PSR-500 and PSR-600 Pre Release

[windigofer]

I don't know how I'd name them. Step 1 is getting the required info. If I can get that, I'll certainly write something. I somehow doubt that it will be as simple as Win93.

OK, programming-geek hat on :3

Just out of curiosity, how *does* one get the relevant info (re format used, etc.) to write programming software? Does GRE normally work with programmers in providing the data format used (in exchange for signing NDAs), etc.?

(Yes, I have reasons of personal curiosity for this. I know that one of the pretty much insurmountable stumbling blocks with developing programming software for the Pro-95 on up has been that the data stream from the radio was encrypted (it was plaintext with the Pro-92, hence much easier to reverse-engineer and there are actually open software and freeware Pro-92 programs, whereas ScanCat and the WinXX family of programs are pretty much it as far as the Pro-95 on up goes. I was also under the understanding (and please let me know if I am mistaken on this!) that GRE had shared technical data with you in regards to creating Win96 (in particular with undocumented features).

(One thing I'd *really* like to see with this particular radio is software development--with PRO96COM we got to see more hobbyist software, and with the PSR500 supposedly having an open data stream for all of its trunktracking capabilities (no discriminator tap needed!) there are all sorts of wonderful chances opening up--for example, a possible fork of the Unitrunker code, an enhanced version of Trunker using the data interface (this is in fact one I may be looking at myself!), etc. The one thing the PSR-500 may lack (along with most non-Pro-92/Pro-2067 GRE kit) are non-Windows options for actually programming the frequencies in to begin with--and that's mostly because none of the authors who would be targeting Linux or MacOS X (or cross-OS tools like TK92) have the necessary info from GRE as to how to properly decrypt the data stream (for programming) on the new kit.

(One thing I'd *really* love to see is a Linux-native app to program the PSR-500 (and once it's done in Linux, it should be trivial to port elsewhere--yay GCC and cross-compiling the necessary libraries for each OS). Another thing that exists in the Uniden world, but not so far in the GRE world, is a way to program the scanner via a handheld device like a Windows Mobile PC with a serial-to-mobile adapter (yes, we have the technology now and the GCC libraries to create WM2003+ apps, we just need to know how the data stream works) or even (depending on how much the PSR-500 is computer-controllable in practice) limited computer control such as exists with some PalmOS and Windows Mobile tools to control Uniden scanners. Seeing as the newer Windows Mobile kit outpowers the Windows 98 boxen of even a few years ago, it's quite doable.

(If we could figure out what GRE requires of developers to provide the necessary information (i.e. does GRE charge fees, do they ask for NDAs, do they provide info only to people with a history of prior GRE development, etc.) we know from there just how feasible a lot of this "pie in the sky" stuff is.)

 

[DaveIN]

Then again, the Dayton radio was a mockup, too--the internals were all PSR-500, but reportedly the externals were from a Pro-97 (among other things, in the final version the LCD location is going to be moved).

Curious, did you read that the PRO-97 was used for the working prototype somewhere, or just that it was the size of the PRO-97 chassis?

 

[mikey60]

(If we could figure out what GRE requires of developers to provide the necessary information (i.e. does GRE charge fees, do they ask for NDAs, do they provide info only to people with a history of prior GRE development, etc.) we know from there just how feasible a lot of this "pie in the sky" stuff is.)

I'd like to know that as well. Writing Pro96Com was a good experience for me, and if I can ever afford one of these radios I'd be up for programming in the other protocols as well once I get them figured out.

I would hope that GRE could follow some cues from Uniden as far as control and programming methods. With the VScanner memories in play, I don't forsee that being the case. I expect that it would be an image file style similar to the type used for the Pro-96/2096.

Mike

 

[windigofer]

Curious, did you read that the PRO-97 was used for the working prototype somewhere, or just that it was the size of the PRO-97 chassis?

In the original thread in regards to the announcement of the scanners, someone had mentioned (due to the differences in the PDF and flyers distributed at Dayton and the "working model" at Dayton) that a Pro-97 chassis was being used (specifically, someone had mentioned they saw evidence of Radio Shack branding and an attendee--cpunut, I think--had mentioned the use of a Pro-97 chassis for the mockup).

 

[gmclam]

I would like to see a comm protocol to/from the scanner than it published. Does GRE think they are going to sell more scanners by keeping it a secret? I would think that an open protocol would cause a heckuva lot of people to write apps for their scanner, which in turn would sell more scanners.

 

[windigofer]

I would like to see a comm protocol to/from the scanner than it published. Does GRE think they are going to sell more scanners by keeping it a secret? I would think that an open protocol would cause a heckuva lot of people to write apps for their scanner, which in turn would sell more scanners.

