joo to compensate for crappy engineering.

"It is sad that we would have to perform antenna joo joo to compensate for crappy engineering."

Wouldn't call it crappy engineering. LSM is a modulation scheme that was released post hardware design in the current line of Whistler products... Uniden has addressed this issue now with the soon to be released SDS-100, and Whistler to follow suit by the end of the year...

 

[rayvelcoro]

would you post a diagram or a pic of this "paint can" thing. I've seen it referenced more than once. Thanks.

Ray