Question for those who use or have used portable radios in public safety.

[12dbsinad]

Trunk radios don’t ‘stand-by.’

A radio operating on a trunk system that has a continuous control channel(P25, DMR tier 3, NXDN type C) is in receive mode ALL the time regardless if it’s passing audio or sitting silently.

Of course they draw energy to do this, it’s not like these radios can have a hamster type of ‘battery saver’.

I'm just making that as a general statement. Newer radios consume more power to just flat out run, no matter how it's configured. There is nothing untrue about that.

 

[12dbsinad]

The issue I have with the Icom radios particularly, is that the user is not aware that their subscriber radio is operating in a degraded state. The poorly written firmware randomly "decides" to cut output power without ANY audible and barely any visual warning (unless you are studying the display, user won't notice the "L" indicator. And even if they do, it isn't obvious what it means. Cryptic at best).

What model Icom radios are you referring to that do not have programmable 2 level low battery alert? Clearly either the radios have a problem or they are just flat out not set up right.

 

[SurgePGH]

When you run low on ammunition would you rely on your gun to perform at a "Reduced Power"? Your radio should provide you with ample warning that its battery is about to die. Radio communications are a safety issue. If you start to run into a situation that your battery life isn't lasting an entire shift then its time to replace the battery and/ or carry 2 batteries. Maintain your radio the same as ANY piece of safety equipment.

Just my two cents.

 

[12dbsinad]

When you run low on ammunition would you rely on your gun to perform at a "Reduced Power"? Your radio should provide you with ample warning that its battery is about to die. Radio communications are a safety issue. If you start to run into a situation that your battery life isn't lasting an entire shift then its time to replace the battery and/ or carry 2 batteries. Maintain your radio the same as ANY piece of safety equipment.

Just my two cents.

True, but the first problem is IMHO nobody should be entering a IDLH area on any type of trunking system. There are many other scary things to worry about, and horror stories that make weak batteries seem like nothing.

 

[kayn1n32008]

True, but the first problem is IMHO nobody should be entering a IDLH area on any type of trunking system. There are many other scary things to worry about, and horror stories that make weak batteries seem like nothing.

No different than going into an IDLH operating on simplex.

 

[12dbsinad]

No different than going into an IDLH operating on simplex.

And how is that?
There is no need to access the closest site which may be miles away, there is no fear of a bonk, and it eliminates the complete failures of these systems during IDLH scenes as seen time and time again. Plus, if your radio does dump you to low power, somebody will probably hear you and relay if need be. Something that's not going to happen on a TRS. There, is that not enough difference?

 

[Outerdog]

True, but the first problem is IMHO nobody should be entering a IDLH area on any type of trunking system.

There are many SMEs on the NFPA 1221 technical committee who would disagree with your statement.

 

[mmckenna]

This is a good thread, I like it.

An IDLH setting is not the time to have a radio go into a ‘run-flat’ condition and cut its transmit power to keep it operational and ‘limp home’

Attitude that my wife takes when her car is showing a low fuel indicator. Finds a reason to ask me to drive then "Oh, look, only 7 miles of fuel left!".

 

[rapidcharger]

When you run low on ammunition would you rely on your gun to perform at a "Reduced Power"?

some might prefer that it runs on reduced power instead of failing to fire though, right?
Similar to batteries dying earlier than one expected, a firearm can get jammed.

 

[rapidcharger]

An audible low battery indicator is just that. It’s telling you some very critical information:

Your radio battery is going to die.

If a FF is working on an interior attack and his radio starts to give a low battery alert, his action should be the same as if the IC has ordered the building evacuated. A FF would do the same if his BA started to tell him he is low on air.

An IDLH setting is not the time to have a radio go into a ‘run-flat’ condition and cut its transmit power to keep it operational and ‘limp home’

Ultimately it comes down to training. Training to know the difference between a low battery, power up, channel grant, channel busy, clear TX on an encrypted channel, clear RX on an encrypted channel.