Yup--in fact, this is *precisely* my point (if the protocol were published, there'd be a lot more development of apps for the scanner--look at how many different programs exist for the Pro-92 (payware, freeware, *and* open source) compared with the Pro-96, for example. Look at all the apps available for Uniden kit. (As it is, anyone who doesn't want to use Windows and has a later-gen GRE kit pretty much is forced to either use a Windows-system-call-translator program (like Wine or Parallels--and I can vouch that occasionally Win96 doesn't work gracefully in Wine) or keep a dedicated Windows partition just for radio programming.)

If (for example) the comm protocol were published, Linux-based and multi-OS tools suddenly become a possibility (and the 20-mule-team power of Linux and MacOS X developers at that, much less the guy running Windows and Visual Studio). Drivers for the USB-to-serial board used in the USB cable exist for Linux and Mac; if the data interface is documented, it's a short step to making a functional programming software from there (you could theoretically build on TK92, which is open source, or build your own using any number of toolkits or hands-on coding).

 

[DaveIN]

Open source programs are great, however they never seem to have all the features or are cumbersome to use. Don S. has a standard that works well for all the previous GRE models. The new GRECOM radios will need more detail for the full duplex operation and Object orented dynamic memory functions. Not something for the general programmers, IMHO. We need someone with a background in GRE radios that have worked with this type of protocol before.

I would also like to see a program that will take advantage of the discriminator output, this has been mentioned to be from the same port and in a simple ASCII output and work with all trunked types. Hopefully Mike can adapt his excellent PRO96COM program to work with the output streem or Rick can integrate it into the UniTrunker program. This would be an excellent tool to identify unknown trunk systems for database entry into Radioreference.

 

[DaveNF2G]

One more vote for larger radio chassis here. My reason is sound. Small radio = small speaker = tinny audio that is not very loud.

 

[windigofer]

Open source programs are great, however they never seem to have all the features or are cumbersome to use. Don S. has a standard that works well for all the previous GRE models. The new GRECOM radios will need more detail for the full duplex operation and Object orented dynamic memory functions. Not something for the general programmers, IMHO. We need someone with a background in GRE radios that have worked with this type of protocol before.

The question is, though, what if:

a) Don decides he no longer has time to work on programs for GRE kit (leaving us, at this point, only BuTel as a possibility for the PSR-500 and ScanCat (blech) for older GRE kit)?
b) you want something *not requiring Windows* (this is going to be a bigger deal in times to come, because--frankly--Windows Vista is a guilded cowpie, and I know many people who have stated that when "end of life" comes for Windows XP that they may go to an alternative, non-Microsoft OS)?

Yes, some open-source stuff does tend to be lacking. Some is comparable to commercial software, though (The Gimp and some of the fontography and layout programs for Linux come to mind)--and then there's Firefox, which has been a class-act browser for some time. It depends largely on the crew you have working on things--the main advantage of open-source is that other people can work on things and improve them (or, if the original author no longer has time to work on things, the development of the program can continue).

I myself am a huge fan of Don's software. I'm just someone who also tends to hate monoculture in anything (whether it be scanners, scanner software, platforms, etc.). I also realise that there may come a day that Don isn't able to work on writing a new software package (he's only human and only one person, after all) and would like there to be a way that someone can take up the old flag, so to speak, if Don would rather spend more time with his family in future than coding programs for us

As an aside, I'm not even saying it has to be open-source; depending on GRE's own requirements for incorporating the data stream decrypting, this might not even be possible--yes, there is closed-source stuff in the Linux world, even closed-source *drivers* (ask anyone who has a Conexant dial-up modem under Linux ). I'd be happy with multiple closed-source tools (with different featuresets) all competing with each other :3 (Again, this is my "hatred of monoculture" speaking. Same reason why I'm very happy that Uniden and GRE are in a sort of "space race" for features on their scanners; competition is a Good Thing.)

Then again, this discussion may better fit on another forum. Just my own two pence on things.

I would also like to see a program that will take advantage of the discriminator output, this has been mentioned to be from the same port and in a simple ASCII output and work with all trunked types. Hopefully Mike can adapt his excellent PRO96COM program to work with the output streem or Rick can integrate it into the UniTrunker program. This would be an excellent tool to identify unknown trunk systems for database entry into Radioreference.

Oh, definitely agreed there :3 As the data stream for trunking traffic (unlike that for sending V-scanner or scanner bank data) is cleartext, writing essentially an extension to Unitrunker et al should be trivial. (I myself am looking a bit more at porting the necessary tools to one of the Trunker derivatives, because Unitrunker still has some issues with Type IIi systems (and one of the big systems locally IS Type IIi), but honestly once Unitrunker fixes that issue and incorporates LTR the *Trunker programs will be moribund. Again, though, this is an area I'm glad to see competition in; Unitrunker has some very good strengths especially with APCO-25 trunking, the ability to import stuff from the RadioReference DB, etc.)