Training to know what to do when you key the radio and you get a start up tone instead of a channel grant tone.

Training to know to tag out/lock out a battery that dies part way through a shift, when it usually lasts an entire shift.

Having an employer that has a properly sized battery that will last an entire shift.

Having an employer that has a proper budget for replacing consumables(batteries, antennas and audio accessories)

That's a whole lotta "having an employer that shoulds".
I don't think it's realistic to think it's always going to go down like that.

 

[kayn1n32008]

That's a whole lotta "having an employer that shoulds".
I don't think it's realistic to think it's always going to go down like that.

It’s all good until a LODD and the employers action/inaction is fingered as a root cause...

 

[rapidcharger]

You seem to think you are going to get a different answer from a field user than what has been presented to you by MTS2000des and kayn1n32008. There is a reason they are on the admin side of things, they know their ****.





And yes, I am speaking as a field user.

My directions were pretty easy to follow yet they weren't so if people can't follow simple instructions on answering this very simple question, why would I believe that people could also be expected to lock out their radio or swap their battery when they're in the middle of a shootout or in a burning building? Isn't that when a battery is most likely to die? At the worst possible time?





I didn't say they didn't know what they were talking about but I feel like the well was poisoned by their responses. Maybe I should post the question to forum for responders and not radio techs.


And it also sounded like someone else was annoyed with people turning in radios for not working when they had a low battery. First of all, that's understandable but that's also irrelevant to the question. Second of all, that's what the other tech said to do if your battery wasn't keeping a charge. ("The onus is then on the user and scene command to "lock out/tag out" any equipment indicating it is failing. ")So they're contradictory answers but again, answers I was not seeking.

 

[radioman2001]

Sounds like a lot of overthinking on this. Good maintainence will recycle the batteries every 6 months to a year (NYPD used to show up at the station house with a box of recycled good batteries and took a complete shifts batteries out of the chargers for testing). This will show marginal batteries, and unless it's a long operation the radio battery should last the full tour (whatever your department calls for) if not then you are using too small a battery or the radio is putting out too much power. Most radios call for 80% standby(no reception),15%receive 5% TX.
If you have your radio cranked to max output to make coverage then you system is poorly designed. I know the newer radios have all kinds of options installed that use power (lights,bluetooth)but that should have been included into the design from the start. Every Dept should have a policy for low battery alert whether it's going back to the house for another battery or to a superior carrying spare batteries. The low battery alert IMO was never designed to be ignored and to let the battery run down to dead.
I remember using MX and MT portables on a 911 ambulance in NYC (or NYPD with HT-220's) and we didn't have that luxury of battery alert (the MX would give out shrill tone on TX when it was dead). So we had a second battery charging back at the hospital to switch to at shift change or if the one you were using died prematurely.
So maybe the survey should include replace battery when it starts chirping.

I see that additional comments were made by the OP in the time I made mine, but what does he expect from people who are for the most part not end users but somewhat technically capable. For his survey it would have been better asked on a forum (you chose which one) that has users, and not techs. Not being desparaging, just an observation.

Our agency have over 6000 portables and deals with train movement, when battery starts chirping, they get off the tracks and either change the battery or get another radio.

 

[MTS2000des]

why would I believe that people could also be expected to lock out their radio or swap their battery when they're in the middle of a shootout or in a burning building? Isn't that when a battery is most likely to die? At the worst possible time?

You seem to have a comprehension issue. No one said to do this in the middle of such a scenario. As I explained on other mediums, the person should not be entering in the first place into an IDLH situation with equipment not operating properly. Get it? If they go in and discover a failure, they notify command (or have their fellow worker) notify command and IMMEDIATELY EXIT TO SAFETY. Competent fire departments swap out batteries at the beginning and during shifts, with freshly charged batteries. At extended operations scenes, support persons for radio and equipment support are dispatched to ensure not just radio batteries are plentiful and working, air bottles refilled, other rehab components cycled through as well. Those who have been there know what I am describing here. Fire departments master ICS with every call, even the most basic ones. It's what they do.

My directions were pretty easy to follow yet they weren't so if people can't follow simple instructions on answering this very simple question..

It's a DISCUSSION forum not a formal ham radio net. People are free to discuss until the mods shut it down (oops...did I say that? Does happen frequently here).
You should be open enough to listen to the ideas presented just as you asked- directed- others to do for you.

I didn't say they didn't know what they were talking about but I feel like the well was poisoned by their responses. Maybe I should post the question to forum for responders and not radio techs.

There are plenty of responses from those who aren't radio techs. You just aren't interested in them because they don't fit the answer you desire.

And it also sounded like someone else was annoyed with people turning in radios for not working when they had a low battery. First of all, that's understandable but that's also irrelevant to the question. Second of all, that's what the other tech said to do if your battery wasn't keeping a charge. ("The onus is then on the user and scene command to "lock out/tag out" any equipment indicating it is failing. ")So they're contradictory answers but again, answers I was not seeking.

Nothing contradictory. I'd much rather someone take me a piece of equipment they have a genuine concern and it be cleared functional and ticket closed due to user error than someone use a piece of equipment that's hazardous and in the case of the Icom radios (IC-F4161 to be exact since someone inquired) dropping it's power to a pawltry 1 watt when they need it most without them fully aware of it.

 

[MTS2000des]

If you have your radio cranked to max output to make coverage then you system is poorly designed.

Depends on the design spec. My system called for 8db in building, body worn coverage using standard RSM with 5/8 wave whip on radio in residential woodframe structure throughout a very wide metro area. To get this, the portable needs to be operated at 3 watts (800MHz) to achieve the 8dB in building with BER less than 5% and a DAQ of 3.4 or higher. In the ATP it did much better. But at the end of the day, this is what the maker calls for (3 watt portable) and this is what we feed it.

 

[radioman2001]

Exactly, it has to be built in from the beginning, and the battery size I am sure was a consideration for this kind of coverage and length of tour. Some people think if you crank the power to max the radio will work better, in most cases it doesn't.
I find the Icom dropping power a little disconcerting.

 

[MTS2000des]

Some people think if you crank the power to max the radio will work better, in most cases it doesn't.
I find the Icom dropping power a little disconcerting.

Having user select power levels is fine, for some users. The issue I have with Icom radios in particular, is that, the default settings in the cloning software, combined with the radios firmware, is to drop output to 1 watt WITHOUT AUDIBLE WARNING during transmission.

I first discovered this years ago with various Icom subscribers including the iDAS radios, but also their P25 subscribers I owned including IC-F70D and F-80D. It's a stupid feature and one they need to at least disable from the factory, and if the programmer does choose to enable it, the radio should indicate audibly and visually, that the radio has dropped power output due to a failing battery (sorry, the little "L" icon is cryptic and doesn't cut it).

 

[kayn1n32008]

Most radios call for 80% standby(no reception),15%receive 5% TX.

A trunk radio is 95%RX and 5%TX though... they don’t stop receiving, unless they are off, or transmitting.

Our agency have over 6000 portables and deals with train movement, when battery starts chirping, they get off the tracks and either change the battery or get another radio.

Bingo. Leave the IDLH environment until the dying battery is replaced.

 

[radioman2001]

I beg to differ on that, the radio when receiving audio uses more power than when it sits on the control channel.

 

[12dbsinad]

There are many SMEs on the NFPA 1221 technical committee who would disagree with your statement.

They can disagree all they want, doesn't bother me any. The NFPA for the most part are nothing more than the NRA of the fire service. They are a bunch of rich lobbyist who have something to gain on the backs of the first responders. They are not the ones however that have to attend the funerals.

I don't care what those idiots say, my real world and documented scenarios still stand.