 

[DaveIN]

In the original thread in regards to the announcement of the scanners, someone had mentioned (due to the differences in the PDF and flyers distributed at Dayton and the "working model" at Dayton) that a Pro-97 chassis was being used (specifically, someone had mentioned they saw evidence of Radio Shack branding and an attendee--cpunut, I think--had mentioned the use of a Pro-97 chassis for the mockup).

You were correct, I found this statement on the PSR-500 Yahoo group:

"The prototype was in a pro 97 chassis. The final one should be the same size, but, we voted to put the keyboard in the center on the front panel and the speaker low on the face of the scanner."

 

[John_M]

DaveIN Wrote:]You were correct, I found this statement on the PSR-500 Yahoo group:

"The prototype was in a pro 97 chassis. The final one should be the same size, but, we voted to put the keyboard in the center on the front panel and the speaker low on the face of the scanner."

I would have voted to keep the face layout as it was. But I'll settlefor display/keypad/ speaker.

 

[Lodis]

One more vote for larger radio chassis here. My reason is sound. Small radio = small speaker = tinny audio that is not very loud.

This is not always the case, the Icom R5 is a tiny little radio but the sound quality and volume is really good and better than some much larger radios. I do not think it is the size of the chassis as much as the quality and design of the actual speakers.

By the way, is anyone else interested in having a built in digital IC recorder in this radio like the ICOM R20 has?

 

[DaveIN]

By the way, is anyone else interested in having a built in digital IC recorder in this radio like the ICOM R20 has?

Yep, for a long time. Also SD/memory stick, memory management for data and voice recording. Neither of these features will be in this upcoming generation of radios, but many of the features requested have been, or are being realized, so it's not out of the question in the future. Keep requesting the features you want.

V-scanners go along way to help with internal memory management. I look forward to seing how easily the object oriented memory is to program and link to, and how well it will multiscan with trunked and conventional systems.

 

[ka3jjz]

Me, I'm waiting to see how good the new scanners are on milair, and more importantly, since it's becoming more and more prevalent here, if they can handle 380 mhz trunking....anxiously awaiting the first reviews (and from a little birdie who told me...a certain well known scannist who runs a popular website will have a review in the August PopComm...who it, well my lips are sealed, hi) 73s Mike

 

[Lodis]

I think it is such a shame that it is very unlikely for this new unit to have MPT1327 / MPT1343 support. It is not as popular in the US but as you know, in the UK it is a totally different situation (over 40 local MPT1327 and hundreds more EU wide).

I have had many email conversations with GRE regarding this and although they expressed interest, I do not think there is enough demand for this to be done. Even better would be a seperate EU spec radio with MPT.

I think this new radio, like someone has said previously is an evolution when it has real potential to be a revolution.

 

[E-Man]

"a certain well known scannist who runs a popular website will have a review in the August PopComm"

Thats fantastic news, I hope he gets back in the game, miss his reviews. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[windigofer]

I think it is such a shame that it is very unlikely for this new unit to have MPT1327 / MPT1343 support. It is not as popular in the US but as you know, in the UK it is a totally different situation (over 40 local MPT1327 and hundreds more EU wide).

I have had many email conversations with GRE regarding this and although they expressed interest, I do not think there is enough demand for this to be done. Even better would be a seperate EU spec radio with MPT.

I think this new radio, like someone has said previously is an evolution when it has real potential to be a revolution.

Honestly, I think if a company is going to put out an MPT1327-capable radio they are going to pretty much sell it as an EU-spec radio (that would frankly be the most sensible way to do it).

 

[emt331000]

One more vote for larger radio chassis here. My reason is sound. Small radio = small speaker = tinny audio that is not very loud.

Not necessarily. Icom got it right with their IC-R2 and R5, yet they are many times smaller than anything GRE or Uniden offers.

 

[kikito]

I think it is such a shame that it is very unlikely for this new unit to have MPT1327 / MPT1343 support.

.... and it wasn't a shame that Uniden didn't do it either?

.....I do not think there is enough demand for this to be done. Even better would be a seperate EU spec radio with MPT.

And you even know the reason....

 

[Lodis]

.... and it wasn't a shame that Uniden didn't do it either?

Of course it was a shame that Uniden didn't do an MPT capable EU spec radio but many already tried to get them interested and there was a petition sent to them too with no results.

However, Since GRE were in the process of creating new radio's I thought it would be a good opportunity to let them know of the interest in this protocol since they showed interest in our requirements and opinion.

...And you even know the reason....

I do not know the reason, I am just assuming this is the case.